It prevents, or at least trys to prevent, employees being fucked over by employers. So it is a good thing.
Who Do You Blame For Job Losses?
- Thread starter HeyFellas
- Start date
om3ga
It's good to be the king...
To quote from MJ:
"I'm looking at the man in the mirror"
When our banks were fuelling growth on massive lending in the good times, and allowing people to borrow beyond their means; when financial institutions were securitizing sub-prime mortgages, we didn't complain - our governments and our financial watchdogs (SEC for the US; FSA in the UK) didn't see any evil - we were all too busy shouting "SHOW ME THE MONEY!"
Well, payback's here and she's the bitch from hell....
"I'm looking at the man in the mirror"
When our banks were fuelling growth on massive lending in the good times, and allowing people to borrow beyond their means; when financial institutions were securitizing sub-prime mortgages, we didn't complain - our governments and our financial watchdogs (SEC for the US; FSA in the UK) didn't see any evil - we were all too busy shouting "SHOW ME THE MONEY!"
Well, payback's here and she's the bitch from hell....
Disagree. If someone feels their employer isn't paying them fairly then they are free to see if they can get more from another employer. Any employee is only worth what an employer is willing to pay him.
I think we should get rid of the minimum wage,...and while were at it we can also have people go back and work in late 19th century coal mining conditions and other such things where they were virtual slaves. That would really cut down on outsourcing, and make more jobs. Of course people might only make 25 cents and hour and still starve but what the hell. It's not like human dignity and things like ethicalness or morality should have anything to do with how a person is treated or paid after all. This is business and money we're talking about. How dare people bring in concepts like that. If we can somehow get people into perpetual debt to a corporation from them charging ridiculous prices at some sort of company town where they store all their employees then all the better. Don't you dare screw with those businesses' profit margins for the betterment of society and the world you socialist/communist hippies.
Why were at it why don't we get rid of those child labor laws so all those people's kids can join in to. It will be fun for the entire family. All those pollution standards that get in the way of profit should be cut out also. Who cares if it effects future generations and the people unable to get away from it. For that matter lets just say screw it to global warming while were at it. The rich and businesses short term profits shouldn't suffer just because a small thing like having a planet that isn't habitable to humans and damaging climate conditions will occur at the rate we are going.
If all those poor people don't like this stuff well then screw them. We all know everybody that's poor is that way because of their own fault and/or because God doesn't like them. The next thing you know all those commie hippies are going to try and tell us things like the position and wealth your born into has more influence on how your going to turn out than any other factor. Besides the rich deserve every last cent they have no matter what they had to do or who they had to exploit to get it. Face it they all must have just worked harder than you, and you're only worth what they say you are. Don't you dare take all that wealth that they couldn’t spend in there entire lifetime if they wanted to away from them.
Why were at it why don't we get rid of those child labor laws so all those people's kids can join in to. It will be fun for the entire family. All those pollution standards that get in the way of profit should be cut out also. Who cares if it effects future generations and the people unable to get away from it. For that matter lets just say screw it to global warming while were at it. The rich and businesses short term profits shouldn't suffer just because a small thing like having a planet that isn't habitable to humans and damaging climate conditions will occur at the rate we are going.
If all those poor people don't like this stuff well then screw them. We all know everybody that's poor is that way because of their own fault and/or because God doesn't like them. The next thing you know all those commie hippies are going to try and tell us things like the position and wealth your born into has more influence on how your going to turn out than any other factor. Besides the rich deserve every last cent they have no matter what they had to do or who they had to exploit to get it. Face it they all must have just worked harder than you, and you're only worth what they say you are. Don't you dare take all that wealth that they couldn’t spend in there entire lifetime if they wanted to away from them.
There are a million different loopholes that a company can use in order to pay their employees less than minimum wage. The biggest loophole is called "salary". The second biggest loophole is called "commission".
Minimum wage IS helpful, but it actually hurts employers more than you would think.
Imagine a local Mom & Pop type store that needed to hire a part-time night employee to help at their store. That Mom & Pop store might not be a booming business, but if they want to hire any help, they would be forced to pay that person minimum wage, even if Mom & Pop themselves (the owners) don't even make that much themselves.
I blame the jobs... if they didn't get lost people would still have them. Leash laws people. Leash laws.
and I blame the country for buying every piece of crap that comes out of China, Japan, Mexico, Bangladesh, Korean, Indonesia, India, and anywhere else that doesn't cripple out home industry.
I blame the government for regulating everything, illegalizing everything enjoyable, taxing everything ownable, supporting everyone who's unmotivatable...
