But without that society to recognise you as an individual you are nothing. It is the your best interest as an individual to keep the society which keeps you as healthy as possible, this is why social programs such as these are important.
To Europeans, U.S. Universal Health Care Is Long Overdue
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But without that society to recognise you as an individual you are nothing. It is the your best interest as an individual to keep the society which keeps you as healthy as possible, this is why social programs such as these are important.
According to Lock/Hobbes social contract theory (on which the US Constitution rests), we only are a society for mutual protection in order to maintain our freedom that we could not have in a "state of nature" with everyone on their own.
Remember that taxes are a use of force by the government to take money from individuals for the maintenance of the government's job to keep us free. IMHO, that's the ONLY legitimate reason to forceably take money from individuals that they earned. Taking money from people (in essence taking part of their labor since they EARNED that money) to give money or services to others is NOT a proper use of US Federal power. And if you believe that the US Constitution got it right, then it is never permissible for the Federal government to do so.
Now the states are another story... Title 10 of the Constitution give THEM much broader power in their domains, but we'll save that topic for another thread.
They seem to be doing just fine. Their hospitals aren't dank cellars with flickering lights.
We are not individuals. One the one hand we thunder away at who is an American and who must be deported. On the other hand America's warped version of Capitalism replaces the Gov't with the Private Corporation. No individual can stand up against the Corporation and even a group of elected officials can't stand against the Corporation.
Globalization, forced down the throats of the American Individual, has rendered all talk of American Individualism moot. Those days are over.
Speaking broadly to everyone in this thread...
It's also dishonest to use a certain group of people--minorities--as a scape goat for all the financial problems that affect the U.S. today. Minorities are not given the same opportunity from birth as "average white American." If angry white guy would stop hollering for one minute and realize that when people have no hope at "the American dream" than what do they live for? Where is the motivation? If the systems of America--healthcare, legal, education, employment opportunity--are cut off from or slanted against a group of people from Day 1, than how does that make a nation stronger? Won't that just continue the in-fighting and the inequality that has existed since day 1 of the founding of the nation?
Taxes are the price of civilization. The present healthcare system is based on private health insurers abusing the American individual in order to maintain profit margins. Some reform policies finally protect the American from these abuses. People who get health bills declined by their insurer are people that have had healthcare. They aren't people living on the street. They are people who paid into a system that promised them coverage and never delivered it. That kind of system needs to be torn down and replaced by something better. All Congress passed was an end to corporate bullshit but it isn't true Universal Healthcare. For one thing, we have to "hope" that it will actually lead to cheaper insurance premiums for people. What if it doesn't? What if private insurers just say, "Thanks for the new customers but our rates are still going to increase 39% this year"
How does that help people and lead to an efficient system?
Globalization, forced down the throats of the American Individual, has rendered all talk of American Individualism moot. Those days are over.
Speaking broadly to everyone in this thread...
It's also dishonest to use a certain group of people--minorities--as a scape goat for all the financial problems that affect the U.S. today. Minorities are not given the same opportunity from birth as "average white American." If angry white guy would stop hollering for one minute and realize that when people have no hope at "the American dream" than what do they live for? Where is the motivation? If the systems of America--healthcare, legal, education, employment opportunity--are cut off from or slanted against a group of people from Day 1, than how does that make a nation stronger? Won't that just continue the in-fighting and the inequality that has existed since day 1 of the founding of the nation?
Taxes are the price of civilization. The present healthcare system is based on private health insurers abusing the American individual in order to maintain profit margins. Some reform policies finally protect the American from these abuses. People who get health bills declined by their insurer are people that have had healthcare. They aren't people living on the street. They are people who paid into a system that promised them coverage and never delivered it. That kind of system needs to be torn down and replaced by something better. All Congress passed was an end to corporate bullshit but it isn't true Universal Healthcare. For one thing, we have to "hope" that it will actually lead to cheaper insurance premiums for people. What if it doesn't? What if private insurers just say, "Thanks for the new customers but our rates are still going to increase 39% this year"
How does that help people and lead to an efficient system?
