Views Of Muslims

[Ace Boobtoucher]

I've met some very nice muslim people in my time and find it a shame that the extremists ruin their reputation (the same can be said of radicals of any creed).

I've seen this and other photos espousing the use of violence to further their cause and I hear my hippie sister telling me how tolerant muslims are as a group. Then I think "sure, as long as you agree with them."

On September 12th, 2001 I went to a vigil at Nollen Plaza in Downtown Des Moines where there was a prayer service with spiritual leaders from various religious groups including an imam. He was a very gentle person and called for people to use reason and tolerance when interacting with those of different faiths. So for the most part I think well of the practitioners of Islam.

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[diversify]

my views of muslims are identical to my views of any culture or ethnicity that believes in a god: they are living unexamined lives. I have never met or heard of or read about someone who believed in god that i thought was completely rational.

i don't want to sidetrack this thread into a religion bashing thread so ill leave it at that.

in general, the muslims are just like 95% of humanity in my eyes. aside from religion, any person i encounter i let their actions determine who they are to me.
:2 cents:

 

[Will E Worm]

I have never met or heard of or read about someone who believed in god that i thought was completely rational.

Sure.

If you believe that way you must explian why.

Because you're wrong. :hatsoff:

 

[TwatDetective]

my views of muslims are identical to my views of any culture or ethnicity that believes in a god: they are living unexamined lives. I have never met or heard of or read about someone who believed in god that i thought was completely rational.

i don't want to sidetrack this thread into a religion bashing thread so ill leave it at that.

in general, the muslims are just like 95% of humanity in my eyes. aside from religion, any person i encounter i let their actions determine who they are to me.
:2 cents:

Well put. Anyone who puts reason over superstition is higher mine book.

 

[calpoon]

If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve.

 

[GabberMan]

Good news first:

I've got lots in my extended family and most are either non-observers (they don't practise at all) and some are plainly apostates. They also both live in non-Islamic states and other "Islamic" countries where there are also many non-believers (these go largely unregistered in the Islamic world). Most of them drink and eat sausages. Those in my family who ARE practising believers are moderates and their way of life doesn't really clash with mine at all - bar missing a few drinks at dinner at some peoples' houses. The same ones are pro-monotheists which means that they are pro-God-fearers regardless of denomination or path. None of them are anti-semites.

I've had far worse experiences with many Christians, but they're a minority. All the Jews I know are secular types tolerant of pretty much everything bar Israeli and other expansionisms.

So that's the good news out of the way:

The bad news is that I know a lot of Muslims who are NOT tolerant, not interested in Western values or culture, but who ARE interested in welfare, segregation, and their own rights but NOT their own responsibilities to the wider society. It's a recipe for disaster and I've stopped bowing down to their demands with the help of Condell, Hitchens and many lesser known secularists, but without the help of our government who are so afraid of offending Islam (which, by the way, with very little central doctrine, is a dominion like other religions I could mention) and presumably more intersted in short-term electoral prospects, that they're prepared to bend over backwards whilst letting hard-won rights be pissed into the wind.

So who's the real enemy?

 

[sexyartylust]

Why is it that it is seen as abad thing that muslims try to protect their religion and get offended when people prod and provoke them. I dont mean in a sense of violence, but more like picketing the government for rights.

It is frustrating seeing the jewish community have the word 'anti semite'. not that I would slate another religion, it is seen to be acceptable to treat muslims as second class citizens and deny them rights whilst its totally unacceptable to do something similar to another faith or more particulalry the jewish faith. I dont see a word such as anti-christianity or anti-islam used as many times as the word anti-semite.

also, given the way globalisation is going, is it such a strange thing to see a clash in cultures. thats how life is. Preaching western values amongst any group is undermining the right to freedom and free speech. The truth of the matter is, no one set of cultures are right. we can learn alot from many communities. the minute you start preaching and forcing your way upon a group you get people fighting back against conformity. look at the history of america.

I think its the MOST ignorant thing of any generation / religion to force their values upon another and still preach the 'right to freedom and speech'.

