jimmy carter to meet with hamas

[dick van cock]

On the issue of recognition -Carter asked whether Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist - Answer: Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist in its pre-1967 border - just as all other 22 arab countries have agreed to do. How? They would support any peace deal negotiated by Abbas and the Israelis IF it were then supported by the Palestenian people in a referendum. Further, on the issue of recognition, Hamas would not exchange diplomats with Israel however. They have said so publicly and are on the record.

Only a brief reply:

Hamas currently talks about hudna (peaceful coexistence), not about peace or reconciliation with Israel. All they have offered Carter in the talks is a ten-year ceasefire, believing their position will continue to strengthen in order to accomplish their long-term goals in the foreseeable future.

From the Hamas Charter:

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems kill the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.

Dream on, Mr. Carter! :wave:

 

[negator]

an important fact that hasn't been discussed: the pre-1967 borders are militarily indefensible. hamas knows israel will never concede this.

this conflict will never be resolved while the usa (and whoever comes next) continues to meddle and fund both sides.

and now? some smileys: :yesyes::yesyes::yesyes::yesyes::yesyes:

 

[georges]

an important fact that hasn't been discussed: the pre-1967 borders are militarily indefensible. hamas knows israel will never concede this.

this conflict will never be resolved while the usa (and whoever comes next) continues to meddle and fund both sides.

and now? some smileys: :yesyes::yesyes::yesyes::yesyes::yesyes:

the only way to have peace is to wipe the hamas and the fatah from the face of the earth

 

[LBP 76]

an important fact that hasn't been discussed: the pre-1967 borders are militarily indefensible. hamas knows israel will never concede this.

Who is Israel defending themselves from? As long as they have U.S. backing and the only nuclear weapons in the region they are COMPLETELY immune from invasion from ANYONE in the Middle East.

 

[LBP 76]

the only way to have peace is to wipe the hamas and the fatah from the face of the earth

Does that include their children too?

 

[georges]

Does that include their children too?

not their children, not their wives but all the men and people who finance them.

 

[LBP 76]

not their children, not their wives but all the men and people who finance them.

Well, it probably won't stop then. When you kill a father often times the children want revenge and take up the cause themselves.

There has been enough killing there. It has to stop. The question is who will let their hate go first. Because that is all this is about now...hate. Who will be the Gandhi of the Middle East to convince both sides to stop?

 

[Friday on my mind]

Well, it probably won't stop then. When you kill a father often times the children want revenge and take up the cause themselves.

There has been enough killing there. It has to stop. The question is who will let their hate go first. Because that is all this is about now...hate. Who will be the Gandhi of the Middle East to convince both sides to stop?

You got that right LBP.First off it would be impractical and is a ridculous notion to wipe them off the map anyway, and even if you could you would get most off the women and children doing it.And as you say even if you could the cyccle of violence would be continued when the children sought revenge as adults.

 

[LBP 76]

By your own logic, that people who finance murder should be killed, then you and I and all our friends and families should all be killed too, since we finance state sponsored murder every time we pay taxes. There are two sides to every story,

Yes, ALWAYS and in all disagreements.

and you are so extremely completely invested in absolute violent bloodthirsty terrorist extremism, that you can't see that you're exactly like your enemies,

Well, I think that is going too far. He seems to believe (like most men) that violence can solve problems and that there has to be a good and a bad guy. He just has the guts to say what most American/Europeon men (and many women) probably really think. His intentions seem basically decent, though his methods may leave something to be desired.


And yes, I realize I often seem incredibly full of myself...sorry.

 

[Friday on my mind]

If you think my words are going too far, it's only that I draw my same words from the words he uses to describe his enemies. It's he that views himself like that. He just projects that onto the other side. I don't blame either side. But I'm not afraid to tell them that they are what they believe their enemies are. because they are.

The Nazis had decent intentions. They wiped many Jews out of Europe with decent intentions. Now we are hearing that Hamas and Fatah should be wiped from the face of the earth. When are we going to learn that wiping anything off the face of the earth means we are the bloodthirsty terrorists. We are. Deny it all you want.

