To Europeans, U.S. Universal Health Care Is Long Overdue

[Hot Mega]

This is why I can't stand you Mega. All you do is assume. Where did I ever claim I thought the war was a good idea? Where did I ever claim that spending that much money was not a bullshit idea? Why do you IMMEDIATELY lump opposing voices into one group? Why do you insist on pigeon holing people?

Don't you dare question my authenticity regarding outrage, or lack there of as you would seem to think. You don't know me, and that is a very good thing.

I will spell it out for you once more, and hopefully, maybe, you can understand this.

The government does NOT have the right to force its citizens to purchase something.

THAT is what has me mostly fired up.

Were you able to understand that? Are you going to go ahead and assume more things about me, someone you don't fucking know? Yeah, probably.....

You know, the thing that actually does intrigue me a little bit about you Mega is you do seem like a reasonably intelligent guy, but when you attack people it is less through facts and more through condescending, belittling assumptions, which in the long run, make you look like a fucking ass. You belittle and put down.....and then at the very end of your posts, you suddenly are the reasonable debater, willing in your wisdom to allow the subject of your assault to respond with their opinion.

I have to say, I like how you are the guy I love to hate around here.

Sorry I stir such strong emotions in you.:o

Never mind whether you supported the Iraq policy..my standing question to anyone as "piped up" as some of you are...where was the consistent outrage for a more egregious policy??????

Now I'm not going to do it...but I will assume a search of your posts regarding Iraq, etc. won't yield anything reflective of outrage. Likely will be tacit if not outright defense of the policy.

Not sure what the hate is about..but that would be consistent with the other con, goober, spoiled brats who can't simply disagree or make a better point but they have to resort to hate and threats.

 

[Mrs Jolly]

I Agree with everything here but we must understand that the types of individuals you have described are victims of their own ideology, for them, there is no turning back because once they realize the cold dead truth, they're in a time and place when and where it's not very comforting to change course. Seriously, who wants to abandon all of the comradery of their like minded friends when in their twenties ? Do you see how insidious the radicai lib influence is ? As they say, get to them while they're still young.

Aside : If you grew up in a single parent home under the authority of your mother and you were left at the hands of the public school so called "educators" and today you are not an angry radical anti capitalist liberal, but just a responsible working citizen who pays his or her taxes, carries their own weight and more, well, I salute you ! :hatsoff:

During school, all through high school and 2 years of college (AS deg.) I'll always remember taking everything that I was taught with a grain of salt because more often than not, I would prove the teachers wrong . . but not to their faces, only at home. .

Agreed, it's also a scam to naturalize about 20 million additional new needy democrats to the rank . . . Wait a minute ! Did you say 20 million more legal citizens into the American society ? but . . .but . what about the environment ? I guess that the environment takes a back seat to winning elections.


I can already see the democratic party sign up desk at the naturalization tent . . . :1orglaugh

"Do Not Pass GO until ....... "

You got taught by a gang of incompetants! I find that so hard to believe.

If you have the time, could you pop over to MIT and do a course on cold fusion? That way you could take it all with 'a pinch of salt' and solve the global energy crisis when you get home

 

[Crazy4theBrat]

Not sure what the hate is about..but that would be consistent with the other con, goober, spoiled brats who can't simply disagree or make a better point but they have to resort to hate and threats.

You are right about this, Mega. Let's make sure to get it on the record though, that there just as much hatred coming from the left. You make it sound like the right has a lock on it, and that is just not the case.

I'm not trying to single you out. Your post just happened to be the first one I happened to read as I was looking for the bottom of the page.

These political posts on here are seem like an excercise in futility because nobody on either side wants to take the time to relax and open their minds to what the other side is even saying. Both sides are SO sure they are right that they refuse to even acknowledge the possibility that maybe someone on the other side might have something of value to add.

 

[sporty_carr]

:lame:

It's ok mrtrebus, I love you too.

Now get your cute little ass over here and let's cuddle. :lovecoupl

The government does NOT have the right to force its citizens to purchase something.

THAT is what has me mostly fired up.

Yes.

I think it's actually kind of scary how they passed this through, too. What next? What if Obama and pals decide tomorrow that they want to make guns illegal? I know what will happen........a civil war. I personally don't own a gun because I don't feel I need to, but I know several people that do. They all say the same thing too. If a law like that passed, let the goverment try to get our guns. I don't blame them either. People have a right to defend themselves. Anyway, with the way this Obamacare was passed I feel we're headed down that kind of slippery slope. :2 cents:

 

[Hot Mega]

You are right about this, Mega. Let's make sure to get it on the record though, that there just as much hatred coming from the left. You make it sound like the right has a lock on it, and that is just not the case.

I'm not trying to single you out. Your post just happened to be the first one I happened to read as I was looking for the bottom of the page.