For the people wanting muslims or any other group to conform to 'western' values, you are as much in the wrong as you accuse the religion of being in the wrong. forcing any ideals upon any group will only ever result in resistence.

also, for the chap who stated the two quranic verses of killing the infidel, those verses are taken wholly out of context. This was a war time verse. I dont see any of our western governments stopping to kill the enemy at war.

 

[don_equis]

Why is it that it is seen as abad thing that muslims try to protect their religion and get offended when people prod and provoke them. I dont mean in a sense of violence, but more like picketing the government for rights.

It is frustrating seeing the jewish community have the word 'anti semite'. not that I would slate another religion, it is seen to be acceptable to treat muslims as second class citizens and deny them rights whilst its totally unacceptable to do something similar to another faith or more particulalry the jewish faith. I dont see a word such as anti-christianity or anti-islam used as many times as the word anti-semite.

also, given the way globalisation is going, is it such a strange thing to see a clash in cultures. thats how life is. Preaching western values amongst any group is undermining the right to freedom and free speech. The truth of the matter is, no one set of cultures are right. we can learn alot from many communities. the minute you start preaching and forcing your way upon a group you get people fighting back against conformity. look at the history of america.

I think its the MOST ignorant thing of any generation / religion to force their values upon another and still preach the 'right to freedom and speech'.

For the people wanting muslims or any other group to conform to 'western' values, you are as much in the wrong as you accuse the religion of being in the wrong. forcing any ideals upon any group will only ever result in resistence.

also, for the chap who stated the two quranic verses of killing the infidel, those verses are taken wholly out of context. This was a war time verse. I dont see any of our western governments stopping to kill the enemy at war.

Like I stated before so far I have found the Koran very similar to the New Testament...I still have not made it to those verses...but just to let you know it seems like the ones takign it out of context are those "terrorist"/"jihadist" that are going around cutting people's head on the internet or bombing the hell out of anyone who disagress with them...

By the way have you seen what has happened in Pakistan?? a nuclear power nation?

Founder of Islamic TV station accused of beheading wife
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/16/buffalo.beheading/index.html

Some part of this story....

He launched Bridges TV, billed as the first English-language cable channel targeting Muslims inside the United States, in 2004. At the time, Hassan said he hoped the network would balance negative portrayals of Muslims following the attacks of September 11, 2001.


From Pakistan:

Pakistan unsure over identity of man beheaded in Taliban video
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/02/09/pakistan.engineer/index.html

Pakistani government does deal with Taliban on sharia law
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/02/16/pakistan.taliban.sharia.law/index.html#cnnSTCText

Part of it:

So far, the Pakistani Taliban's interpretation of sharia has included banning girls from school, forcing women inside and outlawing forms of entertainment.

The agreement comes amid negotiations between Pakistani provincial officials and Taliban representatives, led by Sufi Mohammed. The Taliban on Sunday declared a 10-day cease-fire in Swat Valley, which Taliban spokesman Muslim Khan said was a gesture of good will towards the government.

The Taliban's control of Swat is believed to be the deepest advance by militants into Pakistan's settled areas -- meaning areas outside its federally administered tribal region along the border with Afghanistan.

The negotiations in North West Frontier Province are the latest attempt by Pakistan's civilian government -- which took power last year -- to achieve peace through diplomacy in areas where Taliban and al Qaeda leaders are believed to have free rein.

 

[jonnvonn]

all i know is, a lot of these muslim girls are FINE.

 

[Philbert]

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- Pakistani authorities have not confirmed that a kidnapped Polish engineer is the man that was beheaded on a Taliban video, despite assertions from Polish officials that they are certain the man is Piotr Stanczak.

"We want to be absolutely sure," said Abdual Basit, a spokesman for Pakistan's foreign office.

I can imagine..."We must wait until we have obtained the severed head, reanimated it, and asked it if it is indeed Piotr Stanczak.
Then, if this is found to be absolutly sure, we shall ask our Taliban brothers to not videotape future beheadings."
Pakistan's govt is walking on eggshells, with so many Pakis in favor of extremist beliefs, and supporting the Taliban Jihadis. About 5000 Taliban/AlQada control all of the Swat Valley, a not so small lush and fertile area in North West Pakistan, where the Pakistani Army could take them out, but are not sure how it would affect the uneasy balance in the country.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

to my mind the keyword is religion

all wide-spread religions (do not know much about exotic ones) are stupid, misleading, and false by nature.