As the say fox "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".Just look at american lifestyle of mass consumption of energy as its basis.That was started with all good intentions but is clearly now leading us to an enviormental hell.

 

[dick van cock]

The Nazis had decent intentions. They wiped many Jews out of Europe with decent intentions. Now we are hearing that Hamas and Fatah should be wiped from the face of the earth. When are we going to learn that wiping anything off the face of the earth means we are the bloodthirsty terrorists. We are. Deny it all you want.

For once, Godwin's law may not be a bad thing after all...

But if there's a party in the Middle East comparable to the Nazis, it's not Israel.

Hamas provides social security (Winterhilfswerk Redux?); Hamas was democratically elected (30th of January again?); Hamas vows to kill all Jews (Good evening, Mr. Eichmann!)

 

[LBP 76]

The Nazis had decent intentions. They wiped many Jews out of Europe with decent intentions.

I have liked many of the posts of yours in this and other threads that I have read today...but 'decent intentions'? I have to strongly disagree with you there. The Nazi's knew that when people have a common enemy, they are easy to control. So Hitler gave them one: Jews. His intentions weren't decent; just a fanatical lust for power and a shrewd understanding of the common man in post WW1 Germany.

 

[Friday on my mind]

I have liked many of the posts of yours in this and other threads that I have read today...but 'decent intentions'? I have to strongly disagree with you there. The Nazi's knew that when people have a common enemy, they are easy to control. So Hitler gave them one. Jews.

No it wasn't just a tool to manipulate people with IMO and I have read a lot of books and am currently reading a new book on the period.Hitler and his followers(for the most part) actually beleived what they said and in what they were doing.Just as americans beleived they were right in clearing North america of natives.That such things were neccesary for eitheir the survival of germany or in the US case neccesary for us to be able to populate the land with civilized europeans.

 

[bloomington]

the only way to have peace is to wipe the hamas and the fatah from the face of the earth

Thats true - there wouldnt be any Palestenians left since practically everyone is a supporter of one or the other. Besides, Sharon tried the ethnic cleansing thing in Saabra and Shatilla in Lebanon in the 1980s with the massacre of hundreds of unarmed and defenceless Palestenian civilians INCLUDING the women and children. Remember?? Thats why he was kicked out of the Israeli army. The only thing that saved him from the international war crimes court in the Hague for so many years was the US vetoing his extradition time and time again for years and years - and after that, the demise of his health.

Using your logic however, one could also say that on the flipside, peace would be achieved by wiping out every Jew on the planet.

Ethnic cleansing however is sooo passe!

 

[georges]

By your own logic, that people who finance murder should be killed, then you and I and all our friends and families should all be killed too, since we finance state sponsored murder every time we pay taxes. There are two sides to every story, and you are so extremely completely invested in absolute violent bloodthirsty terrorist extremism, that you can't see that you're exactly like your enemies, and the only way to end the violence on both sides is simply to find a middle ground and put down your guns and de-brainwash yourself from your thirst for blood.


It will take a lot of Gandhis. We can all try.

My logic I heard? Let's be clear. I don't sponsor, don't give money to suspicious organizations whose missions is to send boys or adults who will blow themselves in the bus and kill innocent people and I am not living in a state where such a thing is authorized so how can you compare me to those people??? Your sense of logic is flawed. I sometimes wonder who gave you your american citizenship under Bush because to be honest you are so anti american and such a leftist, not only you spit on the second amendment and the right to bear and own arms but also because you insult deeply the military and blame it for all the misery of the world. I have no thirst for blood. What I have a thirst for is to see terrorist organizations completely eradicated and all their leading members killed. You are a hippie and a greedy communist also the way you consider filth like Hamas and Fatah as good doers as much as you consider Ahmadinejhad as great iranian leader tells a lot about you. You should be ashamed of yourself, if you dislike the US so much why not going back to Iran?

 

[LBP 76]

No it wasn't just a tool to manipulate people with IMO and I have read a lot of books and am currently reading a new book on the period.Hitler and his followers(for the most part) actually beleived what they said and in what they were doing.Just as americans beleived they were right in clearing North america of natives.

