Eh, enough AL talk, how bout the NL award leaders? C.C. is really pushing for MVP, Soto got ROY in his pocket and Cy Young is Lincecum's to lose, as long as he gets help. CC needs to lose a game and the D-Backs have to keep on losing. As for MVP Manny is a huge player in that race if the dodgers (suck) win the weak sauce NL West.
2008 MLB Thread
- Thread starter senob44
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- baseball mlb red sox suck! red sox!
Dude,you are probably the type of person that would argue with someone if they said that the sky was blue.
You just proved to me and probably everyone else on the board that your arguments are asinine,if your only argument is me misspelling someones name.You know,there is a reason that under your avatar there aren't any rep points.
As far as you knowing more about the Sox than I do just because you see a hand full of games on WGN or ESPN,then keep dreaming.Call me when you are a season ticket holder and actually GO to about 25-30 games a year.
Obviously you were just lashing out because your point was invalidated,so the only thing I got left to say is...
WEAKSAUCE!!!
I don't like giving pitchers MVPs but CC(I'll be like farva now and let you know that it's CC now,not C.C.so you obviously don't know what you're talking about either.
)is a legitimate candidate.Soto is a lock even though it kinda pains me to give anyone on the Cubs props.
AMEN TO THAT!!!!!:bowdown:
NL ROY is a lot closer then you realize between Votto and Soto numbers wise.
Soto will win it though because he plays one of the toughest, if not that toughest position at catcher.
As for NL MVP it will probably go to Pujols, CC, Braun, and mabye - a big maybe to Manny.
I think the front runner for the cy young is Lincecum at this point, it has to be. Webb has looked horrible in his last 3 starts 2 of which were very important agaisnt the Dodgers.
Soto will win it though because he plays one of the toughest, if not that toughest position at catcher.
As for NL MVP it will probably go to Pujols, CC, Braun, and mabye - a big maybe to Manny.
I think the front runner for the cy young is Lincecum at this point, it has to be. Webb has looked horrible in his last 3 starts 2 of which were very important agaisnt the Dodgers.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Drawing a walk and putting a man on first and second is actually a bad thing in that situation. Yes, the "winning run" is now on base, but you also set your team up for a double play.
Yeah, sacrifice flies. That's what makes RBI such a useless stat, right? That's your reasoning? Players will record maybe 7 or 8 sac flies in a season. So what makes the league's RBI leaders "lucky" to record the remaining 100+ RBI that they do in the season? It's not luck that drives in runs, it's clutch hitting. Tell me, how would a team win a game if someone didn't drive in a run for them? Are teams going to win on wild pitches or passed balls or runners stealing home all year long? If RBI are useless, then please tell me why. If your only point is that sac flies are "lucky" RBI then you really have no point. Give me something more here, come on. Explain why RBI are useless.
Yeah, I like stats. Stats don't lie. Stats don't have biases. They're just solid, verifiable fact. I agree they don't tell the whole story, but when did I say that Bonds was the greatest player ever? Why did you even make that point? What did it have to do with anything? Obviously Bonds' stats are skewed by his steroid use. He was a better player before he was on the juice anyway, he was a 40-40 guy and a gold glover. As soon as he juiced up his baserunning and fielding skills deteriorated. Plus he wasn't a leader or a winner.
Anyone who thinks RBI are useless and strikeouts are so important is clueless. A-Rod has struck out over 100 times every season of his career with the exception of 1997 when he struck out 99 times. Yet he has a career .306 average and 550 HRs with 1595 RBI as well as three MVP awards. Ryan Howard struck out 181 times in 2006, but still hit .313 with 58 HRs and 149 RBI and won the NL MVP. Besides, baseball experts across the country and the world always cite players' RBI numbers, always. So yeah, I would like Charlie Manuel and Mike Hargrove's numbers. Please send them to me. I'm not saying you weren't scouted by pro teams, a person would have to be pretty pathetic to lie about that on an anonymous message board, although if someone were to lie about that an anonymous message board would be the place to do it. I really don't think someone would do that though. But I doubt you have Manuel's and Hargrove's phone numbers and that they know you very well at all. You're just exagerrating.