These political posts on here are seem like an excercise in futility because nobody on either side wants to take the time to relax and open their minds to what the other side is even saying. Both sides are SO sure they are right that they refuse to even acknowledge the possibility that maybe someone on the other side might have something of value to add.

I tend to agree about the general incivility that can foam up on both sides....

I just see the vitriol on the right as being on a different level. The nooses, racial slurs, threats of revolt, threats in general are wayyyy over the top.

More confusing (but not really) is their wrapping of their perspective in some excuse for our constitution. In reality, their words and actions couldn't be more removed from the ideals our constitution represents...the virtual antithesis really.

 

[Galactic]

Sorry I stir such strong emotions in you.:o

Never mind whether you supported the Iraq policy..my standing question to anyone as "piped up" as some of you are...where was the consistent outrage for a more egregious policy??????

Now I'm not going to do it...but I will assume a search of your posts regarding Iraq, etc. won't yield anything reflective of outrage. Likely will be tacit if not outright defense of the policy.

Not sure what the hate is about..but that would be consistent with the other con, goober, spoiled brats who can't simply disagree or make a better point but they have to resort to hate and threats.

No hate. STRONG disagreement with your Socialistic views and general attitude towards the "other side." My opinion.

As far as Iraq....search all you want brother.....I wasn't even a member here during the heyday of the outrage, as you call it. Regardless, it is not something I am going to go into at this point in time....there are FAR bigger fish to fry right now, right here at home.

I think you misunderstand the expression, "piped up." It means speak up. I never really thought about different interpretations for it.....I have to admit, your first post to me regarding that made me laugh.

I also would like to point out that I never threatened you. I may use strong words when I am fired up about something, but I don't threaten people, and I certainly did not threaten you, my liberal nemesis.

Name calling.....yeah.....a little......ehh......what can I say....my emotions sometimes get the better of me.

I do think you are dead wrong, however......I think there was ONE time I agreed with you, but I am not even certain of that.

We can agree to disagree on policies, etc. all day long......I STRONGLY disagree with how you present yourself to the opposition most of the time, and hence that is where the fire came from.

I do not apologize for that.

 

[Hot Mega]

No hate. STRONG disagreement with your Socialistic views and general attitude towards the "other side." My opinion.

"hate"=your word not mine.:dunno:

As far as Iraq....search all you want brother.....I wasn't even a member here during the heyday of the outrage, as you call it. Regardless, it is not something I am going to go into at this point in time....there are FAR bigger fish to fry right now, right here at home.

Now I'm going to check.:tongue:

I think You Misunderstand the expression, "piped up." It means speak up. I never really thought about different interpretations for it.....I have to admit, your first post to me regarding that made me laugh.

"pipe up" I concluded was the opposite of "pipe down". Now I admit to adding my own, what I thought was a comical twist to it. Forgive?:o

I also would like to point out that I never threatened you. I may use strong words when I am fired up about something, but I don't threaten people, and I certainly did not threaten you, my liberal nemesis.

I didn't take what you were saying nor was I accusing you specifically of threats. I suggested you were in the same mold as those who engage in such silliness in a majority rule g'ment.

Name calling.....yeah.....a little......ehh......what can I say....my emotions sometimes get the better of me.

I do think you are dead wrong, however......I think there was ONE time I agreed with you, but I am not even certain of that.

We can agree to disagree on policies, etc. all day long......I STRONGLY disagree with how you present yourself to the opposition most of the time, and hence that is where the fire came from.

I do not apologize for that.

Yeah...I get under some people's skin. Hopefully while I'm under there I provoke thought if you're not too incorrigible.:2 cents:

 

[marquis2]

As an outsider (but one who gratefully lives in a country with socialised health care) I'm struck in forums at the number of posters who trot out slogans and phrases as if they were incontrovertible truth.Like "socialism is equal distribution of misery" in this context , it doesn't bear examination but of course it doesn't get examined as it's believed as gospel truth.The arguments raised against socialised medicine amount to inbuilt prejudice and an unwillingness to think things through THOROUGHLY, ie not from an entrenched position.Look at countries which have free (at the point of delivery) medicine and you see that it can work.Of course it's a financial burden but so is insurance.People say "the US is different" which is true but it has always prided itself in being a "can do" society. A healthy population means a healthy workforce and the government is acting in the public interest if it tries to bring in universal healthcare.

 

[24788]

Let's all remember that the whole world was happy when we got to WW2, but the Russians did take Berlin for the most part. Just saying.

 

[Galactic]

A healthy population means a healthy workforce and the government is acting in the public interest if it tries to bring in universal healthcare.

Here is the difference though. Some of us believe as many as our founders did that it is not the governments place to act in our interest if it means demanding that we purchase something. That's not the way it works here, or at least, it is not the way it is supposed to operate.

