Most say it's the guns. I say, it's today's society

[zeeblofowl_1969]

When push comes to shove the 2nd Amendment will never be overturned we as a people cannot agree on a new tax structure I don't not believe we could ever come together enough to pull a new Amendment off. Nor do I believe we should.

Empty the jails of drug addicts and fill them with criminals. Cut our obscene amount of waste on the military and focus the money on caring for our people. If there were proper mental health facilities to identify and help these people before they become monsters or to put away the ones who could not be helped it would help curb this problem. But nooooooooooo we need many new tanks and helicopters to keep Toronto off our backs....

 

[Johan]

These facts are indisputably true and correct.

[...]

For every one person who shoots another without cause, there are literally millions of us who don't.... and never will.

315,000,000 people in the US
Homicide rate : 2.9 (per 100.000 people)
So if you do the maths it makes 9,135 crimes per year
65% of homicides are gun homicides.
So, do the maths again, it makes 5,937 gun homicide per years
About 75,000 adults do have at least one gun
Do the maths, : 5,937 gun crimes for 75,000 gun owner the result is 12.6 (let's say 13)
So, for each gun owner that will use his gun to comit homicide, 13 won't.
Not "millions" as your post says, 13.

Your said they were indisputably true and correct facts. I checked the fist one and it couldn't be more wrong !
Checking the 35 remaining would take hours, if not days but, if the very first is that wrong, then the credibility of the entire post is gone !

 

[lurkingdirk]

I think this is a pointless debate. One thing that this incident proves is that this is a multifaceted problem. Not a single-issue problem.

Gun availability? Problem
Mental health care? Problem
The ability of an armed person to walk into a school? Problem
Parenting of this individual? Problem


The idea that you can solve mass shootings by merely taking away guns is ridiculous. There are so many things to be addressed, it is hard to know where to begin.

That being said, it is equally ridiculous to say that restricting gun ownership would have no impact on incidents of this sort.

These are complex issues, people. Simplistic, single faceted statements about guns will do nothing but further polarize people on an issue that is not the sole issue at hand. How about we all think about this a little more deeply?

:2 cents:

 

[Rey C.]

There is not a single fact present in this list. Those that appear to resemble facts are actually self-evident observations that are tautologically true, and the conclusions drawn from them are therefore half-truths at best, and are both unsubstantiated and unquantified.

For example, the first claim that "For every one person who shoots another without cause, there are millions of gun owners who do not....and will not" rests upon the benign observation that "not every person shoots another every day, only some." This is true, but only tautologically so; if the reverse were true, the human race would be extinct.

What this claim alleges is that the number of people who don't shoot others every day is numerically insignificant compared to the number of people who do, and in an attempt to make this difference seem as wide as possible, the quantity "millions" is used to describe the former, which seems much larger than the unspecified quantity attributed to the latter. But while it's true that far more people don't shoot others, what of the ones who do? And what is the rate of offenders to non-offenders across demographics, socio-economic condition and national identity? If the rate of gun homicides is 10 times greater in one area than the rate in another area, is that considered "okay" because "millions" more aren't killed, or do higher rates in one area warrant looking into the possible reasons for such differences?

This is why we need to think about what things mean, and analyze them in terms of definable quantities, not in broad, sweeping generalizations and sophomorically obvious statements that anyone would accept.

Others so-called facts (especially those that involve the use of words like 'can' and 'would', 'if-then' statements, philosophical generalizations regarding "human nature" and sweeping, purely rhetorical claims such as stating that something "will have zero positive effect") are clearly intended to push an agenda, not to present evidence.

And just as a side note, one should always be wary of claims that something "is indisputably true" and cannot possibly be refuted by any other viewpoint, especially when such claims are made numerous times. This is a sure sign that the author lacks support for their beliefs and simply will not open their mind to other alternatives because it is discomfitting to them.

Saaaay... you're not from around here, are ya, partner? Roald (aka Ronald aka Dances with Sheep) promised to stop letting intelligent, rational people into Freeones. Somehow, you snuck through, didn't ya?! :nono:

Been nice havin' ya here and all. But I gotta go report you now, so they can send the boys to pick you up and throw you out.

 

[lurkingdirk]

Also, to people on both sides of this issue:

 

[yada46]

315,000,000 people in the US
Homicide rate : 2.9 (per 100.000 people)
So if you do the maths it makes 9,135 crimes per year
65% of homicides are gun homicides.
So, do the maths again, it makes 5,937 gun homicide per years
About 75,000 adults do have at least one gun
Do the maths, : 5,937 gun crimes for 75,000 gun owner the result is 12.6 (let's say 13)
So, for each gun owner that will use his gun to comit homicide, 13 won't.
Not "millions" as your post says, 13.

Your said they were indisputably true and correct facts. I checked the fist one and it couldn't be more wrong !
Checking the 35 remaining would take hours, if not days but, if the very first is that wrong, then the credibility of the entire post is gone !

Correction, how many of those guns used in those homicides are actually registered to the suspect? Technically, if they are used illegally by a certain person, you cannot consider him/her the actual "gun owner" so this whole post is inaccurate

 

[Mr. Daystar]

More importantly, how many incidents do they ever tell you about, that involve a gun saving a life, other then the occasional old lady whose door gets kicked in by a thug, or a teenager home alone, that grabs dads gun, to save their little sibling. Every day, guns save lives too, but you never hear about that.

There's a big difference between killing, and murder. A soldier, a policeman, a law abiding innocent home owner....they KILL, a bad guy. A thug, a madman, they MURDER.

 

[Johan]

More importantly, how many incidents do they ever tell you about, that involve a gun saving a life, other then the occasional old lady whose door gets kicked in by a thug, or a teenager home alone, that grabs dads gun, to save their little sibling.

Indeed, that would be interesting to know. 'cause when the negative effects are superior to the positive effects, that thing is usually banned
Ex : A medicine to common flue that would be carcinogen would be banned.

Then, if guns are more used by criminals to kill, hurt or threat their victims than law abiding citizens to protect themselves or others from criminals, they should be banned, right ? I mean, what's the point of legalising something that creates more problems that it actualy resolves ?

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Indeed, that would be interesting to know. 'cause when the negative effects are superior to the positive effects, that thing is usually banned
Ex : A medicine to common flue that would be carcinogen would be banned.

Then, if guns are more used by criminals to kill, hurt or threat their victims than law abiding citizens to protect themselves or others from criminals, they should be banned, right ? I mean, what's the point of legalising something that creates more problems that it actualy resolves ?

Again. If one innocent live per year is saved by a gun, and 1 million are taken, it's still worth the lose of freedom. Banning something only affects the people who respect, and follow the law....criminals tend to not really cooperate with the law....that's why we call them criminals. If you want unbiased, crime statistics, you have to get them from the FBI...not the gun grabbers, or the pro gunners.

Doesn't really matter what the stats are anyway, the pro gun crowd, and all of the organizations that represent our interests are ready to fight this till the end. They want current laws fixed, before ANY new laws are passed, and that is exactly what needs to be done, PERIOD!

 

[Johan]

Nothing is the all world is 100% black or 100% white, everything is grey, an countless shades of grey.
You don't have criminal with illegal guns on one side, and law-abiding citizens on the other, things are a little more complicated than that :
-There's the guy who's in a bar, drunk, somebody is pissing him off, he draws his gun and shoot the other guy
-There's the guy who learns his wife is cheating on him with someone he knows (a friend, a neighboor, a co-worker, etc.), snaps and kill the both
-There's the guy who's been told he's fired, draws his gun and starts killing everyone at the office that's what happened in Minneapolis on September 27th)
-There's the guy's kid who managed to get his hands on daddy's gun, played with it and killed his friend (In the US, about 500 children die annually from accidental gunshots).
Etc...

None of these guys were criminals. Still, they are responsible for the death of innocent people.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

You know what I find amazing? You just will not for one second comprehend that these premises you put forth are random occurrences, that can be adopted to any object. How many men have found out their wife was cheating, and strangled them, how many drunk guys have gotten pissed and stabbed the other guy, or just beat his skull on the concrete until he was bludgeoned to death. And any parent that doesn't lock up their guns, should suffer the fate that befalls them.

How would you feel if someone say, killed his live in girlfriend, then fled your country, to another, that wouldn't extradite him, even though he was convicted fairly, in a court of law. Would you be willing to accept that this person lives carefree, and has the back up of the country he fled to, even though that country is supposedly the Allie of the country he fled from?

 

[Rattrap]

You know what I find amazing? You just will not for one second comprehend that these premises you put forth are random occurrences, that can be adopted to any object. How many men have found out their wife was cheating, and strangled them, how many drunk guys have gotten pissed and stabbed the other guy, or just beat his skull on the concrete until he was bludgeoned to death.

I don't know about the bar fights, but as for relationship violence strangling is at 22%, max. Compared to 54% minimum that are shot (the data is arranged by gender victim, and strangling only falls into an 'other' category).

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/LawProbHoward.htm

 

[Johan]

how many drunk guys have gotten pissed and stabbed the other guy, or just beat his skull on the concrete until he was bludgeoned to death.

Man draws a knife in bar-fight ; 1 (barely) injured : http://www.enterprisenews.com/answe...ight-victim-wishes-to-set-the-record-straight
Man draws a gun in a bar fight ; 1 dead, 6 (seriously) injured : http://www.federalwaymirror.com/news/160545115.html

And any parent that doesn't lock up their guns, should suffer the fate that befalls them

Yeah, and the kids too : Daddy said "Don't touch the gun", they took it and played with it, they deserved to kill themselves or kill their friend (and the friend's parents deserved to have their kid killed)

How would you feel if someone say, killed his live in girlfriend, then fled your country, to another, that wouldn't extradite him, even though he was convicted fairly, in a court of law. Would you be willing to accept that this person lives carefree, and has the back up of the country he fled to, even though that country is supposedly the Allie of the country he fled from?

A few days aago, you told me no to make "What if..." hypothesis.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

A few days aago, you told me no to make "What if..." hypothesis.

Then let me rephrase it...YOUR fucking asshole leaders won't extradite woman killers, because we want to put him in the chair...some fucking pussy named Ira something...been living nice and comfy in France, while the girls family waits for justice....and then there's kiddie diddler, Roman Polanski. Gives a 15 year old girl wine and ludes, and then has sex with her, when she's fucked up out of her mind. Not really a gun issue, but just a little reminder of how fucked you your country is.

 

[yada46]

Everyone needs to ask themselves, "If someone with a gun breaks into my house while I'm still home, what is my best defense?" I bet hiding in a corner isn't the first thing that comes to mind.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Everyone needs to ask themselves, "If someone with a gun breaks into my house while I'm still home, what is my best defense?" I bet hiding in a corner isn't the first thing that comes to mind.

It's not, but in obama's home state, you are required by law to retreat in your own home.

Your best option is always have a plan, and make sure your family is aware of how it works. ALWAYS charge your cell phone in your bedroom, and take it with you to bed. Make sure the children know which room is the go to, "safe room"....usually the parents room. However, it is in your best interest to remain in that room, and not go on a hunting trip. If they have to come to you, you have the tactical advantage. Let them know the law has been called, and that you have a gun. Never admit to ANYTHING on a 911 call, but be sure they know to inform the police you are in fact armed, and the home owner, and where you're located in the home, and describe yourself, so the police know who you are.

 

[georges]

Then let me rephrase it...YOUR fucking asshole leaders won't extradite woman killers, because we want to put him in the chair...some fucking pussy named Ira something...been living nice and comfy in France, while the girls family waits for justice....and then there's kiddie diddler, Roman Polanski. Gives a 15 year old girl wine and ludes, and then has sex with her, when she's fucked up out of her mind. Not really a gun issue, but just a little reminder of how fucked you your country is.

He loves socialists and the left wing in general, he has no sense of realism nor any sense of justice. The socialist leaders who are in France were mainly elected thanks to the ghetto trash crowd and the unwilling to work people. 51% of dirtbags voted for them.

 

[Johan]

Then let me rephrase it...YOUR fucking asshole leaders won't extradite woman killers, because we want to put him in the chair...some fucking pussy named Ira something...been living nice and comfy in France, while the girls family waits for justice...

Einhorm was extradited in 2001 But I can't really talk about this, I know very poor about it...

and then there's kiddie diddler, Roman Polanski. Gives a 15 year old girl wine and ludes, and then has sex with her, when she's fucked up out of her mind.

I'm with you on that one, Polanski 's an asshole and I can't understannd why, because he as "artist", most of our left-wing artists and politicians defended him, this guy should spent the rest of his life behind bars.

but just a little reminder of how fucked you your country is

I don't need a reminder, I'm actualy living in it so I'm pretty aware of how thing are...
But there some subjects for which I think we're not as fucked up as the US are. For example we never tried to impeach our president because he cheated his wife. Our former president Mitterrand (1981-1994) cheated his wife, he even had a daughter with his mistress. Nobody's shock, nobody would try to impeach him for that.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Einhorm was extradited in 2001 But I can't really talk about this, I know very poor about it...

I wasn't aware....but it still took a couple of decades.

We didn't try to impeach him for being a man whore, they wanted to impeach him for being a liar...or as we call them around her, a politician.

 

[Rey C.]

I think this is a pointless debate. One thing that this incident proves is that this is a multifaceted problem. Not a single-issue problem.

Gun availability? Problem
Mental health care? Problem
The ability of an armed person to walk into a school? Problem
Parenting of this individual? Problem


The idea that you can solve mass shootings by merely taking away guns is ridiculous. There are so many things to be addressed, it is hard to know where to begin.

That being said, it is equally ridiculous to say that restricting gun ownership would have no impact on incidents of this sort.

These are complex issues, people. Simplistic, single faceted statements about guns will do nothing but further polarize people on an issue that is not the sole issue at hand. How about we all think about this a little more deeply?

:2 cents:

Just happened to be looking back at some old threads and I came across this. Yeah, I'm going to really miss this guy. This is an issue where we didn't see eye-to-eye, yet he was able to present a reasonable (IMO) position that I totally agreed with.

This, at the end of the day, is just a porn board - no better and no worse than many other message boards on the net. But having people around like ol' Dirk made it much more than what it was.