Actually, I'm the type of person who argues ONLY when they know what they're talking about. That's why we're arguing, because I know what I'm talking about and you don't.
Yeah, I know why there aren't any rep points, because you went out of your way to make them that way. Who cares anyway? I don't care what you or anyone else on these boards thinks of what I have to say.
I know more about the Sox and baseball than you do because everything you say in all of your messages is bogus and uninformed BS. Yeah, you go to see more White Sox games than I do, hmmmm, maybe that's because you live in Chicago and I live on the other side of the country.
I wasn't lashing out at all. I didn't insult anyone or say anything derogatory. That's what you and your Chicagoan counterpart have been doing, which just goes to show who's points are really being invalidated and who's frustrating whom.
My points weren't invalidated. You made a good point about Ramirez's clutch hitting being better than Longoria's and I gave you credit for that. But you didn't invalidate my point that Longoria has more HRs, RBI, and runs in fewer at-bats for a team with a better record in a tougher division with a weaker lineup.
No doubt a player benefits greatly from having runners on base to drive in, no argument there. But they still have to come up with the hit to knock them in, the player who gets on can't do that for them too.
Normally I wouldn't think a midseason/deadline acquisition should win any awards when they switch leagues, but CC has been so dominant since his arrival in Milwaukee and has meant so much to their success that I would give him the nod over Lincecum right now for the Cy Young. I don't think Manny is deserving of MVP honours, even though he's been so great for the Dodgers, but there really aren't any great candidates. Joe Morgan has been plugging Carlos Delgado, but I don't think a guy hitting in the .260s is deserving, although he does have 65 RBI in his past 65 games. I would have to give Pujols MVP honours by default basically. Batting average leader, 30+ HRs, 100+ RBI, his team has a winning record. That's a stat-based win though, there really isn't anyone besides Delgado who's been exceedingly "valuable" to his team, but again, his average is in the .260s. Other guys in the hunt might be Hanley Ramirez, Ryan Braun, David Wright, Chase Utley, and Ryan Ludwick, none of whom outclass the rest it seems like. Soto has been fantastic, great hitting, handles the Cubs pitching staff very well. I'd give him the ROY nod.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Here's a hypothetical example...
Scenario A) If you hit behind people who never get on base and most of your at-bats are taken with the bases empty, besides hitting a HR, how are you supposed to get RBI's? You can't and it has nothing to do with your performance. You could rack up 200 hits, bat .350, hit 25 HR, 40 doubles and 20 triples, BUT...since there is hardly ever anyone on base when you take your at-bats, you'll only have 40 RBI's.
Scenario B) Now, if you hit behind people who get on base regularly and most of your at-bats are taken with someone on base, a routine single can now produce an RBI. You could only get 130 hits, bat .255, hit 10 HR, 20 doubles and 3 triples, BUT...since the people in front of you are doing their job and getting on base, you could end up with 100 RBI's.
Even though the hitter in Scenario A is putting up a much better performance and having a hell of a season, his number of RBI's are low because the hitters in front of him aren't getting on base. The hitter in Scenario B, however, is made out to look like a fucking all-star, just because he is lucky enough to have teammates that get on base for him.
Point: RBI's are absolutely meaningless. It is a statistic which glorifies hitters who don't deserve it.
People get "credited" with RBI's because they have to. The numbers have to "go somewhere". Just like in football...if a QB throws the ball 3 yards downfield and the WR catches it, breaks a few tackles and heads 87 more yards downfield for a TD...the QB gets credit for a 90 yard TD, when, in all reality, he just threw the ball 3 yards downfield.
I grew up in Cleveland, OH. Mike Hargrove (the Cleveland Indians' manager at the time) has a son named Andy who went to St. Ignatius high school, which is just a few miles from where I grew up. Andy and I developed a friendship over the years, as our teams would play eachother twice a year and I would also see him during summer league tournaments. Eventually, Andy and I ended up playing on the same team together and traveled around the midwest playing in all-star games. We grew closer as friends and spent time with one another's families. He lived out in Richfield, OH and I would go out there every once in a while and hang out with him and his sisters, Pam, Shelly, Melissa and Kim. Andy and I continued to play ball together and spending time with one another's families. He ended up getting drafted by the Mariners and headed on out to play in their farm system. The last time I talked to him, he wasn't doing all that well in the minors, but, hopefully that's changed.