Jagger69
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Virtually this same thread and the arguments that are being made in it existed on this board before this one so I really don't see the point in arguing about it all over again. The law got passed and it's a reality now. As I mentioned in a prior thread, I am old enough (barely!) to remember this same hysteria and panic when Medicare was passed. There were widespread predictions that everyone's taxes would go up exorbitantly to pay for it and it would spell doom for the American health care system. Neither of those things happened. My guess is the same thing will occur with this.
That said, it's less than 2 weeks before baseball season starts!! :nanner:
That said, it's less than 2 weeks before baseball season starts!! :nanner:
^
And how likely is it for Medicare to ever be repealed? It will never go away. The Republicans hope it will go away through being unfunded, but it will never go away. We're going to have to stop playing Global Policeman, reign in the Military, and address Medicare. Ah, something for another day......
And how likely is it for Medicare to ever be repealed? It will never go away. The Republicans hope it will go away through being unfunded, but it will never go away. We're going to have to stop playing Global Policeman, reign in the Military, and address Medicare. Ah, something for another day......
Jagger69
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Yes and I also just love it when these same politicians who rant and rave about the evils of government-paid health insurance actually have government-paid health insurance for themselves. :1orglaugh :wtf:
You're mixing a LOT of assertions and assumptions in that post and not a lot of facts. You keep comparing the US to Europe, but remember that the US fought many wars to be FREE of the "old world." So that comparison is null and void in my opinion, and most of those coutries also don't have to deal with several third world nations on it's doorstep. We are different, and we are a nation of INDIVIDUALS endowed with explicit rights to freedom as guaranteed in the founding documents of this country. If you don't agree, then honestly, either go somewhere that honors the nation/society over the rights of us as individuals, or prepare to fight those that do believe in the . :2 cents:
For your consideration, an excerpt from the US Declaration of Independence:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..."
:thumbsup:
But what are the concepts of "society" or "individuality" worth without the broader members of such a group agreeing to their meaning? This is my fundamental point, without the greater society your concept of the "individual" is completely meaningless and that this is why these concepts survive. Lock/Hobbes may be correct, societies do in fact form for the sake of individual protection and welfare. But while we're here speaking from the depths of a society is it not our duty to take care of its existing members, all of whom (including us) recognise us as individuals.
Use of force and by force are strong terms and ones I disagree with, taxes are a mutual agreement between the government and its people for services for the good of the collective (not always but you get what I'm saying). Now I'm sure in a libertarian society (c'mon people anarchy sounds far cooler than "libertarian"
) where small groups of people use their time and resources voluntarily for the good of their small society free from big government bureaucracy and intrusion. But what's wrong with this picture? The US is not like this at all. The vast metropolis that is the majority of the united states does not and will not work like this. Taxes are a necessity to all who live in such a society. If you're going to live as part of the collective then it's your duty to be apart of it and you must be prepared to give a little something towards its working. Too long has their been a gulf between those who can and cannot afford to continue to be healthy. This is a step in the right direction. How can a person not be "free" as you put it if they are not healthy?[Is this coherent? Probably not.....]
Forcing to pay working people other for non willing to work people is anti democratic. I dislike social healthcare leechers and unfortunately they are too fucking many in Europe.
Because the obligation of sharing someone else's misery makes you a wonderful human being???None has a duty to assist and pay for others
wrong wrong :yesyes: The stupidity of leftist governments like the Obama administration is evident. Everyone knows that socialism is the equal distribution of misery.
None of us likes paying money to leechers in society but this isn't in any way a reason for not having a socialised health system.Anything you do will be good for some and less good for others; change the system and you benefit and upset a different set of groups.
