jimmy carter to meet with hamas
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Carter did not sign any agreements,all he did was open up some dialogue that led to the agreement made during the Clinton administration.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E3DC1131F935A25752C0A9659C8B63
And while that did not stop the North Koreans from further development of nuclear weapons I do think it was something worth trying.I don't think Carter does not see a world with dangers in fact he sees them very well IMO.But we really need to stop thinking in terms of good guys ,bad guys where everything is so black and white.Everyone has interests and motives,are ours always so admirable?Is it really any surprise that other nations want nuclear capability.I really think that it would be very helpfull for all nuclear countries to renounce the possesion of them and move towards disarmament.It is a tough arguement for the US to make that we have a right to possess them but other nations don't.The existence of all these weapons and the further proliferation almost insures that someday one will be detonated eithier by design or by accident.We just had a recent case of a B-52 that flew within the US with 6 armed nukes on board and the crew of the plane didn't even know it.Everyone agrees pretty much that any nuclear exchange would be a holocaust and could very well be the end of mankind.As LBJ said more than 40 yrs ago in the famous daisy ad "we must eithier love each other or we must die".
1964 LBJ Political ad - Daisy H-Bomb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyVn9k6d1og
Thankfully we and the Russians found a way not to destroy each other and we were moving towards disarmament once in negotiations with them.And I think there is no doubt that it is the US that has moved away from that path with our continued development of new weapons and the withdrawl from treaties we had signed like the AMB treaty.The russisans were broke and couldn't match our spending on such things any longer,that was a real opportunity to be rid of them.We choose a different path unfortunately.
That man is out of his mind. He should be stripped of his privileges as former U.S. president.
dick van cock
Closed Account
Jimmy only listens to Jesus and John Lennon ...
:sing: They might say I'm dreamer :sing:
.... and they' re fricking right!
Well done on him.
Israel has its fair share of horrors to its name. Over 18,000 Palestinian homes have been demolished since the occupation of 1967, and yet we not only talk to them, we aid them and are allied to them. While castigating Palestinian terror groups, it ought to be made clear that Israel has plenty of blood on its own hands.
My thoughts on the Israeli-Palestinian subject always return to this letter by Mahatma Gandhi: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/JewsGandhi.html
This might have a little something to do with it too: http://www.hamdden.co.uk/Images/Palestinian_land_loss_Map.jpg
Israel has its fair share of horrors to its name. Over 18,000 Palestinian homes have been demolished since the occupation of 1967, and yet we not only talk to them, we aid them and are allied to them. While castigating Palestinian terror groups, it ought to be made clear that Israel has plenty of blood on its own hands.
My thoughts on the Israeli-Palestinian subject always return to this letter by Mahatma Gandhi: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/JewsGandhi.html
Mahatma Gandhi said:
This might have a little something to do with it too: http://www.hamdden.co.uk/Images/Palestinian_land_loss_Map.jpg
dick van cock
Closed Account
Don't you think that there is a significant difference between intentional murder (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades) and collateral damage (IDF)?
Please don't disqualify yourself by labelling the IDF as murderers... :dunno:
I have Jewish blood, although I'm not a Jew since I was never raised as one, and crucially, the blood is entirely on my father's side. I have extended family living in Israel too. So my criticism of Israel is never ever an endorsement for those terrorist groups to perpetrate those criminal acts against innocent civilians.
But to answer your question, I don't there's any real difference between the terms 'terrorism', 'intentional murder' and 'collateral damage'. Collateral damage is usually a euphemism for mass murder. The idea that you can regularly drop bombs into extremely crowded neighbourhoods, and then say, 'well, we were only targeting the bad guy who lives on that corner of the street - we didn't mean to kill all those women and children!' is completely repugnant to me. It's like the police driving down the street mowing down scores of innocent people just to get to the one dangerous lunatic with a gun.
I am a cosmopolite when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict -- I believe in the duty of human beings towards other human beings regardless of which national or ethnic group they belong to. I think the very ideology of Zionism was morally evil and unjustifiable, but that peace is the only solution in the current climate. Both sides have committed atrocities, and consequently, diplomacy is required of both groups of murderers and terrorists -- those in the Israeli government and those on the council of the Palestinan Authority.