I blame politicians for their lack of integrity, thirst for power, feeling of superiority over everyone that votes them in, and complete inability to do the job they got voted to do
I blame Freeones for crippling the porn industry forcing it to ask for a bailout.
and I blame the country for buying every piece of crap that comes out of China, Japan, Mexico, Bangladesh, Korean, Indonesia, India, and anywhere else that doesn't cripple out home industry.
I blame the government for regulating everything, illegalizing everything enjoyable, taxing everything ownable, supporting everyone who's unmotivatable...
I blame politicians for their lack of integrity, thirst for power, feeling of superiority over everyone that votes them in, and complete inability to do the job they got voted to do
I blame Freeones for crippling the porn industry forcing it to ask for a bailout.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
First of all, you are comparing two totally different fields of work. Second of all, if you are a landscaper with a degree in botany and have 5 years of experience and you still can't get a job that pays you more than $7/HR, you should prooooobably consider a career change.
We can blame anybody we want to for our job losses, but it ultimately comes right back to us.
You can't have it both ways.
The problem with the economy is the lack of regulation by government-banks etc were able to lend money they didn't have to people who couldn't repay.This could have been prevented.
Neither has the government regulated where your goods are sourced , if they can be made cheaper elsewhere that's what people will buy. It's called market forces. At one time the US was able to churn out masses of goods cheaper then its competitors and Americans thought it was a great system.
Remember: Don't forget the option to be your own boss!
Remember: Don't forget the option to be your own boss!
Seriously now, landscaping is one of the easier businesses to start because you can run it entirely out of your own, without having to have front. You also deal on smaller, less major and quick contracts that can add up to big money very, very quickly -- residential and small to medium commercial contracts.
At least that's been the case with two (2) of my own colleagues. They were both in traditional business fields and left to start their own landscaping businesses. Both of them now have a dozen people. Sure, business has slowed down, and they've had to cut people, but they are still doing very, very well. The profit margins are excellent.
You only need the initiative and the willingness to work hard for your business. Some people think it's easy. It's easy if you make it easy and enjoy it, regardless of the hours it takes.
Or go into business for yourself.
Remember: Don't forget the option to be your own boss!
Seriously now, landscaping is one of the easier businesses to start because you can run it entirely out of your own, without having to have front. You also deal on smaller, less major and quick contracts that can add up to big money very, very quickly -- residential and small to medium commercial contracts.
At least that's been the case with two (2) of my own colleagues. They were both in traditional business fields and left to start their own landscaping businesses. Both of them now have a dozen people. Sure, business has slowed down, and they've had to cut people, but they are still doing very, very well. The profit margins are excellent.
You only need the initiative and the willingness to work hard for your business. Some people think it's easy. It's easy if you make it easy and enjoy it, regardless of the hours it takes.
Sadly true. Way overpaid American workers doing way less work for way inefficient American cars.
Foreign cars are better made, cheaper made... let the justification for it fall where it may. I say embrace some reality while we're all suffering. A car needs to actually serve some purpose, be cheap and yet still be reliable.
If someone wanted to get me started on efficiency, reliability and cheapness.. g'head and ask any given government in the world why they choose anything besides an AK47 variant. The gun works 24/7 in any environment without problem at the cheap manufacture price. Anyway...
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
There are a lot of other professions in America that are way overpaid too. My friend is a nurse and he makes $20/hr. His job consists of taking blood pressure, taking temperature, changing gauze when needed, etc. Those aren't my words, those are his.
Does that really deserve $20/hr? And, if he works on a holiday, he gets paid time and a half, so he makes $30/hr. REALLY?!?!?!
That's why I prefer the independent communist type system. If it can't be made here, fine, import it, but if we can make it ourselves, tax the foreign stuff so much that ours is cheaper. It seems to work fine in Switzerland. You still get the choice of "better" foreign made products, but the bulk is home grown.
By the way, a friend of mine tried to start his own landscaping business, and went bankrupt inside a few months. However, he wasn't the smartest businessman around. Never mind failing school exams, he didn't even bother to take them.
Chef, welcome back, where you been bud? Is $20 a typical wage for U.S nurses? Seems a lot compared to British ones, who probably earn less than $10. :wave2:
Huh? It's about what people are willing to pay for ... what about $100+/hour?