Islam is just as bad as any other religion, but, in opposite to others, it is much more strict with all its rules and laws. In fact christianity is also full of bullshit, and if christian church has as much influence on society they would also ban a lot of things, implement crazy laws and hypocrite rules.

So the problem is that in muslim countries religion has big importance. They have the real power, that's why life in muslim countries is so awful and crazy with all that burkas, paranjas, and other strict and stupid restrictions and censorship.

But you see: give more rights and power to any dumbass catholic preacher, and he will also be happy to ban everything that is related to erotism and sex, they will censor tv, magazines, music and so on. This is why there is no principal difference between different religions to me: they all want to ban, they all are hypocrite, they all are liars and bullshit-talkers. Islam is just more successfull in doing & imposing that religious bullshit and brainwashing.

As for the people... Well... poor people! Alas. It is brainwashing from the childhood. They are not guilty that they are upbringed in this way. But the result is often very sad: one more generation of brainwashed people who passionately (and agressively) believe in the crap they learn, and try to impose it on everyone else.

Example: in Europe, Canada and in any other countries they always try to bring their understanding of what is bad and what is good, try to make other people accept their values, their scheme of life. All that scandals with hijab-wearing, or wearing knifes (it was in Canada where muslim diaspora fights for their right for young boys to wear a knife - which is a weapon - just cuz it is their tradition, and they used to do it like that in their homeland)

But why they do not let europeans to behave like they want in their homeland? Even when there is a F-1 gran prix in Dubai, pilots have to use substitution of shampagne without alcohol to celebrate victory, cuz alchol is illegal. In some muslim countries even tourists MUST wear some kerchiefs and shoud never show their legs, no mini skirts etc. Why? Why we must accept women in hijab in european cities, if they do not want to accept girls in bikini in their muslim countries? Let it be equal. They say they have a right to wear like they want, they fight for the right to make a photos for the documents with headwear on, but could you imagine some girl in Saudi Arabia who fights for her right for topless suntan? They will kill her, I bet. And that sucks. They do not understand, that the term "offensive" is different for everyone. For me it is offensive to see females covered in black like ninjas, and girls who even swim dressed all over. It is so fucking offensive, that I want to... OK, I want to do the same shit they did when they saw offensive cartoons of Muhammed.

But again, this is just because Islam as a religion has much more influence on life in their countries than christianity or any other religion in any other country. In fact religion is a part of the government in muslim countries, it affects everyone and is very strong.

To be honest, from living and working, and having to kill some of these people....many of the worst Muslims, especially living in the West, aren't terribly conservative.


The really bad ones have no problem going to a club and picking out a vulnerable/self-hating girl and getting her hooked on drugs and pimping her out to his friends/cousins/uncles because she's "uncovered meat" a European/White whore and a kuffar, an infidel. She asked for it.

That's the answer I've gotten straight from the horses mouth. They participate in the most lurid, hedonistic acts that Western civilization is stereotyped for, then go to the mosque and pledge money for "they boys fighting the good fight".

They'll go an start visa forging rings to let banned folks into Western countries, and spend the profits on more coke and more BMW's.


Suddenly they turn into the pious and protective brother when some infidel wants to talk to their little sister. It's a weird convergence of expansionist islamist, gangster and closet racist.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

all i know is, a lot of these muslim girls are FINE.

True. That's why we need to find a peaceful solution with Iran:1orglaugh.

They're the hottest Muslim women imo.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

Why is it that it is seen as abad thing that muslims try to protect their religion and get offended when people prod and provoke them. I dont mean in a sense of violence, but more like picketing the government for rights.

It is frustrating seeing the jewish community have the word 'anti semite'. not that I would slate another religion, it is seen to be acceptable to treat muslims as second class citizens and deny them rights whilst its totally unacceptable to do something similar to another faith or more particulalry the jewish faith. I dont see a word such as anti-christianity or anti-islam used as many times as the word anti-semite.

also, given the way globalisation is going, is it such a strange thing to see a clash in cultures. thats how life is. Preaching western values amongst any group is undermining the right to freedom and free speech. The truth of the matter is, no one set of cultures are right. we can learn alot from many communities. the minute you start preaching and forcing your way upon a group you get people fighting back against conformity. look at the history of america.

I think its the MOST ignorant thing of any generation / religion to force their values upon another and still preach the 'right to freedom and speech'.

For the people wanting muslims or any other group to conform to 'western' values, you are as much in the wrong as you accuse the religion of being in the wrong. forcing any ideals upon any group will only ever result in resistence.

also, for the chap who stated the two quranic verses of killing the infidel, those verses are taken wholly out of context. This was a war time verse. I dont see any of our western governments stopping to kill the enemy at war.

This is only because the Jewish community in the West is very powerful and vigilant in protecting it's interests and security. Unfortunately for them, Confucius 4 generation principle applies to everyone. Meaning that this generation of powerful and talented Jews seems to be coming to an end and that we won't see another generation of Jewish Americans with incredible amounts of influence over the U.S. and Western countries in general.

Take for example President Obama's recent criticism and break with Israel, even as modest as they are, that wouldn't have been possible in the last 30 years. The last two Presidents who attempted it, Carter and Bush Sr. were destroyed in the press for trying to move against Israeli interests.



The other thing is that you don't see Jews moving into Western countries and bombing people. Or Jewish refugees in the UK, Sweden and Norway raping European women at astronomical rates. Same thing has occurred in Australia.


Why is it that America, the leader of this "War on Terror" doesn't have the same problems with it's Muslim population? While Europe does?

Because as diverse as the U.S. is, we demand people assimilate. It's a strong country which wouldn't backdown to expansionistic efforts by non-Western communities.

The Europeans try to be liberal and "multicultural" and bend over backwards for immigrants, and they get attacked, raped and bombed for it.


The lesson to be learned here is that if you are not strong in the face of Islam, many Muslims will take advantage of you. I think if they really put the screws to the Muslims there, they would be forced to conform or get out.


The U.S. did the same thing to different European immigrants when they arrived to the U.S. and today you really can't distinguish between one group or another.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

Why is it that it is seen as abad thing that muslims try to protect their religion and get offended when people prod and provoke them. I dont mean in a sense of violence, but more like picketing the government for rights.

It is frustrating seeing the jewish community have the word 'anti semite'. not that I would slate another religion, it is seen to be acceptable to treat muslims as second class citizens and deny them rights whilst its totally unacceptable to do something similar to another faith or more particulalry the jewish faith. I dont see a word such as anti-christianity or anti-islam used as many times as the word anti-semite.

also, given the way globalisation is going, is it such a strange thing to see a clash in cultures. thats how life is. Preaching western values amongst any group is undermining the right to freedom and free speech. The truth of the matter is, no one set of cultures are right. we can learn alot from many communities. the minute you start preaching and forcing your way upon a group you get people fighting back against conformity. look at the history of america.

I think its the MOST ignorant thing of any generation / religion to force their values upon another and still preach the 'right to freedom and speech'.

For the people wanting muslims or any other group to conform to 'western' values, you are as much in the wrong as you accuse the religion of being in the wrong. forcing any ideals upon any group will only ever result in resistence.

also, for the chap who stated the two quranic verses of killing the infidel, those verses are taken wholly out of context. This was a war time verse. I dont see any of our western governments stopping to kill the enemy at war.

Tolerance is good. But there's another Western saying that trumps others in discussion, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

If you want to live in the West, you have to conform to Western values. There's no other way. If Western people didn't believe in this, then their countries would no longer be Nations, but a collection of zip codes.

 

[Hot Mega]

To be honest, from living and working, and having to kill some of these people....many of the worst Muslims, especially living in the West, aren't terribly conservative.


The really bad ones have no problem going to a club and picking out a vulnerable/self-hating girl and getting her hooked on drugs and pimping her out to his friends/cousins/uncles because she's "uncovered meat" a European/White whore and a kuffar, an infidel. She asked for it.

That's the answer I've gotten straight from the horses mouth. They participate in the most lurid, hedonistic acts that Western civilization is stereotyped for, then go to the mosque and pledge money for "they boys fighting the good fight".