Again, I must reiterate that that many of us, many average citizens, do think that the system needs a serious overhaul.....there really can be no doubt about that.....where we disagree vehemently with the Socialist in the White House (and he is not the first.....we are still reeling from FDR, and others tried too....W. Wilson, Teddy...) is that it is not in the government's job description to demand we purchase something.

 

[Hot Mega]

As an outsider (but one who gratefully lives in a country with socialised health care) I'm struck in forums at the number of posters who trot out slogans and phrases as if they were incontrovertible truth.Like "socialism is equal distribution of misery" in this context , it doesn't bear examination but of course it doesn't get examined as it's believed as gospel truth.The arguments raised against socialised medicine amount to inbuilt prejudice and an unwillingness to think things through THOROUGHLY, ie not from an entrenched position.Look at countries which have free (at the point of delivery) medicine and you see that it can work.Of course it's a financial burden but so is insurance.People say "the US is different" which is true but it has always prided itself in being a "can do" society. A healthy population means a healthy workforce and the government is acting in the public interest if it tries to bring in universal healthcare.

Simply put...there are merchants of buzzwords here in the US who make a living out of vilifying words and concepts to keep the zombies who listen to them herded and corralled.

Funniest thing is their belief that through listening to these idiots they become more enlightened on issues as opposed to the reality of being spun into thoughtless incorrigibility.

 

[Mrs Jolly]

Here is the difference though. Some of us believe as many as our founders did that it is not the governments place to act in our interest if it means demanding that we purchase something. That's not the way it works here, or at least, it is not the way it is supposed to operate.

Again, I must reiterate that that many of us, many average citizens, do think that the system needs a serious overhaul.....there really can be no doubt about that.....where we disagree vehemently with the Socialist in the White House (and he is not the first.....we are still reeling from FDR, and others tried too....W. Wilson, Teddy...) is that it is not in the government's job description to demand we purchase something.

I think of all the claptrap around American exceptionalism this is the bit that grinds me down the most. The eternal idea that the place of America in the world is solely dependent on internal personalities, events and policies. Like the rest of the world is some static entity that solidified into it's ways about 1950 never to attempt a change in thinking thereafter and waits around to react to the US.

An awful lot of pundits keep pushing the notion that with a domestic tax decrease here or an entitlement program eradication there that China will magically fold up it's manufacturing operation and ship it back to Michigan and that India will stop producing more engineers than the US does drug dealers.

America can keep waiting for this iconic individual to take up the mantle in the Whitehouse. The one who will roll his sleeves up and build a better tomorrow along the lines of a glorious yesterday. Or it can start to stare down realities. The US was paying over the odds by a very big number for the health care services it was getting. This was like giving a five yard start to any and all competitors in a 100 yard dash. The system was not going to reform itself. It barely has now, and success is not guaranteed. Hopefully it can move away from these idiotic stances that all problems can be cleared up by having a quick gander at the federalist papers.

 

[Galactic]

I think of all the claptrap around American exceptionalism this is the bit that grinds me down the most. The eternal idea that the place of America in the world is solely dependent on internal personalities, events and policies. Like the rest of the world is some static entity that solidified into it's ways about 1950 never to attempt a change in thinking thereafter and waits around to react to the US.

An awful lot of pundits keep pushing the notion that with a domestic tax decrease here or an entitlement program eradication there that China will magically fold up it's manufacturing operation and ship it back to Michigan and that India will stop producing more engineers than the US does drug dealers.

America can keep waiting for this iconic individual to take up the mantle in the Whitehouse. The one who will roll his sleeves up and build a better tomorrow along the lines of a glorious yesterday. Or it can start to stare down realities. The US was paying over the odds by a very big number for the health care services it was getting. This was like giving a five yard start to any and all competitors in a 100 yard dash. The system was not going to reform itself. It barely has now, and success is not guaranteed. Hopefully it can move away from these idiotic stances that all problems can be cleared up by having a quick gander at the federalist papers.

Yeahhh......what exactly do your first two paragraphs have to do with what you quoted from me? Oh great.....another "expert"......I love how all these people who live elsewhere love Barry O. soooo much.......you know, I might too if I had somewhere else to call my home and the guy wasn't trying to change INTERNAL laws and regs.

 

[CunningStunts]

Europeans aren't the only ones...

Fidel Castro hails Obama, Democrats and the healthcare deal.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Cuban-leader-applauds-US-apf-124808403.html?x=0&.v=1

"Cuban revolutionary leader Fidel Castro on Thursday declared passage of American health care reform "a miracle" and a major victory for Obama's presidency, but couldn't help chide the United States for taking so long to enact what communist Cuba achieved decades ago.

Cuba provides free health care and education to all its citizens, and heavily subsidizes food, housing, utilities and transportation, policies that have earned it global praise. The government has warned that some of those benefits are no longer sustainable given Cuba's ever-struggling economy, though it has so far not made major changes."

