That guy hit a lot of nails on the head IMHO. The truth should always be said aloud, even if it "offends" some people who refuse to leave the cozy confines of the 11th century.
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Afghans Murder UN Officials in Kabul
- Thread starter Ulysses31
- Start date
That guy hit a lot of nails on the head IMHO. The truth should always be said aloud, even if it "offends" some people who refuse to leave the cozy confines of the 11th century.
not to try to cause an arguement, but i am just trying to explain my previous statement
the killing needs to stop we all agree there, but first you have to get to the roots of the problem, and all of us saying they're crazy and religious and all that, well, they see things differently is how i see it. maybe the method is wrong, but the reason is right, and yes hopefully there is a way they can see that
if you wanted to stop a psycopathic killer without starting a third world war, you need to address the issues of why he "needs" to kill in the first place. i'm not saying this is you, but a lot of us get so ego minded and self absorbed, hell i'll include myself, we forget the first thing is finding an underlying problem.
every idea and belief we've had we say we'd die for, but they litterally have had to fight everyday just to exist since the dawn of time almost. has most of africa, australia, eastern asia, europe or america even been taken over time and again by cultures where violence is the only answer? mainly no. they have been ruled by civilzed people who want to establish order. their invaders almost only wanted to rape pilige and plunder and say they won the arms race. that's why i believe they have the philosophy they do.
and btw, i agree it's impossible for everyone to stop the preacher from starting this whole thing, but what i was saying is for all of us to try to have the individual self control not to fuck around with something they hold so serious. if we all policed ourselves, the problem should be solved; i didn't mean to imply we should all police everyone. you're right there. that'd be ludicrous.
and that pat condell is hilarious!!!
You didn't ask what my "desired" outcome was, you asked what I thought the endgame might look like. I gave you my answer.
You aren't starting an argument; you're just supporting your ideas and that's what you're supposed to do!
I see where you're coming from. I just don't see it as clearly as you do. You're right in that everything has a root cause, and the Middle East has had a bloody history to say the least. However people are accountable for what they do.
At one time not that long ago the Middle Eastern nations championed free thought and knowledge...the scientific method, arabic numerals etc... One could also argue they were in a renaissance when Europe was in the dark ages.
They have had long periods where they weren't the underdog and being beaten back for their beliefs. There have been times they were close friends with Jewish people and Christians were anti-semetic much like Muslims are now.
There is a root cause like you say but I don't think it goes back as far as their complete history. Something is diametrically opposed to Western thought and prone to radicalism. Many Muslims feel they don't get enough "respect" on the world stage especially from the west.
Yet we ask none in return. Perhaps it's a case of "getting what you give" they give little respect thus they receive little; or vice versa...a chicken and the egg problem. Or maybe because they sell us oil and Western ideals are the most heavily promoted globally? Perhaps they feel that undermines their core beliefs and radicalism is a way to atone for it.
It's all hearsay and conjecture though. The immediate problem is the concern; butchering people in the name of faith and no one calling for justice within the religion itself?
As far as policing ourselves. That's not a solution in my eyes; I have to stop expressing myself because you might get offended? That's bullshit I'm afraid.
The KKK offends people yet they are allowed to exist and spew nonsense because stopping them isn't fair. Same deal with the Pastor. If you posted something here on Freeones that offended me for instance, would you feel bad if I went around killing people saying your post made me do it?
You probably would have some remorse. But fundamentally you would think I'm just a wacko looking for an excuse to lose it; and that whatever you hypothetically posted that offended me wasn't intended to be and the fault lies ultimately with myself.
an assertion would be "Islam is the problem, we should criminalize it".
I made no assertion (look up the word), simply articulated what "going to war with Islam" would look like. I wasn't the one asserting we should go to war with one particular faith.
I AM for agitating all forms of 'faith-based' thinkings (y'know, otherwise known as NON-thinking dogmas). I'm for drawing cartoon muhammads, for wiping your ass with a koran, the whole gambit. Its just a book and if you can't put on your big-boy pants and behave like a civilized adult (and let your beliefs be challenged) then you'll be sitting at the kiddie table (further marginalized). This is the same thing we've done to racism. It was an out-dated and ignorant position that couldn't sustain itself. It became a mockery, a sideshow ideology. Religion, ALL religion, ought to be treated this way. So, if you're okay with people engaging in blashpemy against muhammad, don't pee your pants when folks don't want prayer in school, make fun of jeebus, or behave in a way contrary to how your invisible man tells you to live.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't advocate going to war. The Islamists will strike first, and the West will retaliate.