They'll go an start visa forging rings to let banned folks into Western countries, and spend the profits on more coke and more BMW's.


Suddenly they turn into the pious and protective brother when some infidel wants to talk to their little sister. It's a weird convergence of expansionist islamist, gangster and closet racist.

Then you should know there is a difference between this type of extremist and the fundmentalists who inspire and in some cases exploit them.

The first thing that's understood about a violent extremist is that they are lying hypocrites...that's true of all of them not matter the doctrine.

Case in point, professed white supremacist von Brunn rants about his hatred for Blacks, Jews, etc. in one statement then accuses the Jews of pitting the races against each other in another.

Fundamentalists are at the core of any extremist movement period..and it is the weak they use to do their bidding.

 

[Afficial_Nastee]

I don't like their rules about Women, they gotta wear scarves etc and the rules involving women are way too strict . And I've heard in some Muslim countries women aren't even allowed to drive a car and be equal to men, that's fucked up. I also don't get the point why they're not allowed to drink alcohol.

 

[lovecock]

they all tend to smell of shit

 

[Hot Mega]

Tolerance is good. But there's another Western saying that trumps others in discussion, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

If you want to live in the West, you have to conform to Western values. There's no other way. If Western people didn't believe in this, then their countries would no longer be Nations, but a collection of zip codes.

Well, if you expatriate your country of origin that suggests it may have been lacking in something you wanted or needed.

If you come to my country, I don't ask that you do as I do....just obey my laws.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

Why is it that it is seen as abad thing that muslims try to protect their religion and get offended when people prod and provoke them. I dont mean in a sense of violence, but more like picketing the government for rights.

It is frustrating seeing the jewish community have the word 'anti semite'. not that I would slate another religion, it is seen to be acceptable to treat muslims as second class citizens and deny them rights whilst its totally unacceptable to do something similar to another faith or more particulalry the jewish faith. I dont see a word such as anti-christianity or anti-islam used as many times as the word anti-semite.

also, given the way globalisation is going, is it such a strange thing to see a clash in cultures. thats how life is. Preaching western values amongst any group is undermining the right to freedom and free speech. The truth of the matter is, no one set of cultures are right. we can learn alot from many communities. the minute you start preaching and forcing your way upon a group you get people fighting back against conformity. look at the history of america.

I think its the MOST ignorant thing of any generation / religion to force their values upon another and still preach the 'right to freedom and speech'.

For the people wanting muslims or any other group to conform to 'western' values, you are as much in the wrong as you accuse the religion of being in the wrong. forcing any ideals upon any group will only ever result in resistence.

also, for the chap who stated the two quranic verses of killing the infidel, those verses are taken wholly out of context. This was a war time verse. I dont see any of our western governments stopping to kill the enemy at war.

I think if you looked at American history, Native Americans in particular would have a lot to add to this discussion. If you can't or won't protect the interests and ideals of your Nation, someone who does care will make you a minority in your own home.

In the case of America, the nation that emerged from European colonization, no one in particular really owns this land, with the exception of the few Native Americans who can claim pure ancestry (DNA tests show that most Native Americans have substantial or majority European ancestry).

So we're a nation of immigrants and no one can claim the mantle of True American, this actually reinforces the demand that people conform. If people weren't forced to leave their old identity behind, we'd be a balkanized collection of peoples with different interests. But because we force everyone to become American (my parents are immigrants but now see themselves as American) we're able to unite the country by and large. Yes stuff happens, but overall we're a success.


Now when people said, but the Scoth- Irish or the Irish had troubles with Americans....

That argument fails because it's saying that a Similar group having problems to Britsh descended Americans (Christians, Northwest Europeans who speak English, Westerners) had difficulty and then assimilated. So an even farther flung group, Muslims, sometimes non-English speak, non-Western will also be just fine.


That's like saying, "This chair was able to support 50 lbs. so it should also be able to support 150 lbs." Don't be surprised if the chair breaks. Which is why people warn against taking in immigrants or refugees in numbers that aren't conducive to rapid assimilation.

 

[georges]

quite interesting thread