Michelle Obama

[Friday on my mind]

While I agree that there are those that are attempting to demonize Obama in the manner you describe, I think you have to be careful here. Under your scenario there is no way for Obama to be rejected without the country being racist. Catch 22?
You should allow for the possibility that people are hesitant to vote for Obama because he is unproven and (possibly) more speech than substance.
Nationwide polls show many people feel he is a riskier choice (not just white supremacist racist wackos). People trust him less than McCain not because he is black but because he is unknown.
Unknown doesn't necessarily mean bad, but it doesn't necessarily mean good either. The fact that some dumbass puts a racist video about Obama on YouTube does not mean everyone believes it or agrees. Nor should it automatically be considered the reason why the nation may decide to vote otherwise.

Furthermore, McCain is definitely not George Bush (no matter how much Obama would like people to believe that he is) - just as you and CunningStunts pointed out earlier. McCain has had the time to *prove* that he can reach across the aisle in contradiction of Bush and others at great personal risk - Obama so far has been forced to merely say it. How often has Obama bucked his own party line? Worse, during his brief political exposure, Obama has often changed his positions in a manner that is politically expedient. Obama and his team need to work on backing up his words rather than labeling all opposition racist (as he labeled Clinton). If he does this he may indeed widen his lead.

I think it will be clear after the election what were the factors that determined the results and what role race and racism played.On this issue of Obama being possibly rejected mainly over experience I would say lets look at 1992 and the election of Clinton.His experience as a gov of AR was not much to speak of eithier in many peoples eyes and that and even a scandle like Jennifer Flowers didn't prevent him from being elected.That was due to anxiety anbout the economy,people were willing to overlook most things and wanted a new leader and party in power.Does anyone think the level of anxiety is any less now?No I think clearly if Obama was a white guy he would be easily elected given how damaged the republicans are.Unknown relatively would work to his favor under such a scenario and has been working for Obama to large degree.

But like I said we will know after the election what the truth is about all this.If McCain wins big which I think is very possible given the reasons of racial fears and bias it will be especially clear IMO.

 

[Ceska]

(not picking on you FOMM, but you explain your position clearly so it makes for valuable discussion)

I think it will be clear after the election what were the factors that determined the results and what role race and racism played.On this issue of Obama being possibly rejected mainly over experience I would say lets look at 1992 and the election of Clinton.His experience as a gov of AR was not much to speak of eithier in many peoples eyes and that and even a scandle like Jennifer Flowers didn't prevent him from being elected.That was due to anxiety anbout the economy,people were willing to overlook most things and wanted a new leader and party in power.Does anyone think the level of anxiety is any less now?No I think clearly if Obama was a white guy he would be easily elected given how damaged the republicans are.Unknown relatively would work to his favor under such a scenario and has been working for Obama to large degree.

But like I said we will know after the election what the truth is about all this.If McCain wins big which I think is very possible given the reasons of racial fears and bias it will be especially clear IMO.

How will it ever become clear? When exactly will it become clear? Based on what information? We can't validly conclude simply from the size of a margin - the cause of the margin. Beyond assumptions this is not a way to evaluate the degree of racism that is in people's minds when they pull the lever.

Polls of Obama vs Huckabee have shown an Obama lead consistently in the double digits. Can I conclude simply from the size of the margin that people are racist against Huckabee? Or is it more likely that people prefer Obama's positions over those of Huckabee?

Ok ... maybe Obama is able to lead Huckabee due to the state that the Republican party is in? People are willing to put away their racism in (Obama vs Huckabee) because of the Bush legacy, right? --- Then why do a whole room full of white male Democrats - (Biden, Dodd, Gravel, Kucinich) fare worse than Obama when matched up against with Huckabee? They even come out behind Huckabee. Don't they have both the advantage of being white and Democrat? Why aren't their margins larger? Is Richardson losing because people are racist against Hispanics?

I agree race has been used for leverage by both Republicans and Democrats. But we can't simply say that if a candidate loses (or even loses by a certain margin) that racism was the deciding factor.

