i'm not single them out, only thing i do think is that it shows no respect to the victims of 11/9 to put a mosque there and i think many agree with me on that, 50 years ago most of europe was very catholic as south America is now but luckely we accept other cultures. i hope countries like Arabia can do that as well one day.
Mosque’s opponents have taken opposite position in court
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i'm not single them out, only thing i do think is that it shows no respect to the victims of 11/9 to put a mosque there and i think many agree with me on that, 50 years ago most of europe was very catholic as south America is now but luckely we accept other cultures. i hope countries like Arabia can do that as well one day.
You're right that Europe is far more accepting now but this isn't because the religion has changed (Christianity), it's more to do with the fact that people have become less religious and more civilised and tolerant which is the best way forward. How many 'Christians' will regularly go to church, abstain from sex before marriage, only have kids during marriage, stay married till death and not steal or commit adultery. You'll find that the Bible has just as mush violence as the Koran as well as far out events like the the Noahs Ark and Moses And The Parting Of The Seas but how many of us believe 100% without hesitation that this is fact? Find a committed Christan and they'll still tell you things like homosexuality is wrong as well as sex and children outside marriage as that is their interpretation of the religious scriptures. I guess you can say Religion has lost its dominance in Europe and actually plays very little part in Politics and Governance, a lot less than America anyway.
Now you look at the religions of both Islam and Judaism, the followers are almost always very committed and it is very hard if not impossible for them to accept non jews/muslims into their inner circles as there is a strong need for a lot of faith. This is maybe why you get so much intolerence and isolation in the Muslim and Jewish communities as well as the most religious fanatics. This is why the Middle East will never be as open as the likes of Europe, we've shaken off a lot of the religious shackles of our past but this is near impossible in the religions of Islam and Judaism, not in our lifetimes anyway.
In respect of the Mosque Planning application I say let the Planning Office decide based on laws/rules and regulations, if the application fails then make sure it fails for a legitimate reason that has some legal standing, otherwise won't the terrorists have won by getting you to bypass your own laws? And those who think that the fanatics will see this as a victory for them should not worry about what people/groups outside the US think, America should make decisions based on its own laws and legal proceedings free from any external influence to show that nothing will change its way of life. In any case most fanatics proclaim that America is at war with Islam and they drum up support from the masses based on this assumption, building a mosque near ground zero would the best way to refute that claim, not that you need to or should have to but it will surely play on peoples minds, especially muslims living far away who only have the fanatics to listen to.
on the point that Europe is mostly non-Religious i agree with you, also i believe that religion does not make a man better. (as i am also non-religious) , i do believe though that you can have respect for eachother and how-ever you turn and change it is not acceptable to put a mosque on ground zero, simply not to please terrorist, as for the (most of them ) good moslims among them, there must be another spot where they can put a mosque and them being just as happy with it.. !?
vodkazvictim
Why save the world, when you can rule it?
OK, perhaps I phased it poorly, but I'm sure you understood my point.
Everything in moderation right? The golden middle as the Russkis would say.
:thumbsup:
I'm also not religious. I look around and see so much trouble caused by one religion or another, when people follow religion so extremely and so blindly they lose all their humanity, people have killed women and children in cold blood in the name or religion. You get wars over places of religious significance (The Middle East) or different religious groups wanting their own homeland such as Kurdistan (Turkey/Iraq), Khalistan (Sikhs in Punjab region of India), Kashmir, Chechnya, Cyprus, Northern Ireland and the former State of Yugoslavia. Just 15 years ago in civilised Europe you got the Srebrenica massacre where 8000 unarmed Bosniac Men and Boys were executed just for being muslim and then so many Jews killed in the Holocaust just for being Jewish. You strip away all the religions and we're all pretty much the same, we may still have different cultures but unlike Religion we can integrate into other cultures as a harmonious group. People will always defend religions by saying that the principles promote good intentions but extremists always hijack religions and use them as an excuse to kill, harm and differentiate one another. :2 cents:
i agree on this, and that is why it's so sad that so many people are still being killed because of religion... i wish this would stop...
i've heard a lot of the would iraq let a synagogue be built in osirak? type arguments but really do we want to let iraq or iran or anywhere else equally fucked up be the baseline for how we act here in the u.s.?
Like I've hinted before it's like a land owner building a monument commemorating Von dem Bach Zelewski in the middle of Warsaw or an SS monument for camp guards outside of Treblinka or Chelmno.
It would be insensitive and contentious. The only reason to do it would be to get attention and stir up trouble.
This Cordoba crap should be stopped.
It would be insensitive and contentious. The only reason to do it would be to get attention and stir up trouble.
This Cordoba crap should be stopped.
I totally disagree. For Christ sake, Islamic terrorists pervert Islam! It was not the religion of Islam that hit the towers, it was psychopaths who corrupt that religion to justify their sick ends.