First off, $20/hr is roughly $40K/year, $30/hr is roughly $60K/year. Just in case anyone didn't know. I made between $35-45K/year early in my traditional engineering career. Even out at NASA as well, even with 5 years experience (over 10 years education+experience in a traditional profession that requires it, keep that in mind), I was at a salary grade under $50K/year. Most people would consider that low, but I considered myself a public servant on the tax payer dollar, so I looked at it as delivering tax payer value.
Secondly, he is a nurse. I assume a LPN or RN. Not a medical technician, but a LPN or RN. That is a licensed profession that carries an ethical and social fabric weight second only to a MD in his field. It's what people are willing to pay for, and when it comes to a LPN or RN, they are worth it. When I give blood, because more than one technician has nearly caused a serious clot on me, I refuse to give blood to anyone less than a LPN or RN, period.
Third, you shouldn't be complaining about the LPN or RN or even MDs for that matter. They have a minimum of 5-10 years of board certified education and experience. You should be complaining about all those "office workers" and under-qualified "technicians" that are required for all the paperwork, causing trouble for the LPNs, RNs, MDs, etc... and the system in general. Those are getting out of hand, and we're only regulating in more.
Trust me, $40-60K/year for a LPN or RN, especially a very, very experienced one, is well worth the buck. Now if he's not a LPN or RN, that's a different story. Sure, it may be that he only does what you say on a regular basis, because he works in a general practicioner's office or something similar. But he's the type that prevents other issues from happening, let alone has probably had a few cases where it was like being in the ER because of a chance reaction or patient.
Besides, if you're questioning those "hourly rates", you don't wanna know what mine is. Let alone you don't wanna know what companies that offer professionals like myself bill at. They are typically 50-100% more than myself, and they expect the client to pay expenses -- whereas I do "all inclusive" (one hourly rate, I cover my own expenses). Under $100/hour is never heard of.
Every now and then a client will ask "why do you charge so much?" Some will even ask, "I can hire any IT person from even a temp agency for 1/2-1/3rd that price, or hire someone for 1/4th-1/5th." These same companies are typically clusterfucks internally, and hire clusterfucks from IT staffing firms that spend most of their time just making sure what they pluck is presentable than qualified.
Understand I only get paid when I bill. And sometimes I'll eat thousands of dollars to fly and stay somewhere and not even get paid, because it's a freebie type engagement to "prove my worth." I don't spend all my time billable (although I had some good years where I was averaging over 50 hours/week billable, paid by the hour ). In any case, it's always very simple to respond. I respond with a question.
"How long and how many people have you thrown at this before I came on-site?"
I typically go out on 1 week assignments. I do have some 13 week / 3 month assignments (and get extensions). My career has been built on "Call (my name)" when things go bad, get behind, etc... Nearly all has been 1st hand reference. I'm typically done in 2 days in the case of the week, spending the next 3 days on knowledge transfer. Same deal on the 3 month (or even 6 month) gigs, done in 6 weeks.
I recently went on a project that was allegedly a 6 week project that went bad. I tried to help a "colleague" remotely for a full week, although that "colleague" was clearly not helpful (long story, far too often I try to help people remotely only to regret it, because then I get blamed for things he's not understanding remotely, and it's 100x easier to do in-person). I finally just "ate the trip costs" and got up there. In less than a day I had it figured out. In another day, it was not only stable, but 10x the performance. Not only that, but get this, they had been working on it for 3 months! They had brought in 3 contractors, who kept fucking it up.
Sure, a couple of days would have cost them a thousand or two with me (I usually require a minimum of 40 hours to travel at my own expense, so I would have probably requested expenses if this was billable). But they had already spend tens upon tens of thousands of direct costs, let alone had likely 6 figures in indirect costs as part of their organization (and major section that directly affected their clients negatively) was completely impotent for 3 months.
To get work, I have to save company's money. I might bill 3 figures/hour, but companies like to have someone like me for a week, or even a few months, instead of dealing with a year or two of employees not getting the job done, etc... I'm not just another "IT contractor" farmed out by the countless number of firms doing that nowdays. I'm consider a major, leading expert in setup, integration, etc... of custom applications as well as enterprise deployment, configuration management, etc... on massive scales as well. What takes typical IT people awhile to figure out, I've already done. And I can teach others.
In fact, and this is my hallmark, almost every time I train the client and leave them with so much documentation that they never call me again for that system. A lot of IT people, and I mean a lot of IT -- especially the absolute bullshit attitude that Microsoft itself and its Gold Partners eat up (although many Gold Partners question it at times when they lose contracts because of it) -- build this "oh, I'm irreplaceable" attitude. Bullshit. If you are not sharing your knowledge and transferring that other people, documenting things so if you are hit by a bus tomorrow, they are fine, then your employer has an issue.
