Is Bush the worst president ever?

[Trulsone]

I hope you wont have anybody worse than bush

 

[Member2019]

Without a doubt, he is a walking, talking disaster. The USA must negotiate with middle eastern leaders, verbally in order for peace to happen. Not take over economies and control oil wells. Terrorism occurs due to this issue.

Yeah, I really like those economies and oil wells we're tapping. WTF? I ain't seeing it. And the last time I checked, it's costing us a crapload.

 

[Noobeejee]

I think Bush is the worst, longest serving president. To go a bit further, this could well be the worst administration ever as well.

Bush was an irresponsible, alcoholic in his youth. The man has no history of any proud accomplishments, be it academic, militaristic, social service, religious...NOTHING. He s leaving behind a legacy of incompetence, non-accomplishment and hypocrisy in the white house. There is basically no quality or accomplishment this man has that anyone can or should admire.

The fact that this president and his family could have such close ties to the family of the most hunted terrorist in the world and till today maintains this relationship is for me very saddening.

So, if this wasn't the worst president ever, show me who was!!

 

[Iamforever]

I think Bush is the worst, longest serving president. To go a bit further, this could well be the worst administration ever as well.

Bush was an irresponsible, alcoholic in his youth. The man has no history of any proud accomplishments, be it academic, militaristic, social service, religious...NOTHING. He s leaving behind a legacy of incompetence, non-accomplishment and hypocrisy in the white house. There is basically no quality or accomplishment this man has that anyone can or should admire.

The fact that this president and his family could have such close ties to the family of the most hunted terrorist in the world and till today maintains this relationship is for me very saddening.

So, if this wasn't the worst president ever, show me who was!!

i think you need to do some research. so bush drank and did drugs. who didnt as a youth? and the bush family does not have ties to bin laden. bin laden disowned his family for having relations with the western world.

 

[rampau]

I don't acknowledge his existence.

 

[Roughneck]

he is not evil or the worst president ever.

I happen to think he is both - or atleast this current administration is.

But I hold Congress equally culpable.

And last but not least - I hold we, the American people, atleasts morally responsible.


I've come to this conclusion after watching egregious violations and perversions by governments from my youth. Johnson made me sit up and notice... and from then on, it's been downhill.

... or so I thought...

When I wasn't busy dodging shells or sacking villages, I found time to read. I found that this decadence and perversion of our republican ideals has been going on for DECADES. I say "republican" with a small 'r' lest some idiot think I'm somehow condoning the "Republican" Party.

So, is Dubya the worst? Asbolutely!
And so have Presidents stretching back to Wilson (in recent history atleast).

I don't base this on what the current trend of "anti-Americanism" [and despite what Fox claims, it certainly exists. Just because muslims are treated badly (or worse) doesn't excuse prejudicial attitudes toward Americans. Neither attitude should be acceptable or excuseable].

Perhaps some of you have an inkling of what I'm talking about - but I wouldn't be surprised if most of you didn't. I sincierly don't mean it to be 'personal' - just stating what I see. And quite frankly, I think a lot of those expressing anti-American sentiments have little to no clue of whats going on.

I'm usually one of the first to admit that America has been wrong in the past. be it supporting dodgy charecters or repressive dictatorships (and we still do!) around the world - I admit and acknowledge that America has done wrong.

What I can't understand (nor accept) is the near preachy nature of other so called 'free' nations who point fingers at America and cry "foul!". As if they were pure snow!

Most of those who accuse America of wrong doing have little to no concept of how this country works and what it's founding ideals are. A case in point is the current battlecry over "the nation taking a collective yawn as our rights evaporate". Liberals/Democrats are seemingly outraged as the current administration regards or disregards the supreme law of the land as it pleases.

And they SHOULD be outraged - what this adminstration is doing is unconscionable and unacceptable.

But I can't help but ask - these same liberals who are crying about our "rights" ... are they willing to eliminate our IRS (theft of property)? Roll back gun control laws (2nd Amendment)? Eliminate welfare and anti-hate speech laws?