During one of my games (years back, obviously), Andy's father, who just so happens to be Mike Hargrove, decided to show up and watch me play. After the game, he came up to me and said I was one of the best catchers he had ever seen. Shortly thereafter, a man named Joel Skinner started showing up at all of my games. Mike Hargrove had sent Joel Skinner to personally coach me and scout me. Every once in a while, Mike, Joel and myself would get together and go out to dinner, talk baseball, etc.
FYI - Joel Skinner is a former MLB catcher who played for the Indians and is now their 3rd base coach.
Mike Hargrove had a coach on his staff by the name of Charlie Manuel. Charlie is now the head coach of the Phillies. Charlie and I had met a few times when I was younger, but nothing too personal. A few years ago I worked at a recruiting firm in Euclid, OH (close to Cleveland). I had a boss named Mr. Carpenter, who just so happened to be best friends with...you guessed it...Charlie Manuel. I didn't know this at the time, but one day while I was sitting in my office, who walks in? Charlie Manuel! We both knew who one another was and caught up, as it had been a few years. Charlie would stop by once or twice a week when he was in town and Mr. Carpenter, Charlie, a few other people and myself would go to lunch.
Another day at work, I'm sitting in my office and who stops by this time? Charlie Manuel and Jim Thome! Uh oh, a Phillies connection before it even happened? Dun dun dun. Charlie introduced me to Jim (who also stopped by every week or so while he was in town) and we would go to lunch as well.
Why are all of these baseball players gathering in one place you ask? Well, our offices were located right above a baseball school which was owned and operated by Joe Charboneau! Joe Charboneau, ironically, was my personal hitting coach when I was younger! Oh, what a small world. I would go down to his baseball school once or twice a week and help him teach younger kids about proper hitting techniques. When I played for my summer league team (the one that Andy Hargrove was on), Joe Charboneau offered to be our hitting coach and we would spend a lot of time at his school.
So, all of us would hang around, take some swings down at the baseball school and talk baseball.
- Mike Hargrove's real first name is Dudley
- I have the same birthday as Andy Hargrove, Halloween
- Joe Charboneau's daughter, Dannon, used to play in my fast pitch league and she was actually preeeetty good. She also had a crush on me! :lovecoupl
I know this doesn't "prove" anything and that's fine. I just wanted you to know how I know them all.
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ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Tampa Bay Rays record OVERALL: 85 - 57
Winning PCT: 59.8%
Tampa Bay Rays record WITH Longoria in the lineup: 68 - 47
Winning PCT: 59.1%
Tampa Bay Rays record WITHOUT Longoria in the the lineup: 17 - 10
Winning PCT: 62.9%
If you look at the reality of his "contribution" to his team, they are better off without him in the lineup. Their winning percentage is better when he doesn't play. Yeah, he certainly is contributing a lot to their success.
Sounds like a bunch of double talk to me.Talk to me when you actually have an argument that you can back up.
Longoria's numbers that you mentioned are not like they are leaps and bounds above Ramirez's anyway.You keep bringing up that he has played in fewer games but that's a difference of only about 11 or so games,and to add,Longoria actually played in more games from April through July with more at bats in each month,and with the exception of April,where Alexei had 15 fewer at bats,he has had a way better batting average.
Rebuttal? And if you don't have anything new to add then that just further proves that you don't know what you're talking about.
Tampa Bay Rays record OVERALL: 85 - 57
Winning PCT: 59.8%
Tampa Bay Rays record WITH Longoria in the lineup: 68 - 47
Winning PCT: 59.1%
Tampa Bay Rays record WITHOUT Longoria in the the lineup: 17 - 10
Winning PCT: 62.9%
If you look at the reality of his "contribution" to his team, they are better off without him in the lineup. Their winning percentage is better when he doesn't play. Yeah, he certainly is contributing a lot to their success.