Um, not to quibble here, but haven't they already stuck first? And second? And third? :dunno:
so lets just clarify, then - 'retaliate' against what exactly? A Nation-State? A single entity? What, exactly? :dunno:
Again, you're advocating a particular course of action since page 2 ("Islam is the problem"). Stop speaking in vague generalities
"Its" bad - we've got to stop "it" - how? What metrics are you going for and what standard are we trying to protect?
i like your main body of dialogue, it's a good way to see what you are saying, and i agree, people are responsible for their actions, so they shouldn't get away with terrorizing innocents.
i was only trying to say the "police ourselves" part in the sense of, if you don't like someone, don't go up to them and tell them "fuck off", because that's going to start a problem, i'm definitly not saying censor yourself. merely, to obtain a peaceful solution you may have to bite your tongue a few more times than you'd prefer.
i think our fundamental freedom of speech shouldn't be trampled in any way here because the playground bully will beat you and your friends up for it, i just think if you want to debate, go at it calmly; if you want to fight, fight. what i'm saying basically we should police ourselves for is for intentional bigotry or insanity (like burning a koran), things one could say is for a peaceful point, but is obviously trying to provoke and will only end in violence.
to quote a great man:
“If you want a symbolic gesture, don't burn the flag; wash it.” -norman thomas
"It" is Islamism. I don't have a crystal ball, I'm not Nostradamus. I know the peaceful world's adversary is in effect Arab Islamism. Will we retaliate against a state? Perhaps if the perpetrators of a WMD attack on NYC are known citizens of a particular state.
We are in a 10 year war in response to 9/11. What do you think our response will be if NYC is struck by a tactical nuclear device, smallpox, dirty bomb?
Yes in effect the war has begun already. I suppose what I should've said instead of "war" was "battle".
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TheOrangeCat
AFK..being taken to the vet to get neutered.
Fricken' awesome ...
you and I agree on more than we disagree.
The US invaded and pummelled Afghanistan for what in 2001?
Because the Pushtan people hated America?
No. It was because that just happened to be where AQ was sourcing its operations. The ultimate goal was to dismantle the organization that perpetrated 9/11 and bring to justice all involved (remember OBL? what ever happened to him?).
SF and the AF had done amazing work in Afghanistan through 2001 - 2003. Remarkable performances and dealt a major blow towards that end.
It was when we felt that we had to install America Lite via "democracy" and western culture on the Pushtans that things went bananas. Now you're fighting Taliban, AQ, and Islamist extremists. The ignorance of invading Iraq only kicked a beehive of trouble (not to mention bankrupt the economy and treasure) for no real reason and ensuring that there is no way you can "win".
Does America (and these UN personnel) need to be entrenched in Afghanistan like they are now? Hells naw.
AQ isn't a nation-state its worldwide.....Africa / Eastern Europe.......all we're doing is wasting more treasure in Afghanistan
Unfortunately, you still haven't really clearly stated what your intentions are, though. You've stated a mess of rhetoric with no tangible meaning, save whipping up xenophobic angst ("argh! its dem smelly muslems!"). How do you plan to 'battle' ideology? Through force? Diplomacy at the end of a gun only invites more trouble - try using your head (because that isn't any different than what those you are warring against are doing).
eh......sort of
The US invaded and pummelled Afghanistan for what in 2001?
Because the Pushtan people hated America?
No. It was because that just happened to be where AQ was sourcing its operations. The ultimate goal was to dismantle the organization that perpetrated 9/11 and bring to justice all involved (remember OBL? what ever happened to him?).
SF and the AF had done amazing work in Afghanistan through 2001 - 2003. Remarkable performances and dealt a major blow towards that end.
It was when we felt that we had to install America Lite via "democracy" and western culture on the Pushtans that things went bananas. Now you're fighting Taliban, AQ, and Islamist extremists. The ignorance of invading Iraq only kicked a beehive of trouble (not to mention bankrupt the economy and treasure) for no real reason and ensuring that there is no way you can "win".
Does America (and these UN personnel) need to be entrenched in Afghanistan like they are now? Hells naw.
AQ isn't a nation-state its worldwide.....Africa / Eastern Europe.......all we're doing is wasting more treasure in Afghanistan
what SHOULD it be or what WILL it be?
Unfortunately, you still haven't really clearly stated what your intentions are, though. You've stated a mess of rhetoric with no tangible meaning, save whipping up xenophobic angst ("argh! its dem smelly muslems!"). How do you plan to 'battle' ideology? Through force? Diplomacy at the end of a gun only invites more trouble - try using your head (because that isn't any different than what those you are warring against are doing).
Well hopefully Islamism will collapse as a result of internal strife. The Ottoman Empire crumbled as a result of external and internal forces. I can only imagine the same might happen to Arab Islamism. The collapse might happen in one geographical location or a series of them from the Mid East to the Near East.
as long as jesus...i mean muhammed tells you to kill people i say it's ok, as long as yawheh or allah or their earthbound surrogates tell you to act in a violent and virulent way clearly you are beyond reproach ah but i joke in this reality people who use these reasons to explain their violent and antisocial behavior are simply violent people who will use whatever reason presents itself (from satan to twinkies, from god to science) to justify their actions
:hybrid:
Islamism has nothing to do with Arabs. Infact it is a multi-ethnic movement started and majorly upheld by non-Arabs, namely Persians in Iran and Afghanistan. Similarly, the current incident is in Afghanistan which involves no Arabs.
Your linking of these two completely unrelated things reflects nothing but your own ignorance.
Btw, didn't you say you liked Iran earlier? Quite paradoxical regarding your apparant far-right ignorant mindset and specifically anti-Arab agenda - unless your a Persian Nationalist or something...
