SCOTUS Upholds Obamacare

[mongo18]

How does it not work?

The NHS has been part of British lives for over 70 years. In my, and many others opinion it is one of the single greatest feats provided by the government to the people of the UK. Free healthcare for all. No one has to worry about whether their insurance will cover it if they fall ill, or if they lose their jobs. I fully admit that the NHS has many problems and can be extremely wasteful at times, and is in need of reform, but does it work? You're fucking right it does. There is real fear in the UK that the current tory government will continue to privatise the NHS through the back door as they have already been doing for the last five years.

One question for those who oppose it so strongly. What would happen if you were to lose your job and not have the money to cover your medical insurance and you were to fall ill or be in an accident?

I'm actually agreeing with you, the Australian system is awesome too. What the US has is total bullshit, and like many of the beliefs of the far right, it takes a certain level of sociopathy to believe that it should have stayed as it was. They argue that everyone should just be prepared and take care of themselves, but when you get some rare bullshit disease and the insurance company drops you after 200k no amount of preparation is going to keep you in the black.

And if you want an example of the type of person I told you about, just look at BC. This is a guy who has on this forum offered to give thousands of dollars to random internet strangers more than once, but if his insurance premiums go up by 4k so that one or two other families or individuals might be able to afford their health insurance it's the end of the fucking world.

 

[Little Red Wagon Repairman]

Blue Countach is a goddamned American treasure.

Fuckin' Hell, I been off the board for a few days and found out Blue Countach closed his account. I didn't scour the landscape to find out why but he's a good fella that I enjoy having discussions with and I hope he returns. FUCK!!!

 

[Rattrap]

I see the weight of recent events was too much for our Blue friend. What with the Confederate flag taking a spanking, Obamacare upheld, and marriage equality prevailing, the writing on the wall for the party that supports the failed causes he champions is pretty obvious. Blame me for his departure, hey, that's awesome but everyone knows it wasn't my fault. After all, someone that's "becoming known as the whiniest poster on the forum" would be easy to ignore, particularly after spelling out above that I'd had enough of the bitter sour grapes routine. I predict he won't be gone long, Closed Accounts are just as easy to reopen and with the truly whiny temperament this guy's got he won't be able to contain himself. In the off chance that he chooses to stay gone, good riddance, but I really hate to see it come to this, every forum needs an articulate foil and I'll give him at least that much, he's no assari. Be sure to crack open some good cheese, Blue, you need something to go with all that wine.

I disagree with the bold part. I'd trade in a hundred of him for one reasonable conservative. I mean that honestly and earnestly - we need more of them here. It does me no good to argue in an echo chamber. But it does me equally no good to argue with unreasonable folk who don't let silly things like facts and reality sway them (or educate their worldview in the first place).

And if you want an example of the type of person I told you about, just look at BC. This is a guy who has on this forum offered to give thousands of dollars to random internet strangers more than once, but if his insurance premiums go up by 4k so that one or two other families or individuals might be able to afford their health insurance it's the end of the fucking world.

And for a swift call to irony, I'm going to defend BC (putting aside the end of the world part): he's got a fair point in the difference between charity and obligation, even when the outcome is the same. This is a standard libertarian position, but it's flawed when set in the real world. Why/how/etc I think is actually a significant topic for discussion which I think I'll make a new thread for, following in xfire's steps of thought-provoking question-threads.

They argue that everyone should just be prepared and take care of themselves, but when you get some rare bullshit disease and the insurance company drops you after 200k no amount of preparation is going to keep you in the black.

This is getting more into that 'flawed in the real world' area I just mentioned. The big difference between what should be and what is. I'm going to go make that thread now...

 

[larss]

How does it not work?

The NHS has been part of British lives for over 70 years. In my, and many others opinion it is one of the single greatest feats provided by the government to the people of the UK. Free healthcare for all. No one has to worry about whether their insurance will cover it if they fall ill, or if they lose their jobs. I fully admit that the NHS has many problems and can be extremely wasteful at times, and is in need of reform, but does it work? You're fucking right it does. There is real fear in the UK that the current tory government will continue to privatise the NHS through the back door as they have already been doing for the last five years.

One question for those who oppose it so strongly. What would happen if you were to lose your job and not have the money to cover your medical insurance and you were to fall ill or be in an accident?

I have often heard people worried about the "Privatisation" of the NHS but what I can't quite put my finger on is exactly what is being privatised. i.e. what is being taken away from the NHS and handed to private companies? Also, why should this matter at all as long as healthcare continues to be free at the point of delivery and paid for via taxes and not by individual insurance policy.
Just to make it clear, the previous Labour government actually started privatisation schemes with the outsourcing of hygiene (cleaners) and catering in hospitals.
Some of the current "privatisation" has been to use outside companies such as BUPA for some treatments (e.g. a BUPA gamma knife radiosurgery centre for brain cancer where about a third of patients are sent by the NHS as it is not deemed economically viable to open more NHS units). Some is just wasteful where cover nurses are used and the private sector charges well over the odds for these.
There is a lot wrong with our NHS and most of it is to do with waste of resources.
I do not worry about the Torys privatising the NHS, I really don't care if the whole thing was outsourced, just as long as it is continues to be free at the point of delivery to every British citizen, paid for through taxation, and gives good quality and value for money.
There does seem to be a lot of scaremongering about the Torys dismantling/privatising the NHS but I have yet to hear a single Tory MP say that he/she wants to privatise the NHS or make people pay at point of delivery. Even if the legislation were to be put forward, it would never get through the Commons, let alone the Lords.
We do have a 2 tier system in the UK. I have private health insurance which is a perk that my company pays for (and I get taxed for). This extra expense, that I pay for, means that I can take pressure off the NHS for any non-emergency care that I or a member of my family may have as well as having less wait in a more comfortable environment. I don't apologise for this any more than I would apologise for staying in a 5 star hotel on my holidays rather than a cheap all inclusive resort.

 

[MMMariah]

I think that xfire is right. He couldn't handle seeing the hammering his people took last week and the pretty clear writing on the wall that the guy he said could be our next president is becoming more of a joke to everyone than he already was. When you are as boastful about a cause as BC is but keep getting your ass kicked its gotta be tough to own up. Republicans arent known for their humility and admitting they are wrong isnt a strong suit either.

Take care counselor. He once said "I have more IP addresses than an Indian in a call center" so I'm sure he and his never ending rhetoric will be back shortly.

 

[larss]

 

[DP_LOVER]

I have often heard people worried about the "Privatisation" of the NHS but what I can't quite put my finger on is exactly what is being privatised. i.e. what is being taken away from the NHS and handed to private companies? Also, why should this matter at all as long as healthcare continues to be free at the point of delivery and paid for via taxes and not by individual insurance policy.
Just to make it clear, the previous Labour government actually started privatisation schemes with the outsourcing of hygiene (cleaners) and catering in hospitals.
Some of the current "privatisation" has been to use outside companies such as BUPA for some treatments (e.g. a BUPA gamma knife radiosurgery centre for brain cancer where about a third of patients are sent by the NHS as it is not deemed economically viable to open more NHS units). Some is just wasteful where cover nurses are used and the private sector charges well over the odds for these.
There is a lot wrong with our NHS and most of it is to do with waste of resources.
I do not worry about the Torys privatising the NHS, I really don't care if the whole thing was outsourced, just as long as it is continues to be free at the point of delivery to every British citizen, paid for through taxation, and gives good quality and value for money.
There does seem to be a lot of scaremongering about the Torys dismantling/privatising the NHS but I have yet to hear a single Tory MP say that he/she wants to privatise the NHS or make people pay at point of delivery. Even if the legislation were to be put forward, it would never get through the Commons, let alone the Lords.
We do have a 2 tier system in the UK. I have private health insurance which is a perk that my company pays for (and I get taxed for). This extra expense, that I pay for, means that I can take pressure off the NHS for any non-emergency care that I or a member of my family may have as well as having less wait in a more comfortable environment. I don't apologise for this any more than I would apologise for staying in a 5 star hotel on my holidays rather than a cheap all inclusive resort.

The NHS goes against the very philosophy of a tory government who are all about big business and neo-liberalism. The thing is that the NHS has become such a part of our lives that no government would ever openly say that they planned to privatise it. Instead the last government have overseen the largest re-organisation and privatisation of the NHS in history, but most of this has been done through the back door, or disguised as something else. And more often than not, those who benefit from the sell off are tory peers

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tisation-biggest-history-staffordshire-cancer
http://www.nhsforsale.info/database/impact-database/conflict-of-interest/GOVERNMENT-POLITICIANS.html

And to say that you dont care if everything is outsourced as long as it is free is a complete oxymoron. If it is outsourced it means that it is controlled by a company with shareholders and equity partners who want to see a return for their investment. This means two things, one the level of service will come secondary to the amount of money they can make, and two, it will certainly not be free.

The last government oversaw huge sell offs of the NHS to private funds (yes i know Labour did too, but not to the same scale) and it is now widely acknowledged that even more would have been done were it not for the lib dems keeping at least some control and vetoing some of the plans. Now with no one else to stop them, I really fear that piece by piece the NHS will just be eroded away

 

[larss]

The NHS goes against the very philosophy of a tory government who are all about big business and neo-liberalism. The thing is that the NHS has become such a part of our lives that no government would ever openly say that they planned to privatise it. Instead the last government have overseen the largest re-organisation and privatisation of the NHS in history, but most of this has been done through the back door, or disguised as something else. And more often than not, those who benefit from the sell off are tory peers

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tisation-biggest-history-staffordshire-cancer
http://www.nhsforsale.info/database/impact-database/conflict-of-interest/GOVERNMENT-POLITICIANS.html

And to say that you dont care if everything is outsourced as long as it is free is a complete oxymoron. If it is outsourced it means that it is controlled by a company with shareholders and equity partners who want to see a return for their investment. This means two things, one the level of service will come secondary to the amount of money they can make, and two, it will certainly not be free.