Ha, good model to follow... after all, look at the awesome conditions Cubans live in.

 

[Hot Mega]

Europeans aren't the only ones...

Fidel Castro hails Obama, Democrats and the healthcare deal.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Cuban-leader-applauds-US-apf-124808403.html?x=0&.v=1

"Cuban revolutionary leader Fidel Castro on Thursday declared passage of American health care reform "a miracle" and a major victory for Obama's presidency, but couldn't help chide the United States for taking so long to enact what communist Cuba achieved decades ago.

Cuba provides free health care and education to all its citizens, and heavily subsidizes food, housing, utilities and transportation, policies that have earned it global praise. The government has warned that some of those benefits are no longer sustainable given Cuba's ever-struggling economy, though it has so far not made major changes."

Ha, good model to follow... after all, look at the awesome conditions Cubans live in.

With all of the other 'free' allies we have which have some version of this that we are joining too (like, everybody else)...Cuba is your example that stands out in all of this??:nono:

 

[CunningStunts]

Businesses already reporting large increases in expenditures to enact the new bill's provisions... ATT estimates an initial cost of $1 BILLION.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36055150/ns/business/

 

[Hot Mega]

Businesses already reporting large increases in expenditures to enact the new bill's provisions... ATT estimates an initial cost of $1 BILLION.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36055150/ns/business/

Oh geez...I wonder how all of the foreign based corporations compete under similar systems in other countries.

 

[georges]

Well, the point Georges is that "working people" are not a race that one is born into. If you put forth the effort and are fortunate in some respects..hopefully you will be employed more than you're unemployed. But make no mistake, "working people" have jobs generally at the largess of someone else. Meaning there is the possibility that you can become among the non "working people" through no fault of your own.

Just because you happen to be unemployed for a time, does that mean if you contracted some miserable disease that's easily treatable you should die from it just because you can't temporarily afford the treatment?? Or in the case where the g'ment stopped taking your taxes to pay for universal protection from fires....that you're property should be allowed to burn to the ground if you temporarily couldn't afford insurance that paid for the bill for the fire dept. coming out?? Or you temporarily don't have the money to pay for a private education where there would be no public education or etc., etc., etc.....

In those cases it's only reasonable for a g'ment to step in and remove the up and down nature from those circumstance it is a common sense practicality IMO.

Problem is that a lot of American people buy 90% of things at credit. Credit means owing your bank money and living at the neck of your bank is fucking stupid. If people are not responsible to manage their own money, I see no reason at all to help them. Forced charity will not work. I have seen several tv coverages about unemployed people in the USA. Some of them worked in towns that lost their industries but other live in the trashy ghetto suburbs where underground economy and violence are the rule. I don't see myself helping someone who is a gang member and works for the under ground economy.
People should always foresee and spare money for unexpected situations if they can't do that they are stupid and totally unaware of the real situation. Managing money is important if you don't know how to manage it, you don't deserve help. People who don't know how to manage a small revenue will never know how to manage a big one. Assisting people is never a good thing, making them responsible for their ownselves is a good one.

 

[mrtrebus]

Where do you get this figure of 90% from?!?
Assisting people is never a good thing?!? What a load of rubbish.

 

[marquis2]

Problem is that a lot of American people buy 90% of things at credit. Credit means owing your bank money and living at the neck of your bank is fucking stupid. If people are not responsible to manage their own money, I see no reason at all to help them. Forced charity will not work. I have seen several tv coverages about unemployed people in the USA. Some of them worked in towns that lost their industries but other live in the trashy ghetto suburbs where underground economy and violence are the rule. I don't see myself helping someone who is a gang member and works for the under ground economy.
People should always foresee and spare money for unexpected situations if they can't do that they are stupid and totally unaware of the real situation. Managing money is important if you don't know how to manage it, you don't deserve help. People who don't know how to manage a small revenue will never know how to manage a big one. Assisting people is never a good thing, making them responsible for their ownselves is a good one.

There's nothing wrong with buying things on credit as long as it's under control.The only way people can own their house is by paying it off in stages;if you need a car to get to work it's reasonable to borrow the money to buy one.It's only when you borrow more than you can afford to repay that the trouble arises.
Making people responsible for themselves is a worthy ideal but in many cases unrealistic.This is the real world and even today many people aren't in control of their circumstances.There aren't enough jobs to go round, some people simply haven't got the resources (inner or tangible) to better themselves.As for the notion that assisting people is never a good thing this is one of those homespun "truths" which people bring out without thinking things through.It doesn't bear even the most superficial degree of inspection.Most of us have got to where we are today because we were helped.If we were lucky it was by our parents.
As for sparing money for unexpected situations there are many people who, after making provision for housing and food have nothing left to spare.It's not merely a matter of money management, I know some people who make a little go a long way but you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.