 

[Legzman]

She sees a black and white America and claims blacks are not equal but are superior to the white race.

blacks are superior to whites? How? Because if you cut em there is white meat underneath. Maybe thats why they are superior, they have both skin tones :dunno:

 

[Ceska]

blacks are superior to whites? How? Because if you cut em there is white meat underneath. Maybe thats why they are superior, they have both skin tones :dunno:

Perhaps one is more delicious ... (with some fava beans and a nice chianti)...


Maybe that's what is meant by superior... :dunno:

 

[Friday on my mind]

(not picking on you FOMM, but you explain your position clearly so it makes for valuable discussion)



How will it ever become clear? When exactly will it become clear? Based on what information? We can't validly conclude simply from the size of a margin - the cause of the margin. Beyond assumptions this is not a way to evaluate the degree of racism that is in people's minds when they pull the lever.

Polls of Obama vs Huckabee have shown an Obama lead consistently in the double digits. Can I conclude simply from the size of the margin that people are racist against Huckabee? Or is it more likely that people prefer Obama's positions over those of Huckabee?

Ok ... maybe Obama is able to lead Huckabee due to the state that the Republican party is in? People are willing to put away their racism in (Obama vs Huckabee) because of the Bush legacy, right? --- Then why do a whole room full of white male Democrats - (Biden, Dodd, Gravel, Kucinich) fare worse than Obama when matched up against with Huckabee? They even come out behind Huckabee. Don't they have both the advantage of being white and Democrat? Why aren't their margins larger? Is Richardson losing because people are racist against Hispanics?

I agree race has been used for leverage by both Republicans and Democrats. But we can't simply say that if a candidate loses (or even loses by a certain margin) that racism was the deciding factor.

There is a phenomenom known as "the bradley effect" which is described here in the Wik link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_effect

You can't trust what people tell pollsters in many cases when a black is in the race.They are less than honest sometimes wishing not to appear racist.In the wik link there is speculation about how valid the effect is at this time and how it is effecting the current campaign and Obama.But I have no doubt after the election analysts will be able to sift through the data and detemine such things.Yes we can conclude things if the actual results of the elctions are in sharp variance with what the pre-election polling data showed.To what degree if any race played will be determined.People saying they will disregard race as a factor is one thing,what they actually do on election day may be another.Time will tell,and it will be known IMO.
And Obama knows this very well when he says he is still the underdog and makes reference to things like he doesn't look like all the other presidents on the money.To beleive that race and being black will not be a factor for some maybe many white voters is being naive IMO.Will it cause Obama to lose ,only that day in Nov will determine that.And I have not seen any polls that show Huckabee could beat the people you mention.Whose bothering to poll such things at this point? The one caveat I would say is if the economy looks much bleaker by Nov ,all other factors will be lessened and Obama will be in a stronger position.But I find it actually shocking how close the polls between Obama and McCain are right now.You want to believe that is mainly due to some question of experience but I don't buy it.

 

[titsrock]

The vast majority of Coonasses voted for Edwards, 'cause they wanted to have jobs and life as they knew it, and I see the Obama fervor as similarly emotional rather than rational. (I know, a generalization.)

I was enjoying an amusing read from a bona fide wacko (have you actually watched more than 5 minutes of CNN, not including when Lou Dobbs goes on one of his racist immigration rants?) when I read this part:nono: Did you pick that up from Hannity or O'Reilly?

You're comments about David Duke are wrong, fwiw. David Duke was shown to be a stupid dumbass in an interview on NBC by Tim Russert. Duke couldn't name any basic facts about Louisiana--largest employer, unemployment rate, etc.

 

[YMIHERE]

McCain is trying to define the Obamas as “not one of us”. He bases this not on skin color but on anti intellectualism. Who would have believed that a democratic black man would be running for president and the pubs would try to portray him as an elitist. But this is a clever ruse because code words are used that can easily be seen as anti black sentiments by those looking to vote for the racist. The pubs call it their Southern Strategy and they have used it to great effect since LBJ pushed the sixties civil rights laws and switched the south from the dems to the pubs.