And it's not the complexity of the system, that's a poor argument. Trust me, I've worked on the largest networks, worked at the largest data centers, dealt with the large data rates and been at some of the most secured installations in the US. There's no excuse not to make yourself replaceable.
But since most people don't have that attitude in the IT world, there are people like myself. People companies call and often hear of by reference or when they ask around. And when it reaches the point where they are willing to pay $100+/hour to get guaranteed results under a contractual obligation instead of "if you don't know what you're doing" or "you decide to pick your nose" that "we still have to pay," they call us. How can you judge that in comparison?
-- ProfV
P.S. I haven't even covered the multi-million dollar liability insurance costs that not only people like myself have to carry, but even nurses have to carry at over an order of magnitude higher of a cost than I have to pay for.
P.P.S. This has not been a good year so far. If you consider me "employed," I'm sure for all the hours I've worked on-site at clients, divided by the total money I've actually made, I've made maybe $20/hour (maybe closer to $15/hour). That's because I'm doing a lot of "freebies" right now, trying to get work. The quickest way for a company not to get my help is for them to have the balls to call me after I've already been on-site for free, at my own expense, and request I help them remotely. At that point, "they've seen the goods and worth, it's time to step and choose where your money goes." I actually have paying worth over the coming month (possibly two), and stuff likely lined up after that, but these first two months have been poor.
P.P.P.S. If you haven't guessed, there is a rate where it is cheaper not to work than work. It's not worth my bother for peanuts and I'll gladly stay home. Even better yet, I don't pay income tax when I don't work. The downsize is that my not working hurts the economy. But people don't think of that. Especially with the "penalties" that are coming into effect this and next year, not worth me to work for several months of the year.
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!
First off, $20/hr is roughly $40K/year, $30/hr is roughly $60K/year. Just in case anyone didn't know. I made between $35-45K/year early in my traditional engineering career. Even out at NASA as well, even with 5 years experience (over 10 years education+experience in a traditional profession that requires it, keep that in mind), I was at a salary grade under $50K/year. Most people would consider that low, but I considered myself a public servant on the tax payer dollar, so I looked at it as delivering tax payer value.
Secondly, he is a nurse. I assume a LPN or RN. Not a medical technician, but a LPN or RN. That is a licensed profession that carries an ethical and social fabric weight second only to a MD in his field. It's what people are willing to pay for, and when it comes to a LPN or RN, they are worth it. When I give blood, because more than one technician has nearly caused a serious clot on me, I refuse to give blood to anyone less than a LPN or RN, period.
Third, you shouldn't be complaining about the LPN or RN or even MDs for that matter. They have a minimum of 5-10 years of board certified education and experience. You should be complaining about all those "office workers" and under-qualified "technicians" that are required for all the paperwork, causing trouble for the LPNs, RNs, MDs, etc... and the system in general. Those are getting out of hand, and we're only regulating in more.
Trust me, $40-60K/year for a LPN or RN, especially a very, very experienced one, is well worth the buck. Now if he's not a LPN or RN, that's a different story. Sure, it may be that he only does what you say on a regular basis, because he works in a general practicioner's office or something similar. But he's the type that prevents other issues from happening, let alone has probably had a few cases where it was like being in the ER because of a chance reaction or patient.
Besides, if you're questioning those "hourly rates", you don't wanna know what mine is. Let alone you don't wanna know what companies that offer professionals like myself bill at. They are typically 50-100% more than myself, and they expect the client to pay expenses -- whereas I do "all inclusive" (one hourly rate, I cover my own expenses). Under $100/hour is never heard of.
Every now and then a client will ask "why do you charge so much?" Some will even ask, "I can hire any IT person from even a temp agency for 1/2-1/3rd that price, or hire someone for 1/4th-1/5th." These same companies are typically clusterfucks internally, and hire clusterfucks from IT staffing firms that spend most of their time just making sure what they pluck is presentable than qualified.
Understand I only get paid when I bill. And sometimes I'll eat thousands of dollars to fly and stay somewhere and not even get paid, because it's a freebie type engagement to "prove my worth." I don't spend all my time billable (although I had some good years where I was averaging over 50 hours/week billable, paid by the hour
). In any case, it's always very simple to respond. I respond with a question."How long and how many people have you thrown at this before I came on-site?"