Also, regarding this whole topic, the burning of the Koran was stupid and aimed at doing nothing but pissing off Muslims.
A petty, pointless action with the sole purpose of classic one-up-manship, so the Christian extremists feel like they have somehow conquered their Muslim rivals - even if inside their warped minds.
The Afghans have a ridiculously, at times stupidly, proud nature. Coupled with lack of education and a deep distrust and lack of feeling represented by their corrupt governments, this got them fuming. Then comes the Islamists, who gathered up all this anger and convinced them with their own warped logic that in order to restore their honour, and gain a point over their rivals in the US, they need to attack their closest symbol of Western Influence their - the UN.
If this tit-for-tat stupidity continues, it will achieve nothing more than driving more and more people into the hands of extremists on both sides - rage has a nasty habit of blinding even the most wise into making the stupidest choices. Oh, and this generally means much more deaths everywhere.
Like it or not, it seems while that the War in Afghanistan and many civilian deaths is pissing off people there, symbollic gestures regarding the Koran which they hold in such high regards hits so much more of a nerve with the people there. They have a different culture, and while war and death have always been part of life their, notions of dishonour and conquest and unexcusable.
The burning of the Koran in no way just pissed off the "Islamists" of "Extremists" of Taleban. Infact those people where wallowing in glee. It simply pissed off the majority of the normal population and the rage allowed many of them to join and help with the Taleban's agenda.
Gestures like that are not winning hearts and minds, nor the current wars the West is fighting. They are simply empowering the West's Enemies.
The more those bigots in the US fight with these useless, empty gestures aimed at nothing but pandering to the notions of conquering Muslims in their warped minds, the more their country as a whole loses influence and the Wars.
A petty, pointless action with the sole purpose of classic one-up-manship, so the Christian extremists feel like they have somehow conquered their Muslim rivals - even if inside their warped minds.
The Afghans have a ridiculously, at times stupidly, proud nature. Coupled with lack of education and a deep distrust and lack of feeling represented by their corrupt governments, this got them fuming. Then comes the Islamists, who gathered up all this anger and convinced them with their own warped logic that in order to restore their honour, and gain a point over their rivals in the US, they need to attack their closest symbol of Western Influence their - the UN.
If this tit-for-tat stupidity continues, it will achieve nothing more than driving more and more people into the hands of extremists on both sides - rage has a nasty habit of blinding even the most wise into making the stupidest choices. Oh, and this generally means much more deaths everywhere.
Like it or not, it seems while that the War in Afghanistan and many civilian deaths is pissing off people there, symbollic gestures regarding the Koran which they hold in such high regards hits so much more of a nerve with the people there. They have a different culture, and while war and death have always been part of life their, notions of dishonour and conquest and unexcusable.
The burning of the Koran in no way just pissed off the "Islamists" of "Extremists" of Taleban. Infact those people where wallowing in glee. It simply pissed off the majority of the normal population and the rage allowed many of them to join and help with the Taleban's agenda.
Gestures like that are not winning hearts and minds, nor the current wars the West is fighting. They are simply empowering the West's Enemies.
The more those bigots in the US fight with these useless, empty gestures aimed at nothing but pandering to the notions of conquering Muslims in their warped minds, the more their country as a whole loses influence and the Wars.
'I would rather die than stop preaching about Islam': Pastor Terry Jones defiantly refuses to stop his campaign even if it means American soldiers will die
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eans-American-soldiers-die.html#ixzz1IlK9MmF3
U.S. pastor says he will put Mohammed 'on trial' next as NATO chief condemns Koran burning for starting riots
* Killings in Kandahar follow UN attack that left up to 20 dead and 83 wounded
* Taliban claims responsibility for UN attack
* Hamid Karzai calls for U.S. congress to condemn controversial pastor
* General Petraeus condemns pastor Terry Jones
* Demonstrations against the burnings take place across the Middle East
* President Obama appeals for calm and condemns Koran burning as an 'act of bigotry' - but does not mention Florida pastor
* Norwegian, Romanian, Swedish and Nepalese nationals among those killed
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-sparks-2nd-day-violence.html#ixzz1IlKFXlzV
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eans-American-soldiers-die.html#ixzz1IlK9MmF3
U.S. pastor says he will put Mohammed 'on trial' next as NATO chief condemns Koran burning for starting riots
* Killings in Kandahar follow UN attack that left up to 20 dead and 83 wounded
* Taliban claims responsibility for UN attack
* Hamid Karzai calls for U.S. congress to condemn controversial pastor
* General Petraeus condemns pastor Terry Jones
* Demonstrations against the burnings take place across the Middle East
* President Obama appeals for calm and condemns Koran burning as an 'act of bigotry' - but does not mention Florida pastor
* Norwegian, Romanian, Swedish and Nepalese nationals among those killed
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-sparks-2nd-day-violence.html#ixzz1IlKFXlzV
TheOrangeCat
AFK..being taken to the vet to get neutered.
Yea, well let's see him prove that by taking his campaign to the people ... in Afghanistan.