Comon - does anyone believe that the White House will not be interested in what he discovered?? Of course he is going to brief them. Publicly the White House says one thing, but behind closed doors they will certainly be interested in what Carter has to say - and so too will Hillary and Obama and McCain.
And lets be clear - Hamas is not the enemy of anyone in the west. They fight to liberate THEIR land from Israel. These so called "towns" that they fire crude rockets at, are ILLEGAL settlements, a violation of international law, a violation of the Geneva convention and a violation of several dozen security council resolutions. How do we act? For doing this - we reward the Israelis with $4.5 billion dollars per year so they can turn around and buy Caterpillar made bulldozers and bulldoze homes of Palestenians, build more settlements on Palestenian land etc etc.
Lets remember a few things. First...what came first..the occupation or the rockets??
Second, Israel is in violation of more security council resolutions than ALL OTHER COUNTRIES COMBINED!!! Why is it that in many general assembly resolutions we are one of 2 or 3 countries who support the Israelis while 95% of the world's population supports the Palestenians. Have you ever done some research and seen the votes?? They are like 191 - 2 etc etc.
Third, when Jews were living under Arab rule in Palestine they were never persecuted, infact, Jews fled to Palestine to escape the Nazis.
Fourth, any country that uses my tax money to bomb innocent civilians using F16 fighters and tanks disgusts me - killing innocent civilians while wearing a soldier's uniform does NOT make you a hero in my book and u are certainly not better than anyone who kills innocents with a bus bomb both are deliberate acts of terror and reprehensible. Check out some amateur video rather than watching CNN and u start to see the other side.
Fifth, Israel and the Palestenians would have peace tomorrow if ISRAEL would go back to the 1967 borders (as mandated by resolutions 242 and 338). Hamas has publicly declared that on more than one occasion and have said that they would back a peace deal negotiated by Abbas - so they are not impeding the peace process. I could go on and on but I will stop but consider this.
So Carter talks to them. Why wont we talk to them when even many Israeli politicians are willing to talk to them?? Why are we more Israeli than they are themselves? Its because the Jews living in the US are far more radical than those living in Israel proper and so we adopt a radical stance. Obama would talk to Iran but NOT Hamas?? Are you kidding me??? Who is a greater threat to our country and our boys over in the Gulf?? Iran or Hamas???? He's so scared of the Jewish lobby (AIPAC) that he would rather talk to Iran who supplies weapons to Shiites to kill our boys than to talk to Hamas who's only objective is to liberate their land?? Who's fucking foreign policy is he following - Israel's or ours???
I for one am sick of carrying out a foreign policy based on whats right for Israel rather than whats right for the US of A!! and I am sick and tired of spending OUR tax money to prop up a despicable state that is starving Gaza to death, is in violation of dozens of UN Resolutions, in violation of the Geneva Convention, breaks international law, uses human shields etc etc.
Two more points - it is a fact that the rockets are coming from Gaza so why does Israel attack and kill Palestenians in the West Bank, build settlements there etc etc. Seems to me that no matter what the Palestenians do whether its try to resolve the conflict through negotiations or by armed liberation, Israel's response is and will continue to be the same - so I say power to the Palestenians. I know no one here would advocate that we would sit idly by if the USSR occupied our country and "negotiate" and behave like good little dogs - so why would we expect others to do it. Iraq didnt even attack us and we have brought hell's fury with us over there - now just imagine if Iraq invaded and occupied us. Nuff said!
And lets be clear - Hamas is not the enemy of anyone in the west. They fight to liberate THEIR land from Israel. These so called "towns" that they fire crude rockets at, are ILLEGAL settlements, a violation of international law, a violation of the Geneva convention and a violation of several dozen security council resolutions. How do we act? For doing this - we reward the Israelis with $4.5 billion dollars per year so they can turn around and buy Caterpillar made bulldozers and bulldoze homes of Palestenians, build more settlements on Palestenian land etc etc.
Lets remember a few things. First...what came first..the occupation or the rockets??