I typically go out on 1 week assignments. I do have some 13 week / 3 month assignments (and get extensions). My career has been built on "Call (my name)" when things go bad, get behind, etc... Nearly all has been 1st hand reference. I'm typically done in 2 days in the case of the week, spending the next 3 days on knowledge transfer. Same deal on the 3 month (or even 6 month) gigs, done in 6 weeks.
I recently went on a project that was allegedly a 6 week project that went bad. I tried to help a "colleague" remotely for a full week, although that "colleague" was clearly not helpful (long story, far too often I try to help people remotely only to regret it, because then I get blamed for things he's not understanding remotely, and it's 100x easier to do in-person). I finally just "ate the trip costs" and got up there. In less than a day I had it figured out. In another day, it was not only stable, but 10x the performance. Not only that, but get this, they had been working on it for 3 months! They had brought in 3 contractors, who kept fucking it up.
Sure, a couple of days would have cost them a thousand or two with me (I usually require a minimum of 40 hours to travel at my own expense, so I would have probably requested expenses if this was billable). But they had already spend tens upon tens of thousands of direct costs, let alone had likely 6 figures in indirect costs as part of their organization (and major section that directly affected their clients negatively) was completely impotent for 3 months.
To get work, I have to save company's money. I might bill 3 figures/hour, but companies like to have someone like me for a week, or even a few months, instead of dealing with a year or two of employees not getting the job done, etc... I'm not just another "IT contractor" farmed out by the countless number of firms doing that nowdays. I'm consider a major, leading expert in setup, integration, etc... of custom applications as well as enterprise deployment, configuration management, etc... on massive scales as well. What takes typical IT people awhile to figure out, I've already done. And I can teach others.
In fact, and this is my hallmark, almost every time I train the client and leave them with so much documentation that they never call me again for that system. A lot of IT people, and I mean a lot of IT -- especially the absolute bullshit attitude that Microsoft itself and its Gold Partners eat up (although many Gold Partners question it at times when they lose contracts because of it) -- build this "oh, I'm irreplaceable" attitude. Bullshit. If you are not sharing your knowledge and transferring that other people, documenting things so if you are hit by a bus tomorrow, they are fine, then your employer has an issue.
And it's not the complexity of the system, that's a poor argument. Trust me, I've worked on the largest networks, worked at the largest data centers, dealt with the large data rates and been at some of the most secured installations in the US. There's no excuse not to make yourself replaceable.
But since most people don't have that attitude in the IT world, there are people like myself. People companies call and often hear of by reference or when they ask around. And when it reaches the point where they are willing to pay $100+/hour to get guaranteed results under a contractual obligation instead of "if you don't know what you're doing" or "you decide to pick your nose" that "we still have to pay," they call us. How can you judge that in comparison?
-- ProfV
P.S. I haven't even covered the multi-million dollar liability insurance costs that not only people like myself have to carry, but even nurses have to carry at over an order of magnitude higher of a cost than I have to pay for.
P.P.S. This has not been a good year so far. If you consider me "employed," I'm sure for all the hours I've worked on-site at clients, divided by the total money I've actually made, I've made maybe $20/hour (maybe closer to $15/hour). That's because I'm doing a lot of "freebies" right now, trying to get work. The quickest way for a company not to get my help is for them to have the balls to call me after I've already been on-site for free, at my own expense, and request I help them remotely. At that point, "they've seen the goods and worth, it's time to step and choose where your money goes." I actually have paying worth over the coming month (possibly two), and stuff likely lined up after that, but these first two months have been poor.
P.P.P.S. If you haven't guessed, there is a rate where it is cheaper not to work than work. It's not worth my bother for peanuts and I'll gladly stay home. Even better yet, I don't pay income tax when I don't work. The downsize is that my not working hurts the economy. But people don't think of that. Especially with the "penalties" that are coming into effect this and next year, not worth me to work for several months of the year.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Re: Huh? It's about what people are willing to pay for ... what about $100+/hour? ;
Are you trying to say that $40K or $60K per year isn't a lot of money? You're not filthy rich by any means, but you're certainly not in the poor house either.
I have respect for people in the medical profession, but even my friend (the nurse himself) admits that he doesn't really do all that much. Sure, some nurses are better than others and some nurses do more than others, but $20/HR is A LOT of money.
And, just to let you know, he's been a nurse for roughly 4 years. He's been at his current job for about 2 and half of those years.
Are you trying to say that $40K or $60K per year isn't a lot of money? You're not filthy rich by any means, but you're certainly not in the poor house either.