The bigotted idiots arguing against the mosque are blowing the site way out of proportion. THERE ARE OVER ONE HUNDRED MOSQUES IN N.Y.C.!! There is one already a mosque 4 blocks away!
Following these detractors' reasoning, should all of these mosques should be eliminated? Should American Muslims not be able to worship because a few perverters of the faith did a despicable act? Should nobody be able to practice free-religion in the U.S. because of some radical Islamic imbeciles? People are still resorting to the simplistic and reductionist idea that Islam is a monolithic religion! It makes me ashamed of my country... land of the free my ass...
Blame the muslim psychopaths for the public outcry. Bigot? Hardly.
This Cordoba thing shouldn't be built period. Almost 3,000 were murdered by 19 Muslim Takfiris. Building anything so close to hallowed ground is an abomination.
Just wonderin' for a moment...
Where was the Conservative ~OUTRAGE~ in 2004/2005 when that company in Dubai wanted to takeover the U.S. port system? I remember hearing a lot of Congressional GOP'ers saying this was a "smart business decision for a global economy"
If there wasn't random conservative outrage toward muslims over that deal back in the day, why now over a much more harmless deal like a mosque?
Just askin', cuz, I dunno, it seems much easier (and cheaper) to monitor the comings/goings at a mosque in downtown NYC rather than cargo containers coming in from WhoKnowsWhere? :anonymous:
Where was the Conservative ~OUTRAGE~ in 2004/2005 when that company in Dubai wanted to takeover the U.S. port system? I remember hearing a lot of Congressional GOP'ers saying this was a "smart business decision for a global economy"
If there wasn't random conservative outrage toward muslims over that deal back in the day, why now over a much more harmless deal like a mosque?
Just askin', cuz, I dunno, it seems much easier (and cheaper) to monitor the comings/goings at a mosque in downtown NYC rather than cargo containers coming in from WhoKnowsWhere? :anonymous:
You still haven't responded to what I said "Should nobody be able to practice free-religion in the U.S. because of some radical Islamic imbeciles? People are still resorting to the simplistic and reductionist idea that Islam is a monolithic religion"
There has also been an outcry by many for religious tolerance, but I'm sure you don't want anything to do with that.
& you are still wrong. It's not a valid comparison. . .:thefinger
Just wonderin' for a moment...
Where was the Conservative ~OUTRAGE~ in 2004/2005 when that company in Dubai wanted to takeover the U.S. port system? I remember hearing a lot of Congressional GOP'ers saying this was a "smart business decision for a global economy"
If there wasn't random conservative outrage toward muslims over that deal back in the day, why now over a much more harmless deal like a mosque?
Just askin', cuz, I dunno, it seems much easier (and cheaper) to monitor the comings/goings at a mosque in downtown NYC rather than cargo containers coming in from WhoKnowsWhere? :anonymous:
You're 100% right and I really don't understand the limited government/Constitutional "Right" (which I belong to) trying to argue this idea in any legal way. I think the mosque is designed to be provocative, but that should have no influence on the matter. There is no legal reason to prevent it from being built.
That being said, are you suggesting that, because this is a mosque/Islamic center, the government has a right and/or duty to monitor it as they would incoming cargo? I'm not suggesting that you're implying that...I'm just asking since you added no caveat to the statement.
No it's a valid comparison. So...:thefinger
This has nothing to do with "religious" freedom. This has everything to do with being sensitive to all the victims which means non-muslim victims.
Has everyone forgotten how these people died? How some jumped to certain death? 19 muslim Takfiris were responsible.
How interesting to see such empathy to the victims here.
Weren't all the people involved in the Oklahoma city bombing (McVeigh,Nichols) christians? You can't indict a whole religion or group based on what some members of such group have done.Even Bush said this wasn't about Islam and we weren't going after them as a group.In fact he said what we were trying to do was protect them as much as anyone else by going after the more radical elements.
I believe our beloved Patriot Act opens the door for all kinds of surveillance in all kinds of places including houses of worship. I don't think the Federal Gov't intentionally practices the same kind of stereotyping that the GOP (and some Dems) is publicly committing with respect to this Mosque.
I do believe the Federal Gov't has an obligation to protect/scan cargo/ports. We need to increase the funding dramatically for this. If we leave it to States to fund than we create a patchwork of standards (some tough, some loose).
The City of Manhattan, the state of New York and President Bush had years and years to "build something"--they dropped the ball and now this situation has roared back to bite them.
A mosque is not my first choice, but since nobody has a plan for anything, and if this mosque organization has its funding in line...:dunno:
I'm not indicting every muslim!!!
However, the Cordoba mosque is very insensitive to the memory of NON MUSLIMS who were burned, maimed, crushed, and obliterated by Takfiri Muslims in the name of their frakkin allah.
Has empathy gone away or something?!!!
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