Second, Israel is in violation of more security council resolutions than ALL OTHER COUNTRIES COMBINED!!! Why is it that in many general assembly resolutions we are one of 2 or 3 countries who support the Israelis while 95% of the world's population supports the Palestenians. Have you ever done some research and seen the votes?? They are like 191 - 2 etc etc.
Third, when Jews were living under Arab rule in Palestine they were never persecuted, infact, Jews fled to Palestine to escape the Nazis.
Fourth, any country that uses my tax money to bomb innocent civilians using F16 fighters and tanks disgusts me - killing innocent civilians while wearing a soldier's uniform does NOT make you a hero in my book and u are certainly not better than anyone who kills innocents with a bus bomb both are deliberate acts of terror and reprehensible. Check out some amateur video rather than watching CNN and u start to see the other side.
Fifth, Israel and the Palestenians would have peace tomorrow if ISRAEL would go back to the 1967 borders (as mandated by resolutions 242 and 338). Hamas has publicly declared that on more than one occasion and have said that they would back a peace deal negotiated by Abbas - so they are not impeding the peace process. I could go on and on but I will stop but consider this.
So Carter talks to them. Why wont we talk to them when even many Israeli politicians are willing to talk to them?? Why are we more Israeli than they are themselves? Its because the Jews living in the US are far more radical than those living in Israel proper and so we adopt a radical stance. Obama would talk to Iran but NOT Hamas?? Are you kidding me??? Who is a greater threat to our country and our boys over in the Gulf?? Iran or Hamas???? He's so scared of the Jewish lobby (AIPAC) that he would rather talk to Iran who supplies weapons to Shiites to kill our boys than to talk to Hamas who's only objective is to liberate their land?? Who's fucking foreign policy is he following - Israel's or ours???
I for one am sick of carrying out a foreign policy based on whats right for Israel rather than whats right for the US of A!! and I am sick and tired of spending OUR tax money to prop up a despicable state that is starving Gaza to death, is in violation of dozens of UN Resolutions, in violation of the Geneva Convention, breaks international law, uses human shields etc etc.
Two more points - it is a fact that the rockets are coming from Gaza so why does Israel attack and kill Palestenians in the West Bank, build settlements there etc etc. Seems to me that no matter what the Palestenians do whether its try to resolve the conflict through negotiations or by armed liberation, Israel's response is and will continue to be the same - so I say power to the Palestenians. I know no one here would advocate that we would sit idly by if the USSR occupied our country and "negotiate" and behave like good little dogs - so why would we expect others to do it. Iraq didnt even attack us and we have brought hell's fury with us over there - now just imagine if Iraq invaded and occupied us. Nuff said!
meesterperfect
Hiliary 2020
I was thinking the same thing.
dick van cock
Closed Account
:1orglaugh
The UN is an inherently anti-semitic organization
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/unantisem.html
Considering your source is the "Jewish" virtual library - I think your argument would be better made with an objective source. Abram isnt exactly objective in his views. There are as many extremist Jews as there are extremist Arabs. Lets not forget Ariel Sharon is famously quoted as saying to a NY Times reporter when he was Defence Minister (and I am paraphrasing here) "All the Arabs in the world, are not worth the fingernail of one Jew" and George Bush labelled him a peacemaker despite his atrocities in Saabra and Shatilla in which he was found "indirectly responsible" by Israeli courts themselves - not some outside body.
Anyone who criticizes Israel's policies on the Palestenians is called Anti Semite including Jimmy Carter who helped broker a peace between Egypt and Israel..pretty anti semetic guy I would say. There are also those two Jewish harvard professors recently who were labelled as anti semites after criticizing Israeli policy.
Going back to my point about US carrying out Israeli foreign policy rather than U.S foreign policy...