 

[Philbert]

I was enjoying an amusing read from a bona fide wacko (have you actually watched more than 5 minutes of CNN, not including when Lou Dobbs goes on one of his racist immigration rants?) when I read this part:nono: Did you pick that up from Hannity or O'Reilly?

You're comments about David Duke are wrong, fwiw. David Duke was shown to be a stupid dumbass in an interview on NBC by Tim Russert. Duke couldn't name any basic facts about Louisiana--largest employer, unemployment rate, etc.

Actually, your comments are wrong.
Your generalizations from wherever you were when you saw some interview on NBC made no difference at the time of the election; I was living in the middle of the Louisiana political scenario, and what I described was what went on.
People were ready to take DD seriously as a candidate, he was the the other one in the race; duh...
Most people, right up to election time, were pissed about a lot of things DD was addressing, but they knew he couldn't hold a candle to a savvy politico like Edwin E.
I suggest you do like I do, and think for yourself; then you won't need to ask anyone where they got their personal point of view. from this show or that show. You'll actually be able to tell someone's thoughts on a subject apart from TV rhetoric.
If you think everyone does as you do, and gets their opinions from someone else, then you'll never be able to expand your intellectual horizon (learn).
Try it, you'll like it.

 

[titsrock]

In '04 Kerry was smeared as an "Elitist" by the Wackoes because he married a hugely rich lady. This time around, it's the Pub candidate who married the rich lady and yet the GOP still trot out the ol' "Elitist" charge for the Dem candidate....If Michelle Obama released a $500k Amex Bill to the press, there would be a hellstorm unleashed upon Barack by the Pub Machine...but since Cindy McCain's 6 digit credit card statement hit the wires...nothing from the Dems...? Hmmm.....perhaps they know a 30 point win for them is coming and there's no need to pile on?

 

[YMIHERE]

Edit

 

[titsrock]

I suggest you do like I do, and think for yourself; then you won't need to ask anyone where they got their personal point of view. from this show or that show. You'll actually be able to tell someone's thoughts on a subject apart from TV rhetoric.
If you think everyone does as you do, and gets their opinions from someone else, then you'll never be able to expand your intellectual horizon (learn).
Try it, you'll like it.

Hmmm. Okay. But why would you consider a Grand Wizard of the KKK worthy of holding political office? To, me that doesn't sound like someone who has the best interests of constituents in mind...only the interests of a selected people.

Perhaps you could cue up the youtube clip of Tim Russert's interview with the Wizard, himself, and you can see if he was clowned publically or not. :dunno:

 

[Ceska]

...
But I have no doubt after the election analysts will be able to sift through the data and detemine such things.Yes we can conclude things if the actual results of the elctions are in sharp variance with what the pre-election polling data showed.

You just stated that the polling data cannot be taken as accurate.

Let's assume that the polls are accurate...
1) How do you think that the election analysts will be able to accurately calculate the degree to which race played a role?

That conclusion cannot be based simply on the fact that a person has lost to another or based on the size of the margin (as was previously claimed).

2) Does the fact that Richardson lost to Obama mean that people were racist against Hispanics? Why not?

3) Does the fact that Obama beat Hillary mean that people were sexist?
Why not?

Hillary Clinton (who has devoted a large part of her life to the African American community) was painted as a racist during the campaign. Why was that? People want to claim that Hillary Clinton and others are automatically racist, I just don't buy it.

 

[Ceska]

In '04 Kerry was smeared as an "Elitist" by the Wackoes because he married a hugely rich lady. This time around, it's the Pub candidate who married the rich lady and yet the GOP still trot out the ol' "Elitist" charge for the Dem candidate....

Are you sure it is only Obama that is being painted as an Elitist?
Have you tried Googleing - "Cindy McCain" filthy rich bitch?

If you want to find a GOP who is spouting such nonesense they can be found in the millions.
If you want to find a Dem spouting such nonsense they can be found in the millions.

People who care about such things can easily find fuel for their pointless fires.
There are plenty of these smear claims on both sides.

