With all the buzz of Nash not being traded, more teams will look at him. He'll probably be moved at the draft. It's a very deep draft this summer.
NHL '11/'12 Thread
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With all the buzz of Nash not being traded, more teams will look at him. He'll probably be moved at the draft. It's a very deep draft this summer.
Marlo Manson
Hello Sexy girl how your Toes doing?
Agree'd I can't argue with the success we've enjoyed / experienced / & or achieved, but I hate the inbred soft style of hockey Detroit plays!!! I mean I like there game!! there scheme its awesome cuz we win, but I think its Hollands ideology of having a soft finesse team that gets pushed around, and worn down come playoff time that I really dislike and I am ashamed that we are synonymous for being a soft team that can be bullied that I detest.
What I am saying is, Does the whole team have to be small European players who won't or can't fight / stand up for themselves? I think a bigger meaner bunch that can play just as well as most of the Europeans on our team could play the same brand of hockey with the same skill set and accomplish the same results that we have enjoyed and celebrated. & granted, I understand your not gonna find to many Datsyuks, or Lidstroms, out there, but just about everybody else could be a guy thats bigger / stronger/ tougher and play the same kind of hockey with the same results. Holland has a euro mentality and its frustrating to see our guys get bullied all year, round after round in the playoffs.. just sayin. :2 cents:
Get bullied and win cups, or be the bully and not win cups. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Holland will retire a Wing, and he'll be replaced by Yzerman, who will probably stick to the same brand of hockey. It's our identity. Just like the Steelers and tough D and the Pistons with their hard hat work ethic. Every other team in the league wishes they ran a system as efficiently and successfully as Detroit..Vancouver is basically modelled after the Wings and they're the top 2 teams in the league. You see guys not sticking up for themselves, but I see guys keeping their cool and drawing penalties. I don't think we get bullied as much as we out smart physical teams. You make it sound like we're the Russians and every team that plays us is the Broad Street Bullies.
Marlo Manson
Hello Sexy girl how your Toes doing?
Hahaha your right... I see what your saying, although I think if Yzerman is hollands successor, & I hope your correct about that, I think Stevie Y will remember the importance of having a Bob Probert or Joey Kocur on the team to protect him from getting hurt / bullied and keeping the other teams guys honest by respecting our teams elite, by not trying to take liberties or runs or inflict dirty hits & such etc.. and I think your making one small contradiction / or maybe thats not the right word for it, lets say overlooking the fact, that if Vancouver is mimicking Detroit's style, and doing it pretty well I might add, the Vancouver Canucks can goon it up, play tough / defend themselves & keep guys honest, although the Nucks looked like they were playing dirty, they played just like the Bruins did in the finals. Could Detroit do that??? I don't know, I tend to think we couldn't..
By not retaliating and waiting too capitalize on PP's won't help if we lose one of our superstars because of a dirty hit, or bone breaking slash, I mean we might lose a guy too injury for a whole series or maybe the rest of the playoffs and get what a 5 minute PP and the guy who did it gets suspended @ best, but we are still out of guy like Lidstrom or Pavel gawdforbid, you see my rational, I know where your coming from, keeping there cool and maintaining composure, but @ what cost. if we had guys to keep the other team honest and not taking liberties with our superstars maybe those injuries don't happen and getting worn down from taking so much punishment does't happen if we had guys that would keep the other guys from taking those liberties in the 1st place. :2 cents:
The point I am trying to stess is, were not the Russians & every team we play, don't play like the BSB, but all the experts said, we got out physical'd in the 09 finals & we lost cause we were a worn down, out physical'd team, and the samething happened the following playoff years, we were worn down and couldn't compete cause of it. I am just going by what I heard professional analyst say and report, am I not to believe that when I just saw it happen???
IMO Detroit could play tougher, meaner and draw other teams into penalties by initiating the agitation and willing our team to intimidate the other team. everybody does that to us. but we don't retaliate we take the penalty and the injury or onset of vulnerability of playing with a subtle injury that could get aggravated or progress into a more of bigger problem, perhaps meaning we lose a superstar in the playoff and lose a series because of it. just saying.. :2 cents:
ehem...