Does anyone know which country John McCain visited after winning the Republican party's nomination??? Canada?? Mexico?? Nope and Nope. He went to Israel. Now I would think that Canada and Mexico would be key considering most of our trade goes to and from those two countries and our economies and intertwined - and given the economic circumstances I would be focussed on developing a strategy with our neighbours as much as possible to make any downturn short and shallow - and if we are ever attacked again, they will probably come via Canada ..ie. Ramzi Yousef caught along the Washington State, BC border. So why the hell did he go to Israel first...oh yeah, AIPAC and the power of the Jewish lobby - thats why. Forget that our economy is going to hell - Canada is our biggest trading partner - they will have a bigger impact on the health and welfare our Americans than Israel ever will. Sickens me.
At the end of the day, Hamas was democratically elected - whether we like it or not and if we REALLY SUPPORT DEMOCRACY then we should respect the will of the people - including the Palestenian people. So...let me get this straight...we WILL TALK to dictators in Saudi and Jordan? but we wont talk to a democratically elected body?? Doesnt really sound like we support democracy does it.
Second, lobbyists from Israel are the only lobbyists in the world who dont have to declare themselves as "foreign lobbyists" - so what they preach is mixed in with US policy. Why dont they have to publicly state that they are working on behalf of the state of Israel? Everyone else has to do it. Thats how things get mixed up - they are viewed as domestic lobbyists -which they are not.
Finally, demographics will solve the occupation issue - in a few years Palestenians will outnumber Israelis and they will demand one vote for one man (you know, a little thing called democracy). Which country head of state will say they support an apartheid where the minority Jews rule the majority Palestenians - not even an American president can market that in their platform haha! No wonder George Bush is in such a rush to get a peace deal - he aint doing it because he has a good heart - he's doing it to preserve Israel's jewish identity before the Palestenians outnumber the jews. I wish Bush concerned himself half as much with homeowners facing foreclosures or New Orleans as he is concerned with Israel keeping its "Jewish" identity - which is in itself a racist policy.
Thanks for letting me make a few points. Check out documentaries such as Death in Gaza which follow a British filim crew where James Millar is gunned down by the IDF deliberatly. Or Occupation 101. Isnt it interesting how Israeli courts deny the use of video tapes in cases where the military is involved in "contraversial" deaths?? Guess they dont want that incriminating evidence that only a video can provide brought against their soldiers.
Thanks for letting me make some points!
dick van cock
Closed Account
You're welcome...Thanks for letting me make some points!
Isn't it curious that there's a vibrant discussion among Israeli columnists (including dissenting viewpoints like bloomington's) --- but where do you find anything resembling pluralism in Arab publications?
The only way o talk with the Hamas is by killing with a sniper rifle all of their chiefs who are full of shit scumbags who are loving Mein Kampf.They are primitive, hateful and dumb pieces of shit.Not even worth a comment. :thumbsdown:
For once, I won't write a lengthy sermon on the Israeli predicament.
Only so much: You cannot talk to Hamas. Their only goal is the destruction of Israel, eventually fulfilling Adolf Eichmann's task.
I'm afraid, if not violence, demographics will sove the matter in favor of the Palestinians.
Shalom!
Fight fire and the scum with the fire. Palestinians has been brainwashed by Arafat and now by the Hamas. How can I trust the Hamas, when everyday I hear of Kassams falling on Israeli houses or killing innocent civilians?.
The best way is to wipe out the entire Palestinian government and all palestinian terrorist organizations as well as their back ups by force if needed. As it is said somewhere if I remember correctly "the one who fights with the sword, will perish by the sword". But it is better to defend your country by all means than being surrendering.
The UN is full of shit, I agree :yesyes:
I agree.
Thanks for letting me make some points!
that was very well put-together.
an utter failure.
so does carter's trip signal a paradigm-shift in the way terrorist groups should be dealt with?
especially in light of the fact that hamas is a democratically-elected body?
or is this an isolated incident; a special case?
Comon guys - Dick well put about Arab views - although I think with Al Jazeera is changing that for sure. Its no hold barred and thats probably the reason why its constantly being expelled from various arab countries. They put everyone's opinon up front for everyone to see. I would further agree that Arab governments ARE corrupt and dont reflect the viewpoints of the masses for the most part. But if they did - you would certainly have an even more extreme government in Saudi Arabia and if the Egyptians were not throwing every Muslim Brotherhood member in jail, they would probably be ruling Eypt right now.