Oh, I know they believed it. But you can convince the masses of anything if they are desperate enough. But that kind of anti-Semetic/anti-minority crap was common all over the World then. Not just in Germany. But in Hitler's early writing's he said (if I recall correctly) that he needed to get the German people to hate a group so that he could lead the charge against them. It was a deliberate political move on his part. And it worked, politically. He just chose Jews because they were an obvious target that he also hated.

 

[georges]

Thats true - there wouldnt be any Palestenians left since practically everyone is a supporter of one or the other. Besides, Sharon tried the ethnic cleansing thing in Saabra and Shatilla in Lebanon in the 1980s with the massacre of hundreds of unarmed and defenceless Palestenian civilians INCLUDING the women and children. Remember?? Thats why he was kicked out of the Israeli army. The only thing that saved him from the international war crimes court in the Hague for so many years was the US vetoing his extradition time and time again for years and years - and after that, the demise of his health.

Using your logic however, one could also say that on the flipside, peace would be achieved by wiping out every Jew on the planet.

Ethnic cleansing however is sooo passe!

I have never heard you talking about Arafat who was stealing money given from the UN to Palestinians, I have never heard you talking about what happened in Munich in 1972 or about the Kassams launched by Palestinians and killing Israeli civilians every day.

 

[dick van cock]

I have never heard you talking about Arafat who was stealing money given from the UN to Palestinian, I have never heard you talking about what happened in Munich in 1972 or about the Kassams launched by Palestinians and killing Israeli civilians every day.

... maybe because these acts were committed in self defense...? :1orglaugh

 

[LBP 76]

Ahhh. You must make the distinction between the Nazi leaders and the Nazi followers. Like DVC and Georges, the followers had good intentions, but Nazi followers were willing to support murder and even mass murder or genocide.

The Nazi leaders manipulated them. Just as all leaders do. But the people had decent intentions. People don't want to admit that Nazis and Child Molesters are human beings. They are, and we are, and we all have a lot in common.

Well most German's weren't Nazi's. Many just voted for the party. Plus, most German's were shocked and horrified about the death camps. They are not innocent. But most were against the 'Final solution to the Jewish question'.
Those that actually murdered the Jews (and similar people who murdered Cambodians in the 70's and Rwandans in the 90's and so on) didn't have good intentions. Those that were sane knew what they did was wrong, but they let the Nazi propaganda allow them to bury their morals.

Sorry to go off topic.

 

[dick van cock]

DVC

But like I always say, history will view your nation (Israel) very very critically, and while they are no Nazis, they are certainly murderers, *at least* to the same extent that Palestine is, and almost to the extent that America is, but not on the same scale. The difference is Israel are well off and America is dirty dirty rich, so we are worse. We don't have extreme poverty to drive us to our terrorism - just hatred and blindness and brainwashing.

Since you addressed me directly, you deserve an answer, fox.

I am not really interested what happened in the past. What we need is a workable solution for the future. But Hezbollah and Hamas will never accept a Palestinian homeland alongside Israel. They won't allow anything but a Palestinian state instead of Israel. If Maschaal or anyone else says anything different, then I take it for what it is: mimickry and lip service.

If Israel does not defend itself with appropriate means (which unfortunately bring about civilian deaths among innocent Palestinians), it won't exist for very much longer.

Peace was possible with sensible leaders like Sadat, Mubarak and King Hussein. Israel has tried with Arafat after he had forsworn violence. As long as Hamas and Hezbollah won't lay down their arms and cut off ties with Syria and Iran, there is no basis for negotiations with them whatsoever.

Don't forget that the Palestinians are not an isolated, oppressed, innocent people. Their wealthy friends reside in Tehran, Damascus and Riyadh. While their arsenal is diminutive compared to the IDF's, they can rely on a growing force of willing martyrs (impatiently awaiting the 30 huris in paradise) and the deep pockets of Mr. I'm a Dinner Jacket.

As I already said: I'm afraid that demographics will resolve the matter.

Shalom, mate!