 

[bombardier52]

In '04 Kerry was smeared as an "Elitist" by the Wackoes because he married a hugely rich lady. This time around, it's the Pub candidate who married the rich lady and yet the GOP still trot out the ol' "Elitist" charge for the Dem candidate....If Michelle Obama released a $500k Amex Bill to the press, there would be a hellstorm unleashed upon Barack by the Pub Machine...but since Cindy McCain's 6 digit credit card statement hit the wires...nothing from the Dems...? Hmmm.....perhaps they know a 30 point win for them is coming and there's no need to pile on?

But it's beer money, so it's okay!

 

[YMIHERE]

Are you sure it is only Obama that is being painted as an Elitist?
Have you tried Googleing - "Cindy McCain" filthy rich bitch?

If you want to find a GOP who is spouting such nonesense they can be found in the millions.
If you want to find a Dem spouting such nonsense they can be found in the millions.

People who care about such things can easily find fuel for their pointless fires.
There are plenty of these smear claims on both sides.

Well, you can find anything you want on the internet. But it's McCain's own official staff who are putting out the "He's not one of us" campaign ads. Obama's staff did not play the Elitist card against McCain or his wife. Not yet anyway.

 

[Moe_Fuzz]

Her husband's Muslim upbringing also postulates this position.

He is not a Muslim. Seriously, turn off FOX News.

 

[Dough112]

Why would anyone in there right mind vote for Obama? Please can someone tell me? What has he accomplished in politics? Oh yeah, he has only been in politics for a couple years. I love how he says he is for change, hmmmmm.... well he has never stated what he is going to change, or what needs changing. Also another thing he is a MUSLIM! The Terrorist's who want American people dead, they aren't catholic, jewish or buddhists, they are MUSLIMS!!! I also heard that Obama dosen't salute our flag. Now that is a president i want, one that won't show his respect to our flag that represents freedom. Please people do America a favor and don't vote for Barrack Osama, whoops i mean Obama.

He is not a Muslim. Seriously, turn off FOX News.

Yeah he is look at his name, Barrack Obama. That isn't the name of a jew or christian is it? Didn't think so, it is a Muslim name.

 

[Philbert]

Yeah he is look at his name, Barrack Obama. That isn't the name of a jew or christian is it? Didn't think so, it is a Muslim name.

Get this straight...Barak Obama is not a Muslim.
His birth father was a Muslim, his stepfather was a Muslim, and Barak was raised in a Muslim environment. He is a practicing Christian, the path he chose as an adult.
Whatever I have to bone-pick with him, BS doesn't need to be injected.
It's his Christian connection that gives me a lot of tzuris; Wright is a foaming at the mouth anti-White Black racist; Barak is his boy for many a year.
Not now, of course. Time to run for Prez...
I also have a Christian name, and I am not a Christian. So much for astute deduction.
At least dislike for true reasons, there is always enough bad stuff to dislike someone for...

 

[Sherlock_Holmes]

Get this straight...Barak Obama is not a Muslim.
His birth father was a Muslim, his stepfather was a Muslim, and Barak was raised in a Muslim environment. He is a practicing Christian, the path he chose as an adult.
Whatever I have to bone-pick with him, BS doesn't need to be injected.
It's his Christian connection that gives me a lot of tzuris; Wright is a foaming at the mouth anti-White Black racist; Barak is his boy for many a year.
Not now, of course. Time to run for Prez...
I also have a Christian name, and I am not a Christian. So much for astute deduction.
At least dislike for true reasons, there is always enough bad stuff to dislike someone for...

You beat me to it regarding your first point. I really wish people would learn to research before they blindly throw stuff out there and come across as ignorant.

 

[Philbert]

Uhhh, His mum's pref was moslem men, after all, she married one and then later, another !!
There's a lot of material out there to suggest that obama is not what he portrays, yet people simply don't want to hear it.

Actually, common knowledge...I learned of his Muslim background from Mike Gallagher, "right wing " radio talk show pundit. All the details...
I listen and smile...what people don't say speaks louder sometimes than what they do say.