As far as the UN goes - you must remember, in the standoff with Iran I hear all the time, Israeli government officials stating that Iran is thumbing its nose at the international community and that the international community needs to confront Iran etc etc - but when the international community passes resolutions against Israel its suddenly anti semetic and anti Israel? Comon - you cant have it both ways.
Whether you like or dislike Hamas does not justify the cutting off of energy and fuel and electricity, and food and medicine to an entire population is UNJUSTIFIABLE and disgraceful. Jimmy Carter noted in a speech this week that the average Gazan receives less food than that of the poorest African nations. This measure of "mass punishment" is deplorable to say the least. Israel tried the same tactic recently in Lebanon by bombing all parts of Lebanon's infrastructure in an attempt to turn public opinion against Hezbollah and get the Lebanese to reign them in. It didnt work. Starving the population of Gaza in an attempt to turn public opinion against Hamas wont work either. History proves that but they do it because the U.S. gives them the green light. Time is not on the side of Israel or US foreign policy in the Middle East. Movements like Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and similar movements are only growing. Look, we tried to remove the Ba'athists from all aspects of Iraq life and it failed miserably..remember/?? Now we are trying to get them back in the police and army. We cannot remove Hamas from the scene - they are an inherent part of Palestenian life. I think we could take the approach of the IRA and include them and convince them to become more political. Its working albeit slowly and surely in Northern Ireland - so why not Hamas too??As I said...more and more Israelis recognize this because they live in the neighbourhood and are more pragmatic - its jews here who are extreme in not dealing with Hamas and since they have broad power in deciding OUR foreign policy, its the Jews in the US who drive our stance.
Good debate! cheers!
As far as the UN goes - you must remember, in the standoff with Iran I hear all the time, Israeli government officials stating that Iran is thumbing its nose at the international community and that the international community needs to confront Iran etc etc - but when the international community passes resolutions against Israel its suddenly anti semetic and anti Israel? Comon - you cant have it both ways.
Whether you like or dislike Hamas does not justify the cutting off of energy and fuel and electricity, and food and medicine to an entire population is UNJUSTIFIABLE and disgraceful. Jimmy Carter noted in a speech this week that the average Gazan receives less food than that of the poorest African nations. This measure of "mass punishment" is deplorable to say the least. Israel tried the same tactic recently in Lebanon by bombing all parts of Lebanon's infrastructure in an attempt to turn public opinion against Hezbollah and get the Lebanese to reign them in. It didnt work. Starving the population of Gaza in an attempt to turn public opinion against Hamas wont work either. History proves that but they do it because the U.S. gives them the green light. Time is not on the side of Israel or US foreign policy in the Middle East. Movements like Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and similar movements are only growing. Look, we tried to remove the Ba'athists from all aspects of Iraq life and it failed miserably..remember/?? Now we are trying to get them back in the police and army. We cannot remove Hamas from the scene - they are an inherent part of Palestenian life. I think we could take the approach of the IRA and include them and convince them to become more political. Its working albeit slowly and surely in Northern Ireland - so why not Hamas too??As I said...more and more Israelis recognize this because they live in the neighbourhood and are more pragmatic - its jews here who are extreme in not dealing with Hamas and since they have broad power in deciding OUR foreign policy, its the Jews in the US who drive our stance.
Good debate! cheers!
I don't really see that it is a shift.One man's terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.The english thought that americans fought like terrorists,jews used to terrorism to drive out the english from palestine and the IRA used terrorism to advance their agenda.People ended up talking to all of them also.
This label of terrorist group is always subjective on whether you think thier cause is a worthy one or not.
Will E Worm
Conspiracy...
He's just going to talk with them not negotiate with them. Correct?
Great rebuttal by CNN
Lebanon Israel Facts
No, I don't hate Israel. But, just like our's their government needs to answer some questions.
Great rebuttal by CNN
Lebanon Israel Facts
No, I don't hate Israel. But, just like our's their government needs to answer some questions.
Theopolis Q. Hossenffer
I have no opinion
Keeping his name in the news for one.
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