I'm not sure what you mean by leechers anyway.Life is dynamic and you pass from one state into another.A 5 year old child and a 90 year old pensioner ,people out of work or sick are in a sense leechers.We are all payers at one stage and leechers at another.
It's not a matter of being a wonderful human being.It gives as well as takes.It might be you who gets afflicted with a dreadful chronic or life threatening illness.
I'm not a socialist myself, I realise that socialism can't generate wealth.But socialism simply means people working together when it benefits them to do so and this is the case here.In the UK for example the Health Service, although put into effect by a socialist government, was in fact the result of an across the board consensus and initiated by a conservative, Winston Churchill.
Petra
Cult Mother and Simpering Cunt
As both an American AND a resident of a European country all I have to say is unless a European has lived in America and dealt with health care there, they will never understand exactly why people are pissed. Just like an American who has never lived elsewhere will never understand other countries health care scheme.
Ah I see they are all non willing to work people. Of course they are not!
But what are the concepts of "society" or "individuality" worth without the broader members of such a group agreeing to their meaning? This is my fundamental point, without the greater society your concept of the "individual" is completely meaningless and that this is why these concepts survive. Lock/Hobbes may be correct, societies do in fact form for the sake of individual protection and welfare. But while we're here speaking from the depths of a society is it not our duty to take care of its existing members, all of whom (including us) recognise us as individuals.
Use of force and by force are strong terms and ones I disagree with, taxes are a mutual agreement between the government and its people for services for the good of the collective (not always but you get what I'm saying). Now I'm sure in a libertarian society (c'mon people anarchy sounds far cooler than "libertarian"
[Is this coherent? Probably not.....]
I follow... and really, it all comes down to two questions: (1) Why does government exist? and (2) Is the state or the individual citizen paramount (i.e., who serves which entity)?
The answers to those two questions really shape your views on every political issue IMHO. I have a good friend of mine who is a card carrying socialist, and I'm a pretty hard core libertarian/classical conservative. We can't talk politics very often because we fundamentally disagree on these questions, and therefore cannot even frame a debate more times than not, much less have it
Well, the point Georges is that "working people" are not a race that one is born into. If you put forth the effort and are fortunate in some respects..hopefully you will be employed more than you're unemployed. But make no mistake, "working people" have jobs generally at the largess of someone else. Meaning there is the possibility that you can become among the non "working people" through no fault of your own.
Just because you happen to be unemployed for a time, does that mean if you contracted some miserable disease that's easily treatable you should die from it just because you can't temporarily afford the treatment?? Or in the case where the g'ment stopped taking your taxes to pay for universal protection from fires....that you're property should be allowed to burn to the ground if you temporarily couldn't afford insurance that paid for the bill for the fire dept. coming out?? Or you temporarily don't have the money to pay for a private education where there would be no public education or etc., etc., etc.....
In those cases it's only reasonable for a g'ment to step in and remove the up and down nature from those circumstance it is a common sense practicality IMO.
I follow... and really, it all comes down to two questions: (1) Why does government exist? and (2) Is the state or the individual citizen paramount (i.e., who serves which entity)?
The answers to those two questions really shape your views on every political issue IMHO. I have a good friend of mine who is a card carrying socialist, and I'm a pretty hard core libertarian/classical conservative. We can't talk politics very often because we fundamentally disagree on these questions, and therefore cannot even frame a debate more times than not, much less have it
The evolution of the debate it simply comes to appraising the situation broadly and concluding it is in a country's interest to provide a basic education, health care, civil and military defenses. :dunno:
All of the minutia and techno-babble back and forth gets pretty silly beyond that.
Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
As both an American and a European (insofar as the Brits pretend like they're not part of Europe), I understand part of the outrage. I lived in the States for the past twenty one years, supported for most of those by my single mother. In the early 2000's, she got laid off (as did virtually everyone in positions like hers), and found several other jobs over the next few years (from which she was also quickly laid off from, as there simply wasn't anything in her line of work to go around).