The Constitution isn't just a "good idea" - It's the LAW! You can't cherry pick from the law - that's not how law works.


And yet, on the other hand, I am appaled and disgusted with the near lack of outrage from the "Republican" Party. The party which elected itself with it's "contract with America" promising us smaller, lesser intrusive government.... but has only begotten us a bigger, more costly, more profligate and more intrusive government than ever!


Who is to blame for this?
The answer is short, simple and very bitter --- WE ARE.

Just stand at a street corner and ask a 100 (hell, ask 500) people ~ "Who elects the President of the United States" ~ I wager 2 beers that atleast 80%-95% of the folks say something along the lines of "the people/citizens elect the President during the Presidential Election". NOW, ask them the follow up question of "do you know how your State elects it's Electoral College?" and be prepared for more than a dozen blank stares. Don't be surprised if some actually ask you what "an electoral college is".

These are the "people who vote".

People who don't even know the basic functions of their government.
People who moan and complain when government doesn't fix "x" ill or "y" habit
People who clamour for Democracy whilst forgetting that we are a Republic.

The list is endless...


On a last note: I have to agree with the Prof about his points regarding the complicity of other governments in our current fiasco. The Prof and I may not agree on everything regarding American foreign policy, but he does a good job of pointing out the hypocricy of foreign governments.


cheers,
R.

 

[Roughneck]

I hope you wont have anybody worse than bush

To be very honest - there have been some as bad and some worse than him.


cheers,

 

[Roughneck]

... never mind...

 

[Iamforever]

youre right on some things. bush may be a complete idiot, but he is not evil. but at least, you gave some blame to the people that matter. congress. bush is not to blame because he doesnt know what he is doing. it is his admin. just like you said. these are the reasons that i would like the bush bashing to stop. its not all him.

 

[Roughneck]

youre right on some things. bush may be a complete idiot, but he is not evil. but at least, you gave some blame to the people that matter. congress. bush is not to blame because he doesnt know what he is doing. it is his admin. just like you said. these are the reasons that i would like the bush bashing to stop. its not all him.

I don't absolve him of blame - especially for something such as "he doesn't know what he is doing".

No - he has his share of blame.
But the fault is not entierly his alone.

Merely replacing "Bush" with a "Clinton" will not magically reverse situations.

I mentioned Congress because they have been completely subservient to the Executive. And the Executive has reciprocated by not vetoing a single spending bill - save for the politically motivated stem cell research one.

We have a bunch of spineless cowards running our government - Executive and Legislative.

Don't even get me started on the Judiciary.


cheers,

 

[Iamforever]

i wont get you started on this, but you do know that congress has more power than the president, right? yes, the president can override anything. but, the president cant do anything without either congress or the house backing him. i agree that the entire government is wasted. but name one country that doesnt have a fucked up government. i cant think of one. they all think for themselves. so, by this rationale, bush is not to blame. he is just part of a pattern started by lyndon b. johnson. since kennedy, what president has been any good to the people? we cant blame bush. and i am NOT a bush supporter.

 

[Roughneck]

i wont get you started on this, but you do know that congress has more power than the president, right?

Tehcnically, yes. The Legislature - being the directly elected representatives of the people are supposed to wield a tad bit more power. This is why the founders placed the legislature in Article One of the Constitution. But one must also remember that the power to oversee the Executive is a "non legislative" power of Congress.

Also, Article 1, Section 9 lists limitations placed on Congress.

Be that as it may - the three parts of government are supposed to act as checks and balance on each other. If Congress authorises something it is NOT supposed to, the Executive is NOT supposed to follow it!

yes, the president can override anything.

Not really. The only authority he has for over-riding the will of the People is that the law passed is "unconstitutional". If not - he really can't over-ride them.

but name one country that doesnt have a fucked up government. i cant think of one. they all think for themselves. so, by this rationale, bush is not to blame.

I don't give a wooden nickel about the governments of Djibouti or Poland. I give a damn about the government of the USA. The way the US government was setup was limited government - the founders recognised the evils and problems of power and worked to restrict it.