Proof is in the numbers,what more can you ask for,especially for someone who seems to be so focused on them.
Laters.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
More bad news for the White Sox...
Paul Konerko hurt his knee tonight during a rundown. It didn't look like a good thing, so, he might be out for a while...again.
Paul Konerko hurt his knee tonight during a rundown. It didn't look like a good thing, so, he might be out for a while...again.
I bet I can get their numbers, too. :boobies:
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Here's the thing. You're clearly and repeatedly stating that RBI are meaningless and useless. That's where I disagree with you. If you were just saying that they're overrated and overhyped then I would agree with you, they are. Not because of sac fly situations though, that's irrelevant, but because of the reasons you stated here. I think runs scored and OBP are almost as important as RBI and the spotlight doesn't get shone on players for leading the league in them. But RBI are still extremely important. You can have runners in scoring position every time you go up to bat, but the hitter at the plate still has to knock the runner in themself. And it's the most important way to help your team as a hitter. Getting on base is great, but it doesn't necessarily lead to a run for your team. RBI numbers can be skewed by having great OBP guys ahead of you in the lineup, but they still show who has delivered in the clutch the best and the most often. Your scenarios would be a more effective argument if they were realistic, hitters don't hit .350 with 25HR and 40RBI and they don't hit .255 with 10HR and 100RBI, although Ryan Howard is showing you can have a poor batting average and still drive in lots of runs and he leads the NL in RBI, but he isn't being plugged by anyone for MVP honours because of his poor batting average, so maybe RBI aren't too overhyped. I mean, he is hitting well in clutch situations, so why shouldn't he be considered(I don't think he should, but I'm just making a point). His RBI total shows that he's delivered in the clutch. When you drive in that many runs you have to. Ultimately the most important thing in my opinion is how you deliver in the clutch, so BA with RISP or BA in close/late situations, those stats are the most telling of a player's value or worth.
That was a cool story about your baseball background in Cleveland by the way. I know this is going to sound like me trying to one up you or something, but a scout for the Indians actually came north of the border to scout me when I was playing baseball in western Canada when I was younger. He didn't seem very interested after watching me play and it ultimately didn't lead to anything, but I just thought I'd mention it since we both were scouted by the same organization.
Tampa Bay Rays record OVERALL: 85 - 57
Winning PCT: 59.8%
Tampa Bay Rays record WITH Longoria in the lineup: 68 - 47
Winning PCT: 59.1%
Tampa Bay Rays record WITHOUT Longoria in the the lineup: 17 - 10
Winning PCT: 62.9%
If you look at the reality of his "contribution" to his team, they are better off without him in the lineup. Their winning percentage is better when he doesn't play. Yeah, he certainly is contributing a lot to their success.
Their record with Longoria is 63-41(.606). And they're 23-16(.590) without him. Where are you getting these stats?
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Most of the Indians scouts aren't interested in many people so I wouldn't take offense. In the Cleveland area (when I was younger) we had a good 4 or 5 really good prospects for the pros, (all of which ended up getting drafted, one of which actually played in the majors) and none of them were even given a chance by Indian's scouts...and they were only a few miles away! I just got lucky by knowing the Hargrove family, so it worked out in a way.
I also had scouts from the Marlins and Reds, but that's besides the point.
As of two days ago, according to the Tampa Bay Rays website, their record was 85 - 57. Also, as of two days ago, the Rays record was 17 - 10 since August 7th, which is when Longoria got hurt. I just did the math.
85 wins (total) - 17 wins (without Longoria) = 68 wins (with Longoria)
57 loses (total) - 10 loses (without Longoria) = 47 loses (with Longoria)
If he missed a game "here and there", I wouldn't know about it. I don't watch every single Rays game. I don't have the MLB package, so I'm stuck with whatever gets shown on cable.
With that being said, even if the record you provided is correct one to go by, they still have a better winning percentage without him in the lineup.
FYI - The prospect from the Cleveland area who actually made it to the pros was Clint Nageotte. He only pitched in a few games for the Mariners (and got rocked) but it was cool to see him get there, especially knowing that I hit him well in high school. :banger:
