Ukraine

[Ace Boobtoucher]

Referendum on Sunday. That ought to be fun to watch.

 

[Deepcover]

Ukraines wants to go to Russia. Is this right?

 

[Jagger69]

Ukraines wants to go to Russia. Is this right?

Uhhhh....no.

Crimeans (politically, a part of Ukraine but historically a part of Russia) "voted" in a referendum for Crimea to become part of Russia today. It's an illegitimate action about which little can be done. A land grab by Putin that many say is the prelude to the eventual annexation of the eastern portion of Ukraine as well. Putin's dream would be to rebuild the Soviet Union and this is just the first step. If Crimea can be had, why not all of Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia....well, you get the idea.

I believe that Putin thinks that Obama's resolve is weak and he intends to test him to see how far he can go with this. It will be fascinating in a very frightening sort of way to see where those limits truly lie.

 

[Deepcover]

Uhhhh....no.

Crimeans (politically, a part of Ukraine but historically a part of Russia) "voted" in a referendum for Crimea to become part of Russia today. It's an illegitimate action about which little can be done. A land grab by Putin that many say is the prelude to the eventual annexation of the eastern portion of Ukraine as well. Putin's dream would be to rebuild the Soviet Union and this is just the first step. If Crimea can be had, why not all of Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia....well, you get the idea.

I believe that Putin thinks that Obama's resolve is weak and he intends to test him to see how far he can go with this. It will be fascinating in a very frightening sort of way to see where those limits truly lie.

Wow, that is scary but wasn't there a vote already?

 

[lurkingdirk]

Uhhhh....no.

Crimeans (politically, a part of Ukraine but historically a part of Russia) "voted" in a referendum for Crimea to become part of Russia today. It's an illegitimate action about which little can be done. A land grab by Putin that many say is the prelude to the eventual annexation of the eastern portion of Ukraine as well. Putin's dream would be to rebuild the Soviet Union and this is just the first step. If Crimea can be had, why not all of Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia....well, you get the idea.

I believe that Putin thinks that Obama's resolve is weak and he intends to test him to see how far he can go with this. It will be fascinating in a very frightening sort of way to see where those limits truly lie.

The last part of this is where I'm at. This is very fascinating. The Russians are really pushing the envelope here, and President Obama has little choice but to follow through. He has the UN's backing on this, and hopefully the statement from Germany today is the perspective the rest of the West will take on this.

Interesting and frightening times in which we live. The repercussions of this will potentially be felt for generations.

 

[Mayhem]

Y'know, if that many people are bent out of shape to be considered Russian, at some point I have to respect the process. The news sources keep saying the referendum isn't legitimate, but they're not saying how. Anyway, just because an election has results I don't like or work against my interests, I still have to respect the will of the People. It's the same thing with Venezuela. It doesn't matter that I don't like Maduro, a lot of people down there seem too.

 

[knowone]

Y'know, if that many people are bent out of shape to be considered Russian, at some point I have to respect the process. The news sources keep saying the referendum isn't legitimate, but they're not saying how. Anyway, just because an election has results I don't like or work against my interests, I still have to respect the will of the People. It's the same thing with Venezuela. It doesn't matter that I don't like Maduro, a lot of people down there seem too.

The referendum was a choice of "Leave Ukraine and join Russia" or "Leave Ukraine and stay independent" no option was given for "Stay in Ukraine"

 

[Mayhem]

The referendum was a choice of "Leave Ukraine and join Russia" or "Leave Ukraine and stay independent" no option was given for "Stay in Ukraine"

Well, vote for independence and then independantly rejoin Ukraine.

Keep in mind I'm not supporting or opposing any particular thing. I'm just saying that there seems to be a lot of pro-Russia support on the ground and they are the ones that have to live there.

 

[lurkingdirk]

I don't think it hurts the Russian position that the place is occupied with Russian troops. If you were going to vote against Russia, would it deter you if there were Russian troops around? The guess I've heard from most media is that those who would have voted in favour of independence, or who would have voted to remain in the Ukraine (if that was an option in this vote) stayed home.

 

[Jagger69]

Y'know, if that many people are bent out of shape to be considered Russian, at some point I have to respect the process. The news sources keep saying the referendum isn't legitimate, but they're not saying how. Anyway, just because an election has results I don't like or work against my interests, I still have to respect the will of the People. It's the same thing with Venezuela. It doesn't matter that I don't like Maduro, a lot of people down there seem too.

And the same thing with the Sudentenland and Austria, no? An historical reprise of the infamous Anschluss of Austria in 1938 in so many ways....a heavily pro-German population urged in the strongest possible way to vote for annexation.

Here is an excellent article that puts things in their proper perspective I believe (sorry it's a bit dated from March 5 but all points remain totally relevant under present circumstances):

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26415508

Under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the US, Russia, Ukraine and the UK agreed not to threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine. They also pledged never to use economic coercion to subordinate Ukraine to their own interest.

 

[MustBeGood]

Next Putin will claim Russians citizens in Belarus and Moldova need protection and after Ukraine he will focus on getting those two back into the old Soviet Union.

Luckly we grabbed all the others nations west of Russia that where part of the Soviet Bloc into NATO.

 

[Jagger69]

Next Putin will claim Russians citizens in Belarus and Moldova need protection and after Ukraine he will focus on getting those two back into the old Soviet Union.

Luckly we grabbed all the others nations west of Russia that where part of the Soviet Bloc into NATO.

True. Additionally, my guess would be that first he will want back all the mining and industrial regions in the Donetsk Basin (currently part of Ukraine). Dnepropetrovsk, Donetsk, Kharkov....talk about being historically Russian! Belarus and Moldava have got to be on the list as well.

Additionally, what is the west going to realistically be able to do about any of this should (when?) it come(s) to pass? Take partisan politics out of it....what are we going to do? Mobilize ground forces in eastern Europe to ramp up tensions even higher? Economic sanctions? Air strikes? A naval blockade? An old-style Barbarossa type invasion? Launch ICBMS and start a nuclear war? What? Truth is, much like Hitler did with the post-Versailles borders of Germany during the ramp-up to WWII, Putin is simply reclaiming territory that is and was historically and culturally a part of Russia.

Where is the proverbial "line in the sand" actually drawn regarding this situation? I'm thinking it is actually pretty far away from where we are now (anything short of an attack on a NATO member perhaps). Putin will be greatly emboldened by this triumph. There is surely more to come....and soon would be my guess.

 

[MustBeGood]

Ukraine's military is already sealing their borders with road blocks on the Russian border trying to stop the Putin's trouble makers types that infiltrated Crimea causing trouble, which was the excues to bring in the troops.

 

[Deepcover]

I'm confused in all this. So why is Putin considered a villian in all this? What's so wrong about a Russian President trying to rebuild the Soviet Union? Historically Jagger mentioned Crimea is really a part of Russia. Ok so Crimea should rejoin Russia once and for all and what does this conflict have to do with Americans? It isn't America's business to interfere right?

I got to read more history.

 

[Jagger69]

I'm confused in all this. So why is Putin considered a villian in all this? What's so wrong about a Russian President trying to rebuild the Soviet Union? Historically Jagger mentioned Crimea is really a part of Russia. Ok so Crimea should rejoin Russia once and for all and what does this conflict have to do with Americans? It isn't America's business to interfere right?

I got to read more history.

He's in violation of international agreements (both Hitler and Stalin did the same). Reread the article that I cited previously. Russia has violated the terms of the Budapest Memorandum. The whole annexation, historically justified or not, is therefore illegal....at least in theory. In practice, it was an easy yet defiant expansion of Russia's borders. The USA is treaty-bound to protect the interests of other NATO members (basically, NATO's terms mean that an attack against any member of NATO constitutes an attack on the United States). All this saber-rattling is just that. There's really not anything of substance that the USA can do....yet.

 

[Jagger69]

This was broadcast on Russian state-controlled TV by Rossiya 1 news channel anchor Dmitry Kiselyov during which he states (in front of a mushroom cloud backdrop) that Russia is the only nation on earth that can turn the USA into "radioactive dust". This type of threatening rhetoric has not been seen literally since the days of Khrushchev and the height of the Cold War. Putin obviously gave his stamp of approval to this commentary....a significant statement to not only the USA but the rest of the world as well. Sorry, no English subtitles but I think the message is clear no matter if you understand Russian or not:

What does all this mean? I think it is a game of chicken not at all unlike the Cuban Missile Crisis back in 1962. Kennedy didn't blink and, ultimately, Khrushchev did. He had underestimated the young American president. The situation now is similar but also very different....geography being the main component. Cuba is on the doorstep of America....Ukraine and Crimea are adjacent to Russia. In fact, Crimea is Russia. Scary stuff....really scary stuff.

From an article on this broadcast:

You know things are tense when people start talking about nuclear war.

A Russian television anchor has raised global eyebrows by noting in a commentary that Russia is "the only country in the world capable of turning the USA into radioactive dust."

Speaking on the Rossiya 1 news channel, Dmitry Kiselyov — who has supporters in the Kremlin — delivered a diatribe against critics of the Ukraine incursion with a picture of a mushroom cloud behind him.

At one point, Kiselyov attributed President Obama's increasingly gray hair to worries about Russia's nuclear arsenal.

Russian President Vladimir Putin recently appointed Kiselyov to lead an official news agency.

From The Washington Post:

"Kiselyov is no stranger to controversial statements. In the past he has used his show to argue that Russia's anti-gay propaganda laws should go further, and that homosexuals should be banned from giving blood or donating sperm. ...

"He may seem extreme, but Kiselyov apparently has the blessing of the Kremlin: He's been selected to head the new Russian state media conglomerate, Rossiya Segodnya, that is due to replace the well-respected Ria Novosti. He also has a point. Russia is still a major nuclear power, with an estimated 8,500 nuclear warheads, more than the United States."

Source is here:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/theov...n-ukraine-tv-anchor-radioactive-dust/6515197/

 

[MustBeGood]

I'm confused in all this. So why is Putin considered a villian in all this? What's so wrong about a Russian President trying to rebuild the Soviet Union? Historically Jagger mentioned Crimea is really a part of Russia. Ok so Crimea should rejoin Russia once and for all and what does this conflict have to do with Americans? It isn't America's business to interfere right?

I got to read more history.

It is in the history of two different views on the Eastern Orthodox faith people, or Slavs for the slang.

 

[spacearrow99]

This was broadcast on Russian state-controlled TV by Rossiya 1 news channel anchor Dmitry Kiselyov during which he states (in front of a mushroom cloud backdrop) that Russia is the only nation on earth that can turn the USA into "radioactive dust". This type of threatening rhetoric has not been seen literally since the days of Khrushchev and the height of the Cold War. Putin obviously gave his stamp of approval to this commentary....a significant statement to not only the USA but the rest of the world as well. Sorry, no English subtitles but I think the message is clear no matter if you understand Russian or not:

What does all this mean? I think it is a game of chicken not at all unlike the Cuban Missile Crisis back in 1962. Kennedy didn't blink and, ultimately, Khrushchev did. He had underestimated the young American president. The situation now is similar but also very different....geography being the main component. Cuba is on the doorstep of America....Ukraine and Crimea are adjacent to Russia. In fact, Crimea is Russia. Scary stuff....really scary stuff.

From an article on this broadcast:



Source is here:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/theov...n-ukraine-tv-anchor-radioactive-dust/6515197/

Kennedy removed our ballistic missiles from Turkey.

- - - Updated - - -

I have been to Belarus, some of my Belarusian friends have told me Belarus was the most Soviet republic that made up the USSR. Alexander Lukashenko is just like Putin, and he's loves Russia. Lukashenko usually gets whatever he wants from the Kremlin. Russia has a close relationship with Kazakhstan. Belarus and Kazakhstan are Collective Security Treaty Organization members. Russia basically controls their airspace. Kazakhstan has a very balanced foreign policy of being cooperative with all the world's major powers.

 

[lurkingdirk]

I just got an email from friends who live in the Ukraine, who decided to get out for their own safety:

Yesterday was the illegal referendum in the Crimea. At gunpoint a referendum was hastily conducted with amazing levels of corruption and falsifications. Nobody in the free world has accepted the results. It was a forgone conclusion that the Crimea would secede and it looks like it will be “welcomed” into the Russian Federation in the coming days, possibly on the 21st. If I tried to convey all the violations reported during the referendum most of you would not read to the end of the list. Let me just note one. In the city of Sevastopil, the largest city in Crimea, 123% of the population voted. Note, not of registered voters, but of the entire population including children. Needless to say, Russia got what it wanted.

Ukraine also refuses to accept the referendum and contends that the Crimea continues to be Ukraine. On the 21st, or before, when Russia claims it for Russia, there is a real threat of all-out war. This is one of the reasons we feel compelled to retreat to Western Ukraine (Mukachevo), near to the Hungarian border.

In addition early this morning news came out of a lawsuit being filed against the current government and the acting president, Turchinov. The lawsuit seeks to annul everything that they have done since taking over power and to reinstate the former president, Yanukovich, to power. The judge, Zaytsev, is very corrupt and a crony of Yanukovich. Therefore, again, the result of the case is in little doubt. This decision is all that Putin needs to get his propaganda machine cranking out the PR. On the basis of this decision, due at 10am on the 19th, Russia may try to invade Kyiv and forcefully reinstall Yanukovich as president. This is the immediate reason we feel it necessary to move west.

Interesting how everyone who is actually there is pretty convinced about the corruption of the Russians, and how this is just a grab that is not legitimate.

 

[spacearrow99]

I just got an email from friends who live in the Ukraine, who decided to get out for their own safety:



Interesting how everyone who is actually there is pretty convinced about the corruption of the Russians, and how this is just a grab that is not legitimate.

You look up the history of the Crimea and Ukraine. I don't have any doubt, that most of the people who live in the Crimea, want to join the Russian Federation. Our drone unilateral drone strikes in Pakistan are and act of war, so our government needs cool down the rhetoric on the Crimea.