Just because there are fucked up governments the world over doesn't mean I have to accept one here. Not that I'm overly entusiastic about government itself - but that's a different thread.

he is just part of a pattern started by lyndon b. johnson. since kennedy, what president has been any good to the people? we cant blame bush. and i am NOT a bush supporter.

We can blame Bush for the precisely the very reason you stated - he is still part of the fucking pattern! Of what point is it to elect new guys with new promises if they end up giving us the same old soyashit?

All I'm saying is that we can blame Bush for his part.
But we can't blame Bush for ALL OF IT. Congress and we the people share parts of the blame too.

In other terms: Anyone who blames just Bush or this current administration for our ills is giving a "get out of jail free" card to the Congress and Judiciary. Does that make sense?


cheers,

 

[georges]

I vote worst ever also because you have to judge him by his time. The entire western world is getting more liberal, more peaceful, less militaristic, more environmentally conscious, and leaning towards pulling together to solve problems. Meanwhile you have a guy like Bush, whose agenda is business, oil, war, smokescreens, scare stories, wars on verbs, and... you get the idea. So judging him alongside the political global climate of his time, I think he is the worst.

You are a true communist. I don't think the entire western world is getting more liberal. See in Europe how the founding countries perceive the Europe of 25, mostly as a shame and I know many people do as well. The lack of values and disappearance of discipline is something, people don't really want. Unfortunately leftists/far leftists proved their unability to run governments by authorizing wide open frontiers and by this allowing massive illegal immigration, giving social helps to some people who don't even desserve it because they don't make a single effort to integrate themselves and when it comes to national safety leftists/far leftists will rather surrender than fight to death (see how was elected zapatero).
Bush telling scare stories and making war on verbs, you are on drugs.
For me, your beloved leftist idiot Clinton is the worst, he did jackshit after three terrorist attacks and withdrew from Somalia like a Coward, reduced the number of bases of the USAF and USARMY for no real reason, cut the budget on some military programs that could have helped the US a lot and banned high capacity weapons and most important of all, he lied under oath. After all that your portay him as a hero? You are the most unamerican person I have ever seen sorry but this is my opinion.

 

[Iamforever]

i forgot how to do the quotes like you did. bear with me.


1."Tehcnically, yes. The Legislature - being the directly elected representatives of the people are supposed to wield a tad bit more power. This is why the founders placed the legislature in Article One of the Constitution. But one must also remember that the power to oversee the Executive is a "non legislative" power of Congress.

Also, Article 1, Section 9 lists limitations placed on Congress.

Be that as it may - the three parts of government are supposed to act as checks and balance on each other. If Congress authorises something it is NOT supposed to, the Executive is NOT supposed to follow it!"--posted by roughneck

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i stand corrected. but at least i was technically right.

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2.Not really. The only authority he has for over-riding the will of the People is that the law passed is "unconstitutional". If not - he really can't over-ride them.
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the president can veto anything. im talking legal things. the constitution in my eyes, and that of every other americans(i hope).
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3. I don't give a wooden nickel about the governments of Djibouti or Poland. I give a damn about the government of the USA. The way the US government was setup was limited government - the founders recognised the evils and problems of power and worked to restrict it.

Just because there are fucked up governments the world over doesn't mean I have to accept one here. Not that I'm overly entusiastic about government itself - but that's a different thread.
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this one i have no arguement. i will pass.

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4.We can blame Bush for the precisely the very reason you stated - he is still part of the fucking pattern! Of what point is it to elect new guys with new promises if they end up giving us the same old soyashit?

All I'm saying is that we can blame Bush for his part.
But we can't blame Bush for ALL OF IT. Congress and we the people share parts of the blame too.

In other terms: Anyone who blames just Bush or this current administration for our ills is giving a "get out of jail free" card to the Congress and Judiciary. Does that make sense?