The last government oversaw huge sell offs of the NHS to private funds (yes i know Labour did too, but not to the same scale) and it is now widely acknowledged that even more would have been done were it not for the lib dems keeping at least some control and vetoing some of the plans. Now with no one else to stop them, I really fear that piece by piece the NHS will just be eroded away

Free at the point of delivery. ie You go to A&E you do not pay. You need hospital care you do not pay. You need out-patient care you do not pay.
The government pays for this through our taxes. This makes no difference whether it is privatised or not as long as all of the right checks and balances are in place.

Privatised or not it will be paid for by taxes and remain the NHS. Who knows, it may even be run better as a privatised industry. There are lots of things wrong with the NHS right now and not all of it is because of what has happened over the last 5 years. The NHS needed to be changed - it was failing (and still is). It needs modernisation and a lot of centralisation. The IT in the NHS is a joke. There have been numerous attempts at getting a nationwide system in place and all have failed at enormous cost with nothing to show for it. Time management is pathetic. Too much paperwork - and here I mean actual paper. I had occasion to call an ambulance a few months ago. They were with me for over an hour even though it was obvious that I was fine after 10 minutes. The 50 minutes was spent filling in forms. ON PAPER. Someone, somewhere will then have to take those written notes and enter them into a computer. No doubt there will be transcription mistakes made. A simple cheap android tablet would save hours a week and make the price of the hardware back in next to no time. Sounds simple, doesn't it? Try getting that through a nationalised industry. A privately run company would have that changed. The result is a service that is cheaper to run and more efficient with less chance of incorrect data being stored.

 

[DP_LOVER]

^ You talk of privatising and centralising in the same sentence. These are two completely difference things, the very definition of privatisation means it is taken away from central government control. You are old enough like me to remember the days of british rail/steel/gas/telecoms etc. All were controlled by the central government. Rightly or wrongly (thats another debate for another time) they have all been privatised and are now run by many large corporate companies whose sole aim is to make money. That is why you can chose who supplies your gas, telephone, electricity etc. The government has no control over this, and it is not subsidised by our taxes. Look at the recent scandal about the price rises in gas as an example. The government cannot control this.

If you were to privatise the NHS fully then yes there would probably be a decrease in our personal taxes (although im sure the government would find a way to squirrel the money elsewhere) and yes it may become more efficient. But would it be 'free', not a chance. We would all need to get private healthcare to make sure we were covered, which itself would be another huge collection of companies all fighting for our money.

I agree that the NHS needs a serious overhaul, and it is laughable that in this day an age that things are still run in such an old fashioned way, but you cannot privatise the NHS and then also expect our taxes to make this free at the point of service, it just doesnt work like that

 

[MMMariah]

I remember when a certain supposed attorney on this board boldly guaranteed that Obamacare was on its last legs and would be cut down in SCOTUS Hasn't chimed in much on this topic though has he??

 

[Jack Davenport]

I remember when a certain supposed attorney on this board boldly guaranteed that Obamacare was on its last legs and would be cut down in SCOTUS Hasn't chimed in much on this topic though has he??

I am not sure that I guaranteed that as I don't usually predict what SCOTUS will do. Now if I did that, by all means please post it and I will stand corrected.


I guess I could have during a heated exchange, so please post it if I did. I would like to see it

 

[MMMariah]

You said a month or 2 ago that when they announced that there was an angle they were using to take down Obamacare that SCOTUS would repeal it. You said it and I don't have the time or energy today to dig through all of your insanity to find where you said it. But you did say it.

 

[Jack Davenport]

You said a month or 2 ago that when they announced that there was an angle they were using to take down Obamacare that SCOTUS would repeal it. You said it and I don't have the time or energy today to dig through all of your insanity to find where you said it. But you did say it.

The insanity here is you multiple threads and posts already with the intent to bait .


Quite honestly, I may have to respond to something on an existing thread with you but my responding to the threads you start are over.

I still would like to see where I guaranteed anything regarding SCOTUS.

 

[MMMariah]

Oh please, You have ZERO self-control. How many times have you left and closed your account only to come flaming back on the scene when you read something while lurking that you cannot let go???? You made it what, an entire week this most recent time? You can't stay away and you can't not take the bait. I post articles that are relevant. You see them as baiting because you don't agree with them. I post them to get dialogue and debate going so of course they're bait. What initial post on any forum isn't bait?

You are out of control dude. Time to settle down a little. I know you're pissed that your side looks like it's motto should be "I'm a pickin..... and I'm a grinnin!" but try and chill would ya?

 

[Jack Davenport]

I closed my account twice. Last week was because I wanted to change my name and was informed that it was not necessary. Who was it that was calling me out by name on every thread you started?

I can promise you that I will not participate on your threads again. So you can just cease with the bait Let's see if you have any self control with your incessant bullshit.

 

[MMMariah]

Yeah sure thing buddy boy. I told others "let me see how long he can stand it to stay quiet because you know he's here lurking" and sure enough, there you were the next day.