I have respect for people in the medical profession, but even my friend (the nurse himself) admits that he doesn't really do all that much. Sure, some nurses are better than others and some nurses do more than others, but $20/HR is A LOT of money.
And, just to let you know, he's been a nurse for roughly 4 years. He's been at his current job for about 2 and half of those years.
Getting back to $20/hour (~$40K/year) ... plus "undersaffed" and "oversought" people
Secondly, it's a typical amount of money for LPN or RN, or any traditional professional (engineering, law or medicine) with a 4-5 year degree and several years experience. Those with graduate work and attaining a higher professional level (like a MD) would be paid more, of course.
So $20/hour should be very expected for LPN or RN.
There are huge differences between technicians that can do basic things and nurses that can do more, yet people think, "oh, they just take blood and blood pressure." Same deal with doctors and pharmacists, ones who think we should medicate ourselves and we only need to see a pharmacist directly. I trust pharmacists to be able to treat many diseases just as good as a full MD, but a pharmacist may not be someone to trust actually diagnosing the disease in the first place, hence why I still want to see a MD.
If it was based on how "hard" it is, as in day-to-day, to do the job, then ditch diggers and people who work 10 hours in the sun -- let alone serving military personnel (although that's an entirely different discussion) -- should make far more than I, your friend, etc...
But it's not. It's why we "stay in school," don't make mistakes in our lives, do the things we don't want to do, do the sing'n dance so we can be so licensed so we can practice in one of the traditional professions (again, engineering, law, medicine). The resulting number of people that are capable of doing such is small, hence why the pay reflects that.
No offense, while I'm the first to say that what I do now (technology) does not require a college degree and defend people who are very successful without such, there are some positions where you have to have the degree, and the formal internship (in the case of engineering, this is post-graduation employment under a licensed engineer for 4-5 years) plus examination and other license review. People that don't go through that cannot do certain jobs for a reason.
A LPN or RN is one of these professions. How you're questioning the "value" of his pay is beyond me.
If I have not stated this clearly enough ...
Two (2) of the highest paying Bachelor-level degrees are engineering and nursing. In the mid '90s, and I'm not talking the .COM boom but well before, an expected, entry level, 0 experience median salary was no less than $35K/year in the southeast SE (the lowest paying region of the country) according to the AMA and NSPE. I know in the northeast US it was more like $50K/year. When I went for my first salary (I had always worked hourly prior), I asked for $46K/year based on the published salary surveys from the ACM, IEEE and NSPE using the fact that I lived in the SE US, my combined 4 years part-time experience (not even including my years prior working under my father, a civil engineer, which probably did the most) as equivalent to 2 years. I got $40K/year, and it was considered "typical."
Even in the first half of the '90s, other than when I held intern-grade positions (which were typically around $10/hour, although I had one at age 18 for $6/hour, long story), I was paid $14-18/hour. Last time I checked, I think Boeing and Lockheed-Martin even offers engineering students intern rates at around $15/hour.
$20/hour for a LPN or RN is hardly "high" for today, and wasn't far from typical even a dozen years ago. I don't see how you're even questioning it. Again, it's not based on what he does, it's based on his background. Because even though his daily routine may seem simple, and any tech could do it, a LPN or RN can do many things the techs cannot, and can make considerations a tech cannot. And above all that, being licensed, he is liable unlike any certified tech could ever be -- meaning he can lose his right to ever practice again and be sued by the state (not just have a civil suit brought against him, but a criminal one for merely doing his job).
It's these type of evaluations that cause professionals to just not care and hang it up. I don't blame doctors and nurses when they do it. Heck, I left engineering. I found being a consultant in technology, although I don't remotely use my degree, was something people were willing to pay a lot more. I do note that my EE background, attention to detail, willingness to learn and share back and -- ultimately -- take responsibility for ensuring something works the first time and documenting it instead of "hacking at it" like most IT people. And I'm sure that's a by-product of my background indirectly.
First off, it's $40K/year at $20/hr. We cannot even consider overtime as a salary. In fact, by the nature of the job being hourly, I shouldn't have even mentioned $60K/year. In fact, he may actually make more than $60K/year if the overtime is extensive.
Secondly, it's a typical amount of money for LPN or RN, or any traditional professional (engineering, law or medicine) with a 4-5 year degree and several years experience. Those with graduate work and attaining a higher professional level (like a MD) would be paid more, of course.
Never said it was. But understand you're referring to the upper-echelon of the professions -- medicine (engineering and law being the other two). These professions are understaffed and oversought because the pool is so small, because of not just the education, but the internship and licensing aspects.
So $20/hour should be very expected for LPN or RN.
And yet, if you took anyone off the street and gave them 6 months of training so they could seemingly do everything your friend can, they are still only a "technician" for a reason. I was not kidding you when I said that when I give blood, I do not let them poke me until I have a LPN or RN. If I tell the far less ... er, how can I put this ... "knowledgeable" technician that my blood clots quickly (a by-product of my partial American Indian ancestory, I heal fast), they don't think it makes a damn bit of difference. The LPN or RN knows what to look for and deal with it.
There are huge differences between technicians that can do basic things and nurses that can do more, yet people think, "oh, they just take blood and blood pressure." Same deal with doctors and pharmacists, ones who think we should medicate ourselves and we only need to see a pharmacist directly. I trust pharmacists to be able to treat many diseases just as good as a full MD, but a pharmacist may not be someone to trust actually diagnosing the disease in the first place, hence why I still want to see a MD.
So? Some doctors do jack shit and others work in an ER, and many in-between.
If it was based on how "hard" it is, as in day-to-day, to do the job, then ditch diggers and people who work 10 hours in the sun -- let alone serving military personnel (although that's an entirely different discussion) -- should make far more than I, your friend, etc...
But it's not. It's why we "stay in school," don't make mistakes in our lives, do the things we don't want to do, do the sing'n dance so we can be so licensed so we can practice in one of the traditional professions (again, engineering, law, medicine). The resulting number of people that are capable of doing such is small, hence why the pay reflects that.
No offense, while I'm the first to say that what I do now (technology) does not require a college degree and defend people who are very successful without such, there are some positions where you have to have the degree, and the formal internship (in the case of engineering, this is post-graduation employment under a licensed engineer for 4-5 years) plus examination and other license review. People that don't go through that cannot do certain jobs for a reason.
A LPN or RN is one of these professions. How you're questioning the "value" of his pay is beyond me.
Not for LPN or RN. It's a typical pay rate for someone licensed, but sub-5 years post-intern experience in a non-critical environment. Those who may work in more of a critical environment may have differing rates, or at least get a lot more overtime. Some will just get a salary because the overtime will be extensive (say $60K/year).
Yes. He has 4 years experience post license, correct? Some might think that's a little low for a LPN or RN, but it's actually a hourly rate, so it's very likely he's pulling in over $50K/year with overtime. Most salaried LPN or RN's with 5+ years will easily make that in a salary. I know very, very experienced LPN or RNs (15+ years) that make $80K/year salary (although most of them work extensive overtime with no additional pay).
If I have not stated this clearly enough ...
Two (2) of the highest paying Bachelor-level degrees are engineering and nursing. In the mid '90s, and I'm not talking the .COM boom but well before, an expected, entry level, 0 experience median salary was no less than $35K/year in the southeast SE (the lowest paying region of the country) according to the AMA and NSPE. I know in the northeast US it was more like $50K/year. When I went for my first salary (I had always worked hourly prior), I asked for $46K/year based on the published salary surveys from the ACM, IEEE and NSPE using the fact that I lived in the SE US, my combined 4 years part-time experience (not even including my years prior working under my father, a civil engineer, which probably did the most) as equivalent to 2 years. I got $40K/year, and it was considered "typical."
Even in the first half of the '90s, other than when I held intern-grade positions (which were typically around $10/hour, although I had one at age 18 for $6/hour, long story), I was paid $14-18/hour. Last time I checked, I think Boeing and Lockheed-Martin even offers engineering students intern rates at around $15/hour.
$20/hour for a LPN or RN is hardly "high" for today, and wasn't far from typical even a dozen years ago. I don't see how you're even questioning it. Again, it's not based on what he does, it's based on his background. Because even though his daily routine may seem simple, and any tech could do it, a LPN or RN can do many things the techs cannot, and can make considerations a tech cannot. And above all that, being licensed, he is liable unlike any certified tech could ever be -- meaning he can lose his right to ever practice again and be sued by the state (not just have a civil suit brought against him, but a criminal one for merely doing his job).
It's these type of evaluations that cause professionals to just not care and hang it up. I don't blame doctors and nurses when they do it. Heck, I left engineering. I found being a consultant in technology, although I don't remotely use my degree, was something people were willing to pay a lot more. I do note that my EE background, attention to detail, willingness to learn and share back and -- ultimately -- take responsibility for ensuring something works the first time and documenting it instead of "hacking at it" like most IT people. And I'm sure that's a by-product of my background indirectly.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Re: Getting back to $20/hour (~$40K/year) ... plus "undersaffed" and "oversought" peo
Ok, let's put it this way...
