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The 'You lie!' aftermath: The "other" Joe Wilson
- Thread starter Hot Mega
- Start date
Jagger69
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Exactly. :thumbsup:
meesterperfect
Hiliary 2020
Cop out.......the same could easily be said about his deciphles.
And not many hate the guy, they just dont trust him.
I , for example have seen him as a wolf in sheeps clothing since I first heard his name and resarched his past.
I do agree, A president should never be inturupted while speaking, just as the queen of england shouldn't have her back patted.
I am however giving this post the double standard of the week award cause we know damn well the same people critisizing this would be and were all for it when it happened to a republican.
The irony runs thick and very deep in that post. Indeed. Don't think this will be the last time we someone react before thinking, something they have been fairly good at restraining in the past. But with the current "administration", I will not be at ALL surprised to see more and more of these outbursts.
And when they happen, I will again be STOKED.
Good day.
Touche'
Indeed if it does I will again be STOKED as well. Certainly this outburst has in near terms been more costly to Wilson and possibly his cause than to his intended target.
Three cheers for the Joe Wilson peanut gallery!! :glugglug::1orglaugh
:jester::computer::rofl2:
Nice cake batter all that's missing is 1 part GOPer POTUS this happened to, 1 part Demo Legislative heckler saying he lies in the middle of his address and 1 part people who were all for it when it happened.:wave2:
While it's definitely out of line for a Congressman to interrupt the President's speech so rudely, with such an accusation, what TRIPLES the impropriety of the whole thing is the fact that Wilson's accusation was blatantly false.
During the middle of a presidential speech is certainly NOT the best time to try to start an argument, to disrupt things, certainly. Apparently Wilson thought that his point was so urgent, and so unfairly supressed, that he HAD to get it out, for the sake of the people, for the sake of truth, right at that moment.
MAYBE such an interruption could have been justified when, say, Bush or Cheney were spouting off lies about how "we know" that Saddam possessed WMDs. That might have been a choice time to put propriety aside, if there was any chance it could have made an impact and ultimately helped to spare some loss of American blood and treasure.
But here, Wilson's bloated ego and Cassandra complex were dangerously merged with his ignorance, because he's just flat wrong, and Obama, regardless of what you think of his plan, was factually correct about the health care and illegal immigrant facts:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...e-health-care-illegal-immigrants-health-bill/
So, the most important thing to keep in mind, to focus on here, was Wilson's inaccuracy. His boorish behavior was just a "bonus" to his willful ignorance.
During the middle of a presidential speech is certainly NOT the best time to try to start an argument, to disrupt things, certainly. Apparently Wilson thought that his point was so urgent, and so unfairly supressed, that he HAD to get it out, for the sake of the people, for the sake of truth, right at that moment.
MAYBE such an interruption could have been justified when, say, Bush or Cheney were spouting off lies about how "we know" that Saddam possessed WMDs. That might have been a choice time to put propriety aside, if there was any chance it could have made an impact and ultimately helped to spare some loss of American blood and treasure.
But here, Wilson's bloated ego and Cassandra complex were dangerously merged with his ignorance, because he's just flat wrong, and Obama, regardless of what you think of his plan, was factually correct about the health care and illegal immigrant facts:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...e-health-care-illegal-immigrants-health-bill/
So, the most important thing to keep in mind, to focus on here, was Wilson's inaccuracy. His boorish behavior was just a "bonus" to his willful ignorance.
But you don't seem to see.....it's not "his cause".......it's ALL of our cause.......THAT'S why he let out with an outburst.....an outburst of his feelings, concerns, and beliefs......not just his mind you....the cause of concern shared by many who believed in, and STILL believe, in Thomas Jefferson's call for a SMALL and UNOBTRUSIVE role in the governments' day to day affairs in OUR lives.
Three cheers for America the way she was INTENDED....the way she WAS.....and the GLORY SHE SHALL RETURN TO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7xF1RGCQY
Give us a break, Galactic. I don't care how sincere and heartfelt his "feelings, concerns, and beliefs" are, they shouldn't carry more weight in the debate than the FACTS, and the fact is that Wilson was himself lying when he claimed that Obama was lying about illegal immigrants NOT being eligible for benefits under his, or the House, reform plan. Psychopaths can have sincere and heartfelt feelings, concerns and beliefs - that doesn't mean we should take their warnings about the poison that baby Jesus put in our orange juice (for example).