On a decidedly less glorious note, the Bruins got shut out again tonight. That's 5 times in February, which I'm guessing is some sort of record in futility.
Just wanna say: In regard to this debate over soft teams and tough teams, I think it's pretty difficult to find soft teams that have won Cups. On the other hand, there are tonnes of tough, intimidating, bruising teams that win Cups. Almost every year a team with that kind of edge prevails in the Finals. The Canucks last year easily had the most talented team in the NHL, but they were shallow in terms of team toughness, and their strategy all year long was to draw penalties and score on the powerplay, which worked all year long. But they fell in the Finals to a team (obviously the Bruins) that was tougher than they were, even though overall I think you can confidently say that they weren't quite as talented. The Bruins just had that playoff team roster, no holes, a strong backup goalie (even though Rask didn't play a single second in the playoffs), great defence, great goaltending, and a tough team with heart that will battle to the bitter end to win. Then there were the Broad Street Bullies who won back-to-back Cups, arguably the toughest NHL team ever assembled. You need that talent up front with the Sedins in Vancouver and Datsyuk and co. in Detroit, but without that team toughness that the Bruins had with the likes of Lucic, Marchand, Thornton, Chara, etc. your task becomes much more difficult in the postseason; play is chippier, it's more physical, and you need to protect your star players that much more.
And one more thing: GLORY! GLORY! HALLELUJAH! Tom Gilbert is GONE! I have never hated a player more than that diseased lizard and he's finally gone. I would've gladly taken a bag of pucks or even a punch in the face from Manny Pacquiao to see Gilbert leave Edmonton. Nick Schultz will do just fine by me.
And one more thing: GLORY! GLORY! HALLELUJAH! Tom Gilbert is GONE! I have never hated a player more than that diseased lizard and he's finally gone. I would've gladly taken a bag of pucks or even a punch in the face from Manny Pacquiao to see Gilbert leave Edmonton. Nick Schultz will do just fine by me.
PlasmaTwa2
The Second-Hottest Man in my Mother's Basement
An even better example would be Ottawa and Anaheim. That was probably the biggest mismatch of the decade. The Ducks were better across the board and were the toughest team in the league by a mile. Playing Ottawa was just a formality by the time they made it to the Finals.
Marlo Manson
Hello Sexy girl how your Toes doing?
All I am saying is in 97, 98, 02 we had some toughness on those teams or just the right mix of finesse and toughness too finally win Lord Stanley's Cup, in 08 we had a few guys but they were not enforcers per say they just had the edge to do what it took to overcome any obstacle in 09 our lack of team toughness was a glaring weakness and it cost us a championship in our own barn, not to mention, we were eliminated the following playoff years because our stars got punished more often then desired, if you don't stand up for your stars, your special teams aka the PP isn't gonna always be the deciding factor, if all our stars are banged up, not available what good is the PP if it isn't being played by the SUPERSTARS that made it a weapon. Lidstrom was crippled because he got speared in the groin, Datsyuk was banged up, Bertuzzi had a concussion, the list of casualties and walking wounded was significant enough to let the penguins win game 7 on our ice. 