If a professional baseball player makes $1M/year, that player is considered to be on the low end of the MLB pay scale. Most players earn multiple millions per year. But, even though that player is earning a salary which is on the low end (for their profession) that player is still earning more money than they really deserve.
(Obviously, the definition or qualifications of "deserve" can be interpreted a million different ways)
I don't care if $20/HR is common for nurses to make. It's still a lot of money.
The average chef makes anywhere between $20-25K/year. Not to mention, they put in much longer work weeks than the average Joe, without the ability to earn overtime. If a chef made $20/hr, people would think to themselves, "WOW, that's a lot of money just for cooking food".
So, why can't I think that about nurses? If I made $20/hr, I'd be shitting happiness. Brown, liquidy happiness.
Ok, let's put it this way...
If a professional baseball player makes $1M/year, that player is considered to be on the low end of the MLB pay scale. Most players earn multiple millions per year. But, even though that player is earning a salary which is on the low end (for their profession) that player is still earning more money than they really deserve.
(Obviously, the definition or qualifications of "deserve" can be interpreted a million different ways)
I don't care if $20/HR is common for nurses to make. It's still a lot of money.
The average chef makes anywhere between $20-25K/year. Not to mention, they put in much longer work weeks than the average Joe, without the ability to earn overtime. If a chef made $20/hr, people would think to themselves, "WOW, that's a lot of money just for cooking food".
So, why can't I think that about nurses? If I made $20/hr, I'd be shitting happiness. Brown, liquidy happiness.
I agree with you chef. feeding people is just as valuable as stitching them up.
ah, but you might say, I can feed myself. well you can also administer your own medical care, but you choose to pay someone else to do so. either position is based on the assumption that this person posses an ability that is for whatever reason beyond your own. that's pretty much the whole reason why jobs exist.
one might require more training or one might require more skill... who's to say which is more valuable? the job market is in fact based on the market and it has nothing to do with the value of an employee's ability in relation to their costumer, it has simply to do with how much the customer is willing to spend for the service that they receive ( or rather how much the company can get away with charging before people stop buying and indeed do go home and cook their own food and sew themselves up.)
it's easy to see that you'd rather not risk dying as opposed to getting a bad meal, so medical personal re paid more than food service people. But there's a huge gray area, such as, which is more important the person that folds clothes at the GAP or the person that stocks the cell phones at radio shack? there really isn't much of an objective basis for comparison there.
ah, but you might say, I can feed myself. well you can also administer your own medical care, but you choose to pay someone else to do so. either position is based on the assumption that this person posses an ability that is for whatever reason beyond your own. that's pretty much the whole reason why jobs exist.
one might require more training or one might require more skill... who's to say which is more valuable? the job market is in fact based on the market and it has nothing to do with the value of an employee's ability in relation to their costumer, it has simply to do with how much the customer is willing to spend for the service that they receive ( or rather how much the company can get away with charging before people stop buying and indeed do go home and cook their own food and sew themselves up.)
it's easy to see that you'd rather not risk dying as opposed to getting a bad meal, so medical personal re paid more than food service people. But there's a huge gray area, such as, which is more important the person that folds clothes at the GAP or the person that stocks the cell phones at radio shack? there really isn't much of an objective basis for comparison there.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
I know what you're saying, but that's not the point I was making. It makes sense and I do agree with it, but just so everybody knows, I wasn't trying to act as if I feel as though I deserve to make $20/hr or anything. I cook food for a living and I know my place.
I agree. I'm not saying that nurses or worthless or anything close to that, but most of the time that I've had a nurse interact with me, they don't really do anything. In fact, it's usually the nurses who end up making most of the mistakes.
I had a pretty bad cut on my forearm from broken glass (this was a few years back) and the nurse that "took care" of me didn't do anything. She didn't clean me up or anything. She took my arm, propped it up over a bucket and let me sit there for HOURS. No gauze, no bandages, no nothing.
Obviously, a doctor came in, stitched me up and I was on my way. When I went back to get my stitches removed, a nurse was the one who cut my stitches off. In the process, she re-cut my SKIN and now I have this HUGE scar on my forearm all because of her incompetence.
$20/HR for THAT? Awesome!!!
Once again, I'm not saying that all nurses are worthless. I just don't feel as though somebody should be making $20/HR for taking somebody's temperature.
why does everyone always say that? that was the point I was making. why would I make the same point that you were?
