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Jesus christ

xfire

New Twitter/X @cxffreeman
On your first point - I haven't found any that relate to any of the points made in the image.

On the third point - I am not jumping on you. It just seems to me that the image that you posted contained a whole load of rubbish. If you can point me in the direction of information that backs up any of the points, then I would stand corrected, but on the face of it, you have posted what appears to be anti-Christian propaganda with no basis in fact..

There's a plethora of information, depending on your search parameters, to back up what I've posted, or to back up a complete rebuttal thereof. I posted the image based upon my own experience in college from both psychology and philosophy professors that lectured on the topic of religion.

Finally, I feel she may have been a little coarse, not not really aggressive. However all this is typed and not spoken, so putting across and interpreting emotions is difficult and can often lead to incorrect conclusions. As far as this final part is concerned, she has apologised for the way that she came across, so I think we can just forget it.

You brought it back up after I had dropped it.
 

larss

I'm watching some specialist videos
There's a plethora of information, depending on your search parameters, to back up what I've posted, or to back up a complete rebuttal thereof. I posted the image based upon my own experience in college from both psychology and philosophy professors that lectured on the topic of religion.

I have been doing quite a lot of digging about this and think that this article probably sums it up best http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3054/was-jesus-copied-from-the-egyptian-god-horus
It appears to be a mix of stories and some fabrication from some earlier "scholars".
The information that "backs up" the Horus/Jesus parallells do not actually seem to go into any detail. e.g. Both born of a virgin. None of the stories that I can find on Horus back that up. The most prevalent story is that Osiris (his father) was brought back to life by his mother so that she could get pregnant by him, after he had been killed, dismembered and spread about by Set. No story seems to suggest a virgin birth.
I can find nothing about him walking on water. The closest is a boat race between him and Set where the boats were to be made of stone.
If there is such a plethora of information that backs up what you posted, I'm sure that you would be willing to post just one article that has valid references, given that we can discard the works of Tom Harpur and Gerald Massey as valid references.
 

xfire

New Twitter/X @cxffreeman
I'm sure that you would be willing to post just one article that has valid references, given that we can discard the works of Tom Harpur and Gerald Massey as valid references.

As I said, I posted that image based on my own experience in the classroom. There's no way for me to post the lectures I sat through. I didn't post the image with an eye to providing documentation for it, and considering the genesis of this thread, do you really blame me?
 
So now we have THREE groups. Any advance on three?



Have you ever heard of the crusades?
What about the Spanish inquisition?
Even now, people who call themselves "True Christians" lie, cheat, steal.
Priests have molested children.
This makes a mockery of your post.


-I think that it is better to say three groups because Christianity is not only religion.

And these other religions can be quite different from each other.


-In my view those who make those kinds of actions are not Christians.

They are probably satan worshipers.
 

larss

I'm watching some specialist videos
As I said, I posted that image based on my own experience in the classroom. There's no way for me to post the lectures I sat through. I didn't post the image with an eye to providing documentation for it, and considering the genesis of this thread, do you really blame me?

I just found the subject interesting and was looking into the beginnings of the comparisons made between these earlier gods and Jesus. I was hoping that you might have something a little more solid as I could not find anything that had not been discredited, that was all. If I find anything more substantial, I'll let you know.
 

larss

I'm watching some specialist videos
-I think that it is better to say three groups because Christianity is not only religion.

And these other religions can be quite different from each other.


-In my view those who make those kinds of actions are not Christians.

They are probably satan worshipers.

They were certainly not Satanists, and I am sure that the Inquisitors would have vehemently disagreed with you in such a way that you would have ended up swearing that you were a Satanist just before having whatever was left of your body burnt at the stake. These people were Christians in the eyes of the church at the time and attempted to force their views onto the rest of the population.
 

xfire

New Twitter/X @cxffreeman
I just found the subject interesting and was looking into the beginnings of the comparisons made between these earlier gods and Jesus. I was hoping that you might have something a little more solid as I could not find anything that had not been discredited, that was all. If I find anything more substantial, I'll let you know.

It is a fascinating topic and there's a ton of information to busy yourself with for years. I don't by any means suggest this as a definitive source, but here's a good look at the Christ Myth- http://www.pocm.info/
 
They were certainly not Satanists, and I am sure that the Inquisitors would have vehemently disagreed with you in such a way that you would have ended up swearing that you were a Satanist just before having whatever was left of your body burnt at the stake. These people were Christians in the eyes of the church at the time and attempted to force their views onto the rest of the population.

This is a matter of opinion.

I think that the people who make the murders can not be a Christian.


"You shall not murder"

(Ten Commandments)
 

L3ggy

Special Operations FOX-HOUND
I believe it is 'Thou Shall Not Kill'
 

larss

I'm watching some specialist videos
I believe it is 'Thou Shall Not Kill'

Depends on the translation, but I believe that it is generally accepted as "You shall not murder" rather than "Kill", especially as God tells his people to kill repeatedly in the Old Testament.
 
I'm not saying that all barbarians are materialistic or bad, but they are secular people and they lack certain values.