:cussing:
Atleast the 97, 98, 02 teams had guys that wouldn't have let that happen cuz they would have held court on the ice!!! even the 08 team had a couple of guys that were formidable / gritty enough too make sure our team was protected. I am tired of arguing about this, I don't like having a SOFT team its a liability and we can't control fate, so be that as it may, Holland has won cups for us and he has also lost atleast 1 for sure cup because of his ideology, so if you or anybody who is reading this doesn't agree with me, that fine lets just call it a conflict of interest and say we agree to disagree with eachother's take on the subject. :2 cents:
:cussing: Atleast the 97, 98, 02 teams had guys that wouldn't have let that happen cuz they would have held court on the ice!!! even the 08 team had a couple of guys that were formidable / gritty enough too make sure our team was protected. I am tired of arguing about this, I don't like having a SOFT team its a liability and we can't control fate, so be that as it may, Holland has won cups for us and he has also lost atleast 1 for sure cup because of his ideology, so if you or anybody who is reading this doesn't agree with me, that fine lets just call it a conflict of interest and say we agree to disagree with eachother's take on the subject. :2 cents:
All I am saying is in 97, 98, 02 we had some toughness on those teams or just the right mix of finesse and toughness too finally win Lord Stanley's Cup, in 08 we had a few guys but they were not enforcers per say they just had the edge to do what it took to overcome any obstacle in 09 our lack of team toughness was a glaring weakness and it cost us a championship in our own barn, not to mention, we were eliminated the following playoff years because our stars got punished more often then desired, if you don't stand up for your stars, your special teams aka the PP isn't gonna always be the deciding factor, if all our stars are banged up, not available what good is the PP if it isn't being played by the SUPERSTARS that made it a weapon. Lidstrom was crippled because he got speared in the groin, Datsyuk was banged up, Bertuzzi had a concussion, the list of casualties and walking wounded was significant enough to let the penguins win game 7 on our ice.
Atleast the 97, 98, 02 teams had guys that wouldn't have let that happen cuz they would have held court on the ice!!! even the 08 team had a couple of guys that were formidable / gritty enough too make sure our team was protected. I am tired of arguing about this, I don't like having a SOFT team its a liability and we can't control fate, so be that as it may, Holland has won cups for us and he has also lost atleast 1 for sure cup because of his ideology, so if you or anybody who is reading this doesn't agree with me, that fine lets just call it a conflict of interest and say we agree to disagree with eachother's take on the subject. :2 cents:
I understand that there is no McCarty or Lapointe or even Shanahan or Chelios in Detroit anymore. But that is also the way the league has gone post lockout. It is open ice, and more skill focused. It's not like other teams really "push around" Detroit, there is no need for enforcers in today's NHL.
I'm not sure what that was all about but at this point it's clear the Wild are the worst team in the league. Of course they've had more injuries and called up more AHL bums than any other club but they are just dreadful at this point. Trading their longest tenured player in franchise history doesn't make a ton of sense but he's gone now. The trade all in all is pretty much a wash just from the naked eye right off the bat. We'll see how these players adjust to their new scenes.
Marlo Manson
Hello Sexy girl how your Toes doing?
Agree'd, there's no need for enfocers right now, it may become an issue again if the powers that be, would realize the Instigator penalty allows players too take runs and liberties with opposing players without fear of getting fucked up because Bettman doesn't want the children too see fighting. there's a bunch of reason's guys are getting concussions on a regular basis now, 1 is becuase of the cement block equipment guys are allowed to wear, and there's no accountability for guys who do things on the ice too take advantage of an opposing player... that said, I am talking about guys, who can fight when need be, stick up for there teammates when something happens on the ice, play a regular shift without being a liability to the teams dressing that player, a guy who can contribute somehow if its not fighting, a guy who be used in different situations. Shannahan was a perfect example, Steve Ott, Milan Lucic, Chara, simmonds, there's a bunch of guys who are tough, gritty, and are all around players who could be considered an asset. enforcers are usually one dimensional, there were exceptions to that, stereo-type, but, they are few and far between. I fully understand the role of an enforcer has been greatly reduced, but they are still effective when used. :2 cents:
Unless you're really fucking skilled at every position, you need those guys. No coincidence Shawn up there has 2 Cups.
PlasmaTwa2
The Second-Hottest Man in my Mother's Basement
Unless you're really fucking skilled at every position, you need those guys. No coincidence Shawn up there has 2 Cups.