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i believe that bush isnt to blame because of this pattern. its been a downward spiral since kennedy was shot. its been a whirlpool that the states cant get out of. its not bushes fault. have i mentioned that i am not a bush supporter. i want him out of office too. but he is not to blame.like you said, we are all to blame. even the little people like me. i didnt vote. im still not registered. it doesnt matter who gets elected in my eyes.

 

[Roughneck]

Hi georges,

I'm curious - can you define what is "American" for me please?


cheers,

 

[Iamforever]

Hi georges,

I'm curious - can you define what is "American" for me please?


cheers,

i didnt know that you were american georges. my bad. all this time i thought you were european. shit, im sorry.

 

[Roughneck]

2.Not really. The only authority he has for over-riding the will of the People is that the law passed is "unconstitutional". If not - he really can't over-ride them.

the president can veto anything. im talking legal things. the constitution in my eyes, and that of every other americans(i hope).

Technically speaking - the President cannot veto anything. The word "veto" does not appear in the United States Constitution. Article I, Section 7 of the Constitution states that all legislation passed by both houses of Congress must be presented to the President.

If the President agrees with the Bill/Legislation, he signs it into law. If he disagrees, he has 10 days to return it to the house of Congress the Bill/Legislation originated from along with his comments as to why he disagrees with it. This is his constitutional requirement - as is the constitutional requirement of the Congress to consider his remarks AND the legislation as a whole.

If the Congress passes the bill by a 2/3 majority in each house, it becomes law without the President's signature. Otherwise, the bill fails to become law (unless ofcourse, it is presented to the President again and he chooses to sign it).

i believe that bush isnt to blame because of this pattern. its been a downward spiral since kennedy was shot.

I would actually argue that the spiral began way before Kennedy - but I'm willing to keep it simple for purposes of debate.

Let us assume that this all began because Kennedy was shot.

How does it change or eleimate the fact that neither Bush nor the Republican Party have stood by their campaign promises?

For a small except: LINK

its been a whirlpool that the states cant get out of.

Not "can't" but "won't".

its not bushes fault.

It is not entierly his fault - but he is the head of the Executive. How you can hold him "not responsible" for what the executive does, I am unable to understand.

but he is not to blame.like you said, we are all to blame.

The "we" includes President Bush....

it doesnt matter who gets elected in my eyes.

Cynicism at my age is understandable. Cynicism at yours is sad. This isn't a personal judgement.

My generation has failed if all we did was to make you lot lethargic and disdainful of expecting change in government!


cheers,

 

[Iamforever]

1.I would actually argue that the spiral began way before Kennedy - but I'm willing to keep it simple for purposes of debate.

you may be right. for some reason i think lincoln is to blame. he got more credit than deserved.


2.How does it change or eleimate the fact that neither Bush nor the Republican Party have stood by their campaign promises?

it doesnt. touche!!

3.Not "can't" but "won't"

i dont believe that. i still love my country. i still have faith that it can be turned around. it probably wont happen, but still.

4.It is not entierly his fault - but he is the head of the Executive. How you can hold him "not responsible" for what the executive does, I am unable to understand.

because, i just dont think a leader has that much power anymore. at least not in a first world sense.

5.The "we" includes President Bush....
the we is more us than him. we hold more power than he does. i am pertly to blame. i did vote for him the first time. i didnt even vote the sec

it wasnt just your generation. it was years before you too. it just doesnt matter who gets elected. its been that way for a while. nobody is for the people anymore. kennedy was the last. he was rare, but he still was for the people.

 

[Roughneck]

Gentlemen,

One final note before I haul my carcass off to bed:

I'm simply curious to know what georges means by "American". I've often read his posts stating that a certain PoV is "unAmerican" or that "unAmericanism as an attitude is unacceptable". These maynot be his exact words - but I trust y'all will lend an old coot like myself some leeway.

In anycase, I am not interested in georges' ancestry nor his current "citizenship status" or residence. I'm interested solely in my question: "can you define what is "American" for me please?"


cheers,

 

[Iamforever]

no disrespect georges. but unless you have lived in America, you cant answer roughnecks question.