The point of this anecdote is that we had paid our own health insurance. And it was expensive. For $70 a month, I got one (just one) doctor's visit per calender year. Otherwise, it was only useful after, I don't remember exactly, some thousands of dollars of medical coverage. That $70 a month was my second biggest bill after rent (and was scheduled to go up to $100 last summer rather abruptly, which I had to cancel and simply be without). And I got virtually nothing for it - but I was in danger of being financially obliterated without it, from some fluke or accident which I'd likely have no control over.
That to me is an awful system. I believe the US system has indeed long needed an overhaul. I won't comment one way or the other on Obama's particular angle at this overhaul, as I haven't looked into the details (and be warned, most if not everything you read about this in the papers is serving someone's agenda - on both sides. The media is little more than a PR tool).
If nothing else, how much of a competitive edge do companies abroad get over US companies (like automakers, for example) because their companies don't have to pay their employees' health insurance?
I haven't been living in the UK long, but the few times I've visited my general practice, I've only waited in line once (behind one person), and I've got my appointments within two weeks (which is no worse than my doctor's office back in the States).
In the end, you end up paying for it one way or the other.
My God, for the first time ever, you are right. It is about our choice. It is about our freedom. It is about the fundamental principle of the CITIZEN deciding what happens in this country through the voices of elected officials, NOT the other way. You're damn right if I want to end up in a gutter, it is my CHOICE to do so. You're damn right that if I CHOOSE to protect myself with health care, I will do so. This whole debate is not about health care....it is about the freedoms we are losing to a faceless and power hungry government no longer by and for the people.
You asked your wife's uncle, one guy, and don't even understand that while you tried to spin what he said to "prove" your point, you and he showed exactly why this is considered a travesty over here.
Once again, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. You don't fucking live here. Enjoy your socialistic lifestyle....many here are hard at work figuring out how to fight this monstrosity, but I don't expect you to know/understand that because, again, you don't fucking live here.
Facetious
Moderated
Re: To Europeans, U.S. Universal Health Care Is Long Overdue
With all due respect to our european friends and I mean that whole heartedly and sincerely. . . . Who gives a rats behind ? Why must we be comparable to anybody else, if you're a disgruntled American then ditch ! Go the expatriate route if necessary, jus' git ! Stop running down the nation that has offered it's citizens the best opportunities in terms of becoming independent and self sustaining as individuals.
Maybe, just maybe there will be something left to rebuild on after this george soros puppet president is done destroying every private sector he gets his dirty hands on . . just maybe :dunno:
Oust the culture of undisciplined, lazy, laid back, unmotivated and dependent I say !
Learn to set an alarm clock every night before turning the lights out . . . they likely never had a father to teach them a work ethic is the trouble.
With all due respect to our european friends and I mean that whole heartedly and sincerely. . . . Who gives a rats behind ? Why must we be comparable to anybody else, if you're a disgruntled American then ditch ! Go the expatriate route if necessary, jus' git ! Stop running down the nation that has offered it's citizens the best opportunities in terms of becoming independent and self sustaining as individuals.
Maybe, just maybe there will be something left to rebuild on after this george soros puppet president is done destroying every private sector he gets his dirty hands on . . just maybe :dunno:
Oust the culture of undisciplined, lazy, laid back, unmotivated and dependent I say !
Learn to set an alarm clock every night before turning the lights out . . . they likely never had a father to teach them a work ethic is the trouble.
SO, if people "don't fucking live here" they can't comment or understand an issue?!? What a load of balderdash! :thefinger
This is not the first time that someone who doesn't reside here has made bold comments and an "understanding" of topics that don't concern them at all.....and I for one am sick and tired of it. I don't mind comments at all, as long as they are not draped in a thick blanket of condescending and elitist attitudes......there is a history here, THAT is why my first post is a little heated.....and oh yeah, :thefinger right back at you mate!
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