Except Boston and Anaheim were both really fucking skilled at every position. The toughness was just a free perk for their opponents. :tongue:
I completely disagree. The need for enforcers has never been greater than it is today. The plethora of concussions and dirty play is evidence enough for that. You look at essentially all the great players to play in the last thirty to forty years and they all had an enforcer behind them to keep the other teams honest. A lot of star players don't have that anymore and, subsequently, are getting injured. While I agree that the NHL has gone the way of the skilled, open-ice game since the lockout, I do not agree in the slightest that that has eliminated the need for enforcers in today's NHL. The one thing I will say is that if a team can put skilled players on the ice who can act as enforcers when need be, then you have a winning formula (the Bruins are a perfect example with Lucic, Chara, Marchand). I am not one of those fans who wants to see Zach Stortini out there fighting everybody just because he's a tough hombre because he flat out doesn't belong in the NHL because he's not a good enough hockey player. But teams without guys who can dish it out have very little chance of succeeding in the postseason and are putting their star players at risk every night because there's no fear from the opposition of retaliation.
It is not the lack of an enforcer that is getting stars injured or increasing concussions. Instead it is a larger focus on safety; instead of "just rubbing some dirt on it," the league, teams and players are taking these injuries more serious. Look at Crosby in the pre-lockout NHL he would have probably played this whole season (maybe even last post-season) and "sucked-it-up." It is a culture change in terms of players are regulated by suspensions and fines not fights. Excuse me for using an ESPN link, but this is an AP article that uses Brian Burke, the guy who built the Ducks team that keeps getting pointed to as "a tough team that won."
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/7...-burke-calls-decline-fighting-dangerous-trend
I highly recommend this article as it is so very appropriate for this debate.
I can't speak for Anaheim, but Boston? Really? We couldn't score a powerplay goal to save our lives. Goaltending - Absolutely, but in terms of forwards/defense... I think not. What the B's did have was extremely solid, responsible players at every position. We had a couple of big guns, sure, but nothing compared to the high-end talent Vancouver, Tampa, and even Philly had. I can think of maybe 2 players from last year's roster that wouldn't have taken a swing at you if you poked him enough times, and I think it's a big reason why they won.
I have to ask you how you think that this article supports your stance in any way? It is saying a lot of the same things that I said in my post: it is saying how the NHL has gone the way of the speed and skill game (which I said in my post, I don't know if that's what you're trying to argue for still because I already agreed with that), how concussions and dirty play are up more than ever (evidenced by the fact that Shanahan is flooded with phone calls and has suspended so many players for dirty play), how enforcers are no longer valued, and how that is a possible factor in the increase in concussions and dirty play. Burke is lamenting the fact that he has to send down an enforcer and expresses his disgust at how the game has changed so that enforcers aren't out there to keep players accountable anymore, and how, as a result, players are playing dirty without the fear of consequences. The very title of the article is "Toronto Maple Leafs' GM Brian Burke calls decline in fighting a 'dangerous' trend".
To say that the increase in concussions is due to "a larger focus on safety" is patently false. Concussions and dirty play are at an all-time high regardless of whether or not players were diagnosed or healed properly in the past. That fact is undebatable. The focus on safety is a contributing factor, but in my opinion it's a very minor one. You're correct when you say that Crosby would've played the whole season prior to the lockout because prior to the lockout he would've had an enforcer to ensure that he didn't get hit in a dirty fashion (twice) the way he did. So he would've never had a concussion in the first place. Gretzky was untouchable (not just because Dave Semenko/Marty McSorley would've ripped your head off if you touched him, but also because he was the entire NHL's meal ticket) and he never suffered a major concussion. Also, I made the point that I don't wanna see guys out on the ice who aren't skilled enough to play NHL hockey and who are just out there to fight (like Zach Stortini); Colton Orr fits exactly into that bill.
You flat out need players who can keep the opponents honest so as to protect your star players. If every team had that there wouldn't be an epidemic of concussions and dirty play the way there is today.
i couldnt agree with you more... i am a diehard devils fan, and especially scott stevens... say what you will about him, but agitators knew their place when he was on ice. sean avery wouldnt have a career pre lockout. there have always been goons and cheap hits (BERTUZZI INCIDENT) but the nhl cannot and should not eliminate players managing their own games through physicality.
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