Redefinist fallacy. And I'm not going go back through every one of your posts to find the references, but I'm pretty sure you've said some awful things about "Barbarians"...when it suits you, that is. You keep changing the meaning of everything, so it's really not possible to know what you think. In fact, there's really no evidence you believe anything at all. If you did, it might ruin your troll-mongering persona.

For the last time: THERE IS NO SUCH GROUP OF PEOPLE CALLED 'BARBARIANS'. The term is equivalent to a racial epithet or ethnic slur, e.g., 'Spics', 'Mic's' and 'Dago's'. The word literally has no meaning other than to single out a group of people with nothing universally in common, and insult them for some imagined trait they share, or for their innocent associations.
 
the mocking of Muslims, Jews, Christians, Mormons (who are NOT Christians BTW) and many other faiths is only to help people who don't believe there is a God feel superior.

Mandy,

I think what you find upsetting is iconoclasm, the attempt to destroy religious symbols and render the core beliefs of others meaningless.

I agree this is a malicious practice, and I wholeheartedly oppose it. But you seem to be misinterpreting some of the things being said here, and taking them rather personally without just cause. Christian theology is in fact a composite of many, many other faiths and traditions. You seem to accept the historical basis for some of these commonalities, while you question others. But on the whole, it is an accurate assessment. And even if it none of it were true, simply making the claims would not be an attempt to offend you personally.

To be blunt, by insinuating or ascribing motives to people who argue against belief in God, you commit the very same error you object to. You can't know other people's motives, and you definitely shouldn't be grouping "people who don't believe in God" together or generalizing about them this way.

I assure you, my atheism in no way reflects a need to demonize you for believing what you believe. It's simply what I believe, and I have a lot of good reasons for believing it. I would appreciate it if you did not demonize me and other people who share the same convictions for holding this belief and arguing on behalf of it, especially against such wantonly ignorant and perpetually stupid trolls like Assari.
 
I'll just start with Horus

Look it up if you have the time.
1. He was NOT born of a virgin. This is made VERY clear that his mother made certain she was pregnant before she left her husband Osiris, using a gold phallus with his dismembered body to accomplish this.

The point is, Osiris was dead when Isis conceived Horus. Osiris's phallus was separated from the rest of his body to and thrown into the river to prevent him from continuing his line, so Isis gathered all the other parts of his body together in order to create a "golden" phallus, and it was through this "union' that Horus was conceived. It was not through having intercourse with her husband, but with his reimbodied (but still quite dead) "spirit," which is close enough to virgin conception for the comparison to hold, especially considering how many other variations there are on "virgin conception" in other myths. Funny how the myth makes a man's penis the most important part of his essence. In poetry, this is called synecdoche.


2. There is no mention of a star in the east. In fact Horus was considered to be the entire sky, containing the moon AND the sun...but no mention of a star.

That's right, Horus was the whole sky, but he was mostly identified and symbolized as the Sun, which rises in the east and is renewed each year on the Solstice (i.e., December 21st, when the days start getting longer).


3. He did not walk on water. He was all powerful apparently, but there is no mention of him walking on water.

He may not have walked on water, but several times he did emerge from contests in and on the water. For example, when he races his brother Set, and his boat floats while Set's sinks. And when he and Set submerge themselves in water to see who can last the longest and Horus holds out longer. In these cases, Horus does not succumb to the water, but "walks" away victorious.


4. Wrong.
5. Wrong.
6. Wrong.
7. Wrong.
8. Wrong. Horus' FATHER was semi-ressurected though, kind of, his dismembered body was somehow used to impregnate Horus' mother....who again, was not a virgin.

Feel free to verify the rest of the false information on this lovely, well done but half heartedly thought out bullshit from "Truth"

Look, these are myths. Direct, literal comparisons between any of these traditions and their major figures will be scarce, and largely open to interpretation when they do occur. But what you will find are commonalities. The essence of Horus also changes significantly over the centuries, and many of the things attributed to Horus that resemble characteristics of Jesus were actually attributed to the Pharaoh's, who were thought to be reincarnations of Horus (hence, he rises from the dead).

The Sun is the most revered object in human history. It brings sight to the blind (chases away the darkness of night), makes crops grow (cures the sick), etc.

But despite all these vague and largely symbolic similarities, there is a common theme, which is that a divine being is born of a "father" figure under peculiar ("virgin") circumstances, lives among us on Earth, is all-powerful, suffers, is reborn, etc.

There have been many Christ-like figures in human history, so the question is, why believe in this one?


people who don't want to believe there is any God, no matter who that may be to anyone else, will lie and do their best to make believers feel inferior, stupid, childish.

This is just plain ignorant, and nothing more than character assassination. You're just lashing out here, to say nothing of generalizing. I addressed this in my previous post.


when Jesus was here...he didn't spend time condemning homos, prostitutes, people who didn't believe in him, and people of other faiths...

Most of the really bigoted, intolerant rhetoric by self-professed "Christians" is justified by references to the Old Testament and to Paul's Epistles. Jesus himself may not have condemned people for their lifestyles, but many Christians do "in his name."