Here's a couple of fun quotes for you, as you talk about our return to the glory of our Founding Fathers:
"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the ark of the Covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment... laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind... as that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, institutions must advance also, to keep pace with the times.... We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain forever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
- Thomas Jefferson (on reform of the Virginia Constitution)
"All property, indeed, except the savage's temporary cabin, his bow, his matchcoat and other little Acquisitions absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the creature of public Convention. Hence, the public has the rights of regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the quantity and uses of it. All the property that is necessary to a man is his natural Right, which none may justly deprive him of, but all Property superfluous to such Purposes is the property of the Public who, by their Laws have created it and who may, by other Laws dispose of it."
- Benjamin Franklin
And while this guy's obviously not a founder, it's a real kicker, considering the source - a fan-boy favorite of right-wingers and right-wing libertarians:
"Far from advocating a "minimal state", we find it unquestionable that in an advanced society government ought to use its power of raising funds by taxation to provide a number of services which for various reasons cannot be provided or cannot be provided adequately by the market."
Friedrich Hayek, "Law, Legislation, and Liberty" 1982
Here's a couple of fun quotes for you, as you talk about our return to the glory of our Founding Fathers:
"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the ark of the Covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment... laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind... as that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, institutions must advance also, to keep pace with the times.... We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain forever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
- Thomas Jefferson (on reform of the Virginia Constitution)
"All property, indeed, except the savage's temporary cabin, his bow, his matchcoat and other little Acquisitions absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the creature of public Convention. Hence, the public has the rights of regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the quantity and uses of it. All the property that is necessary to a man is his natural Right, which none may justly deprive him of, but all Property superfluous to such Purposes is the property of the Public who, by their Laws have created it and who may, by other Laws dispose of it."
- Benjamin Franklin
And while this guy's obviously not a founder, it's a real kicker, considering the source - a fan-boy favorite of right-wingers and right-wing libertarians:
"Far from advocating a "minimal state", we find it unquestionable that in an advanced society government ought to use its power of raising funds by taxation to provide a number of services which for various reasons cannot be provided or cannot be provided adequately by the market."
Friedrich Hayek, "Law, Legislation, and Liberty" 1982
I grew up watching Margaret Thatcher, amongst others, in full flow so one shout out is neither here nor there for me. I would have loved the president to come straight back at him but that is not Obama's style and I fully understand that there are protocols and traditions that should be observed on these occassions. (Just as a matter of interest did anybody watch the resignation speech of Sir Geoffery Howe at the end of Thachers reign? For those who don't know, when a minister resigns tradition has it that their resignation speech to the house is not interrupted. Sir Geoffery was one of the Iron Lady's most loyal servants and after over a decade together he got up and ripped her to shreds as she sat in a packed, silent house watching the curtain come down on her career. Still one of the most amazing speeches I've ever seen. Thatcher had been bulletproof for years and in half an hour there were holes all over her. Whoops - got a bit carried away there)
With regards to Mr Wilson. If the man was all consumed, why didn't he keep on shouting? If you are facing down the man who is single handedly tearing down all you believe in, how come you didn't keep shouting out what needed to be heard until they wrestled you from the chamber? One shout and a sit down fails as a test of politeness and as a protest.
If I were to see this outburst as something more other than the bleatrings of a silly man with a high numbered ticket at a slow moving DMV then I would take it as a symbol of what is currently wrong on the right side of the house. The process of willfull obstructionism is all well and good in the sense of being a symtom of a healthy democracy but the willingness to keep pushing this notion that having no policy other then being anti whatever the other guy wants, is damaging the party and constatnly closing off avenues by which the GOP can broaden their electoral appeal.
Some of the other old farts on here can remember the "intellectual right" and are horrified that they are losing - if not have lost - all footing in the current GOP. Good ideas come from all across the political spectrum and have to be constantly nourished: for a good idea will only gain traction when the circumstances that favor it are ripe. Often the policies that get implemented are bastardized versions of what "the other guy wants. " Bill Clinton was amaster of stealing all the "best bits" of an idea and passing them off as his own.
There are a number of commentators on the right who have noticed this dumbing down and are openly praying for the second coming of William F Buckley Jr. I know there are some quite critically challenged posters on this board but people have got to start working out that the republicans are entering a fallow period if they keep aligning and reinforcing the dumb elements in their organization. What is bad for teh republicans is also bad for the government.
With regards to Mr Wilson. If the man was all consumed, why didn't he keep on shouting? If you are facing down the man who is single handedly tearing down all you believe in, how come you didn't keep shouting out what needed to be heard until they wrestled you from the chamber? One shout and a sit down fails as a test of politeness and as a protest.
If I were to see this outburst as something more other than the bleatrings of a silly man with a high numbered ticket at a slow moving DMV then I would take it as a symbol of what is currently wrong on the right side of the house. The process of willfull obstructionism is all well and good in the sense of being a symtom of a healthy democracy but the willingness to keep pushing this notion that having no policy other then being anti whatever the other guy wants, is damaging the party and constatnly closing off avenues by which the GOP can broaden their electoral appeal.
Some of the other old farts on here can remember the "intellectual right" and are horrified that they are losing - if not have lost - all footing in the current GOP. Good ideas come from all across the political spectrum and have to be constantly nourished: for a good idea will only gain traction when the circumstances that favor it are ripe. Often the policies that get implemented are bastardized versions of what "the other guy wants. " Bill Clinton was amaster of stealing all the "best bits" of an idea and passing them off as his own.
There are a number of commentators on the right who have noticed this dumbing down and are openly praying for the second coming of William F Buckley Jr. I know there are some quite critically challenged posters on this board but people have got to start working out that the republicans are entering a fallow period if they keep aligning and reinforcing the dumb elements in their organization. What is bad for teh republicans is also bad for the government.
iv6789
Closed Account
Not this again!
What Joe Wilson did was not a cultural miscue. You have to understand that England and the U.S. have two separate ideas of what being respectful and offensive are.
Michelle simply thought what she was doing was endearing. Obviously the Queen did not think so and immediately let her know. But come on, JW knew exactly what he was doing.
As for the post about the shoe thrower. Fuck that guy! You threw a shoe at the President of the United States. You deserve to serve jail time. I would hope that if I decided to whip a dodge ball Nicolas Sarkozy that I'd tried and made to serve time.
As everyone has said already. There is a time to protest and a time to be respectful. This was not a time to protest. And make sure you're right when you do protest. Otherwise you just look like a national jackass.
jasonk282
Banned
There going to be a whole lotta protesters in Pittsburgh in a few weeks, many business are closing down for the two days or simple running with a skinny staff. I am sure more than one will end up looking like a national jackass.
Here is Wilson a few years ago acting like a right wing nut job accusing a fellow Congressman of, “hating America.” By the way, Wilson was 100% completely wrong. We DID support Saddam Hussein economically and militarily while he was using mustard gas against the Iranians and Kurds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9_x_o0LzjA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9_x_o0LzjA
But you don't seem to see.....it's not "his cause".......it's ALL of our cause.......THAT'S why he let out with an outburst.....an outburst of his feelings, concerns, and beliefs......not just his mind you....the cause of concern shared by many who believed in, and STILL believe, in Thomas Jefferson's call for a SMALL and UNOBTRUSIVE role in the governments' day to day affairs in OUR lives.
Three cheers for America the way she was INTENDED....the way she WAS.....and the GLORY SHE SHALL RETURN TO.
Is that the rationalization now? I really must find this store....you know, Rationalizations R' Us.....
With all of the, Saddam is developing Nukes, the British said Saddam tried to get uranium from Niger (while his own C.I.A. was calling that claim
), sending Colin Powell to the U.N. to make a fool out of himself with phony intel, you need a warrant to wiretap all the while he's sitting there having personally authorized at least 30 such instances without warrants and on and on and on but not once in 8 years of that bullshit did one US legislator interrupt him addressing the nation to call him a liar....even though he and his VP clearly were.Hell, the case could be made even if Obama is lying which independent verification of the claim says he isn't....at least his lie would be in an attempt to save lives as opposed to costing them....:dunno:
jasonk282
Banned
But you don't seem to see.....it's not "his cause".......it's ALL of our cause.......THAT'S why he let out with an outburst.....an outburst of his feelings, concerns, and beliefs......not just his mind you....the cause of concern shared by many who believed in, and STILL believe, in Thomas Jefferson's call for a SMALL and UNOBTRUSIVE role in the governments' day to day affairs in OUR lives.