This isn't a criticism of all Christians, but it does expose a tendency among those who consider themselves "saved" or "the elite" to view others in pretty low regard. It's called sanctimony. A lot more of these people have committed unspeakable crimes against humanity than atheists.


he condemned the leaders of the church! He even said that there was a 'Special Place in Hell' (I'm paraphrasing here) for them because they had caused so many to turn away from God. Exactly what is happening now.
(emphasis added)

Do you have any idea how long people have been making reactionary statements like this, that "Godlessness is beginning to prevail" and "we're all doomed" and other such crap? Let's just say you're not the first.


I don't pretend to know why things are the way they are. I know that according to all faiths God has allowed those who would make terrible decisions to MAKE those terrible decisions. That we are here to live in a way where we can make our own decisions...knowing just enough to be aware that it is a possibility, but having just enough hidden from us that we can still actually choose and not believe we HAVE to be a certain way.

If you know your child is going to do something wrong, because you know what will happen when he's going to do certain things, you still need to let him do it, because he'll never understand why if he didn't do something you think he would have...does that make sense? We are here for us. We are here to learn who WE are, to see for ourselves. When terrible things happen it is almost 100% from choices that were made somewhere along the way.

I think you're talking about Free Will, but I confess I really don't know how this is relevant to what you were discussing.

And you're wrong, by the way. Not all faiths believe that God has bestowed us with free will.
 

Unbelieveable.

I never said that no one has ever been called Barbarians. Of course they have.

The point is, there is nothing that can reasonably be said to be true of all such people who have been called that. It's term of convenience, one people like you use when you want to single out a group and say something negative about them.

Anyone can be both a Barbarian and not a Barbarian at the same time, on your definition, is what I'm saying. It's a distinction without a difference.
 
Just one other quick note....

The ideas of being born of a virgin, and being Resurrected were actually from the OLD testament, which pre dates ALL of those other fore runners to Jesus. The old testament was telling of who was coming (Jesus) and what would happen, so that the people would be able to recognize who was among them IF they WANTED to know. It is important to recognize that it allows for not wanting to know. To each his own, but don't try to make people look stupid because they believe something :)

Stories or myths concerning a 'Messiah' or 'Redeemer' actually predate the written text of the Old Testament, even in the Hebrew tradition. The text of Genesis may have been written as early as 6000 BCE, and Exodus may have been written approximately 1000-2000 years later. The rest of the Pentateuch would have been written in the centuries that followed, and the remaining books of the OT were written over several thousands of years. The actual text that we recognize as the OT was "finalized" or assembled approximately 1200-1500 years before the beginning of the Common Era (i.e., the events surrounding the birth of Jesus). But the events themselves, the people they describe, may have been many hundreds or thousands of years earlier.

Likewise, many of the other "creation" myths and messianic teachings that bear similarities to the OT were also considerably older than the texts we have, as they were passed on through oral traditions for centuries.

In other words, nobody has a lock on originality here. Many, if not all, of these myths were contemporaneous with those of other cultures, making comparisons to the Egyptians, Sumerians and others more than reasonable, if not quite historically accurate.
 
Now you're thinking like Freud, who wrote some simple and elegant theories about how gods fit that 'fatherly figure' niche for adults. I highly recommend reading the essay. I'll see if I can't remember what it's called...

"Civilization and its Discontents"

Also, "Moses and Monotheism", "Totem and Taboo" and many, many others. It was a favorite topic of Freud's.
 
Assari,

I'm going to go against my better judgment and help you out here. Since you won't do it yourself, I'm going to spell out the groups of people you feel everyone in the world should be divided into:

1. Christians - This means anyone who professes to be a Christian, whether they are Catholic, Protestant, etc. However, anyone who in any way questions their faith or who commits crimes, automatically falls into the second group, regardless of how they choose to identify themselves.
2. Atheists - There has been much talk of Barbarians, Satanists and other "uncivilized" folk, but the thing they all have in common (on Assari's view) is that they don't believe in any kind of supreme being, or at least, not what Assari understands to be a God. So Pagans, Mystics, Polytheists, Pantheists, Buddhists, Wiccans and just about everyone else falls into this group.
3. Other religions - This includes monotheistic religions other than Christianity, so Jews and Muslims, mostly. Perhaps also some followers of Zoroastrianism, but I doubt it.

Nearly all the debate in this thread has been about getting Assari to state this grouping succinctly, and since he hasn't done it, I decided to piece it together based on all the miscellaneous things he's said.

Having done that, does anyone think this breakdown makes any sense at all?
 
Nearly all the debate in this thread has been about getting Assari to state this grouping succinctly, and since he hasn't done it, I decided to piece it together based on all the miscellaneous things he's said.

Chill out, boy.

I said that there are three groups; Christians, barbarians and the people who have some other religion than Christianity.

This is my opinion and you or someone else can not change it.

Someone else sees this issue differently and it is ok to me.

I do not deny their views.
 
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