Three cheers for America the way she was INTENDED....the way she WAS.....and the GLORY SHE SHALL RETURN TO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7xF1RGCQY
Dude, I for one am opposed to the healthcare plan as well, but Wilson was seriously out of line. He not only hurt himself, but he also hurt the republican party as well. If he disagrees with the president that's fine hold a presser and state your agrument. To just come right out in congress and yell something is a jackass move.
This was an interesting take from David Broder from a month ago about how the opponents of health care reform might see a backlash from their tactics. In fact, in the last month we have seen a dramatic increase in reform supports showing up at events.
This Joe Wilson thing is big. Any conservative that thinks Joe Wilson helped your cause is just plain wrong.
A Price to Pay for the Town Hall Rage
By David S. Broder
Thursday, August 13, 2009
Watching the muscular tactics being used in congressional town meetings by some opponents of health-care reform, I keep thinking somebody should remind the Republican leaders who are reveling in the scenes about Bruce Alger.
Alger was the first Republican congressman elected from Texas in the modern era, winning a Dallas district in 1954. In 1960, just a few days before the presidential election, he was part of a crowd of several hundred people who surrounded Lyndon B. Johnson, the Democratic vice presidential nominee, and his wife, Lady Bird, when they arrived for a luncheon at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas.
Many of the demonstrators carried signs labeling the Texas senator a "Judas." Alger's placard read: "LBJ Sold Out to Yankee Socialists."
As I later wrote, the Johnsons "were engulfed by the crowd, and for more than half an hour, were reviled and jostled as they slowly made their way across the lobby. Johnson refused offers of police assistance, telling an aide that 'if the time has come that I can't walk with my lady across the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel, then I want to know it.' "
The backlash was instant and powerful. As conservative columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak later wrote in their book about Johnson, the scene in the Adolphus "outraged thousands of Texans and Southerners. Sen. Richard Russell of Georgia, who had not campaigned for his party's national ticket since 1944, telephoned Johnson that evening to offer his services." The Johnson biographers concluded that while no one could prove the case, it is "a credible hypothesis" that the Adolphus incident swung Texas and perhaps other closely contested Southern states to the Democrats.
In 1964, when Johnson headed the Democratic ticket, he got even: His coattails swept Alger out of office.
I was reminded of this saga by what happened to Rep. John Dingell of Michigan, the venerable Democrat who was shouted down last week by protesters at a health-care town meeting in Romulus, Mich. Dingell, 83, has represented the area for 53 years, surviving all the political tides and a Republican effort to redistrict him out of office.
Nonetheless, he was called a "fraud" by a woman who said the plan he supported in committee would empty her wallet, and he was booed and denounced by hundreds of others who filled the meeting hall.
Dingell said he hadn't faced as angry a crowd since he voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, but said, "I'm a tough old bastard" and won't waver.
Scenes like the one in Romulus have filled cable TV news as Democrats across the country have been meeting their constituents during this August congressional recess. The cameras were watching as Sens. Arlen Specter and Claire McCaskill were harangued on Tuesday.
What doesn't make the news is what the reaction is among the larger population of voters whose views will ultimately influence the fate of health-care legislation.
I haven't seen any polls taken since the demonstrations began, but an editorial in Tuesday's Detroit Free Press said "the disrespect Dingell was shown in a state where he has made such a profound contribution was unforgivable."
There have been many such editorials. And at least some Republicans are beginning to notice. Sarah Palin, who earlier had called the plans Obama is supporting "downright evil," said in a Facebook post that "we must stick to a discussion of the issues and not get sidetracked by tactics that can be accused of leading to intimidation or harassment."
But not all the GOP leaders have gotten the message. Democratic Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who represents a heavily Jewish district in Florida, phoned me to complain that top House Republicans have not publicly repudiated Rush Limbaugh for his statements likening Obama's health policies to those of the Nazis.
Much improvement is needed in the health-care bills, but I think these angry opponents are playing with fire.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/12/AR2009081202576.html
This Joe Wilson thing is big. Any conservative that thinks Joe Wilson helped your cause is just plain wrong.
A Price to Pay for the Town Hall Rage
By David S. Broder
Thursday, August 13, 2009
Watching the muscular tactics being used in congressional town meetings by some opponents of health-care reform, I keep thinking somebody should remind the Republican leaders who are reveling in the scenes about Bruce Alger.
Alger was the first Republican congressman elected from Texas in the modern era, winning a Dallas district in 1954. In 1960, just a few days before the presidential election, he was part of a crowd of several hundred people who surrounded Lyndon B. Johnson, the Democratic vice presidential nominee, and his wife, Lady Bird, when they arrived for a luncheon at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas.
Many of the demonstrators carried signs labeling the Texas senator a "Judas." Alger's placard read: "LBJ Sold Out to Yankee Socialists."
As I later wrote, the Johnsons "were engulfed by the crowd, and for more than half an hour, were reviled and jostled as they slowly made their way across the lobby. Johnson refused offers of police assistance, telling an aide that 'if the time has come that I can't walk with my lady across the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel, then I want to know it.' "
The backlash was instant and powerful. As conservative columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak later wrote in their book about Johnson, the scene in the Adolphus "outraged thousands of Texans and Southerners. Sen. Richard Russell of Georgia, who had not campaigned for his party's national ticket since 1944, telephoned Johnson that evening to offer his services." The Johnson biographers concluded that while no one could prove the case, it is "a credible hypothesis" that the Adolphus incident swung Texas and perhaps other closely contested Southern states to the Democrats.
In 1964, when Johnson headed the Democratic ticket, he got even: His coattails swept Alger out of office.
I was reminded of this saga by what happened to Rep. John Dingell of Michigan, the venerable Democrat who was shouted down last week by protesters at a health-care town meeting in Romulus, Mich. Dingell, 83, has represented the area for 53 years, surviving all the political tides and a Republican effort to redistrict him out of office.
Nonetheless, he was called a "fraud" by a woman who said the plan he supported in committee would empty her wallet, and he was booed and denounced by hundreds of others who filled the meeting hall.
Dingell said he hadn't faced as angry a crowd since he voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, but said, "I'm a tough old bastard" and won't waver.
Scenes like the one in Romulus have filled cable TV news as Democrats across the country have been meeting their constituents during this August congressional recess. The cameras were watching as Sens. Arlen Specter and Claire McCaskill were harangued on Tuesday.
What doesn't make the news is what the reaction is among the larger population of voters whose views will ultimately influence the fate of health-care legislation.
I haven't seen any polls taken since the demonstrations began, but an editorial in Tuesday's Detroit Free Press said "the disrespect Dingell was shown in a state where he has made such a profound contribution was unforgivable."
There have been many such editorials. And at least some Republicans are beginning to notice. Sarah Palin, who earlier had called the plans Obama is supporting "downright evil," said in a Facebook post that "we must stick to a discussion of the issues and not get sidetracked by tactics that can be accused of leading to intimidation or harassment."
But not all the GOP leaders have gotten the message. Democratic Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who represents a heavily Jewish district in Florida, phoned me to complain that top House Republicans have not publicly repudiated Rush Limbaugh for his statements likening Obama's health policies to those of the Nazis.
Much improvement is needed in the health-care bills, but I think these angry opponents are playing with fire.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/12/AR2009081202576.html
^^^^
Agreed ,such people are not helping the conservatives in any way.
Keith Olbermann Special Comment: Rep Joe Wilson - You're Wrong!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Bf3i3PnUc
Keith talks about lying presidents,racist Joe Wilson, etc.
Agreed ,such people are not helping the conservatives in any way.
Keith Olbermann Special Comment: Rep Joe Wilson - You're Wrong!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Bf3i3PnUc
Keith talks about lying presidents,racist Joe Wilson, etc.
meesterperfect
Hiliary 2020
Yeah maybe, he was out of line I agree.
However drastic situations call for drastic measures at times.
I never heard of Wilson before, I think many hadn't.
Although out of line, he did get the point across on a huge scale.
I don't see the media showing many opposing viewpoints on this issue, unless they are painting it as racist troublemakers expressing hatred.
This didn't hurt the republicans one bit.
jasonk282
Banned
Well I am in complete disagrence with you on this issue. I would be more concerned if the media showed supporting view points, which it does not, which IMO mean that the majority of Republicans do not agree with him and are going to distance themselves from him. He shot himself in the foot and people are not going to want to be associated with him.
They media does not have to show opposing view points because of this:
HB3200 Section 246 NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. So why show opposing view points when it's completly not needed? I am all for attacking Van Jones and the such, but when something is wrong with our party we need to stand up and say bullshit to it as well.
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