Israeli Attacks Gaza Strip, Killing 200+

[guest111]

In Dense Gaza, Civilians Suffer

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/world/middleeast/01gaza.html?ref=world

(sorry, for all the multiple posts in a row, I wanted to condense it down to one. But they dont let you edit them after 10 min.)

 

[CADDYMAN]

they hate each other

this will never end

Religion is the root of all evil

happy new year

 

[MiGHTyDuCK]

To Mightyduck:

- Israeli GDP per capita 25 times that of Palestinian's.
- For every Israeli killed by Palestinian's, Israel kills 10+ Palestinian's
- Israeli's live in free country with nuclear weapons and American backing. Palestinian's live in occupied territories.
- UN says Israeli blockade is starving Gaza Strip
- Latest death toll: Palestinian's killed, 375. Israeli's killed, 4.

Man, those Palestinian children sure got it good compared to those Israeli children.

and yet you keep ignoring what you want and highlighting what makes your point look better.

what about Gilad Shalit you know who he is right ? (he is an israeli soldier which was abducted last year, rearly heared from him)
Gilad is held prisioner by the hamas or maybe even Iran by now
his family gets no information from him, and none the less the hamas used a person in the israeli uniform in thier ralley two weeks ago of him beggin on his knees crying for mom infornt of more than 100.000 hamas pepole you call that human being's behaviiour ?! i am not sure about that
did you know that each palastinian prisionr in israel is allowed for a degree paid by the GOVERMENT ?!
they get full meals, the get full access to computers and phones
they recive and send letters as much as they want.
they have it preety good
the world media is taking the palastinan's side and i can see why, they "photo" better, they look poorer , they bring more rating , and hey, everyone just loves the underdog.

as for the children, both sides are miserable but you cant just look at one side, if you want to call it fair, than fair all the way.
you have no idea what the childeren at southern israel are going through.
becuase the media is merley showing it
3 days ago the BBC made an article a bout the children in gazza, where is the one about the children in israel ? you want me to post photoages ?
there are injuries at the israeli side too, they are not as much as the Gazza side for now, but if you take into considiration all the injuries israel had during the so called cease of fire, you'll get even
they just did it in smaller proportion's
I AM NOT PRO VIOLENCE, AND I AM NOT PRO THIS ATTACK AND I THINK THAT IF THIS TURNS INTO A SOMETHING THAT ISRAEL WILL BRING GROUND FORCES IN GAZZA IT WILL BE DEATH SCENE FOR BOTH SIDES IN A MEASURE THAT EVERYONE WILL LOSE.

but please, just please try to look both sides before you go out shouting like you do....
every coin is 2 sides...

as for the picture cartoon, thats just a perfect example for whats going on in life the hamas attack's israeli shut's up, over and over again
israel warned , talked peacefully , CLEARED SETTELMENTS (which is something you just cant igonore this is the biggest step ever done here to bring peace)
you cant be suprised by it.

have a good day

 

[D-rock]

they hate each other

this will never end

Religion is the root of all evil

happy new year

Greed and lust for power are the root of all evil. Some people just use religion as a convenient excuse to justify it.

 

[Voyeur De Jour]

"When you said in post #40 of the other Israeli thread: 'Wish it was 2,000 dead Palestinians. They only live for death ... the sooner it comes to them, the better.' You don't want to exterminate them. You only wish them all dead. "

Yes ... but 2,000 is a far cry from 'exterminating' them and making them 'all dead.' I could have said 20,000 or 2 million ... but I didn't. There are between 10 and 11 million Palestinians. Think "animals" and "savages" are harsh words (and I agree, they are ... but this is a harsh situation) well I think "exterminate" is equally harsh ... and in the context of what I said, inaccurate.

Let me be clear: I'd like them to take more casualties ... significantly more casualties ... until their ability to attack Israel is degraded and/or they learn that attacking their militarily-superior neighbor out of pure spite is NOT a valid option and voting for terrorist organizations to run your nation is not going to provide you a bright future.

I understand the Quassam is a primitive (home-made) P.O.S. weapon. I've seen them on the news and know a fair amount about weapons and fabrication. Still, to make them requires the expenditures of resources that are better used elsewhere. A Quassam never fed a hungry child, provided shelter or medical care. It just wreaks terror on civilians. It is easy to dismiss them ... until one lands on your house.

Imagine if Brownsville, Texas was being peppered with these primitive weapons by a bunch of zealots in Mexico. The US response would be overwhelming ... call it an asymetrical response to asymetrical warfare. Not perfect ... but what other options would a defending country have?

Yes I know, I know ... building a fence and Palestinians relocating to other countries are not simple, 100% solutions. But nothing in life is perfect and since the other solution they've come up (which is to use the land that was just given back to them to launch terror weapons against Israel) they may be beneficial enough to pursue.

 

[Cassie84]

Let me be clear: I'd like them to take more casualties ... significantly more casualties

I understand the Quassam is a primitive (home-made) P.O.S. weapon. I've seen them on the news and know a fair amount about weapons and fabrication. Still, to make them requires the expenditures of resources that are better used elsewhere. A Quassam never fed a hungry child, provided shelter or medical care. It just wreaks terror on civilians. It is easy to dismiss them ... until one lands on your house.

Wow, you are really messed up, wishing death or serious injury upon another human being is just plain sick.

And it's just the Quassam missiles that wreak terror on civilians? The Israeli bombing runs deliver what, Flowers?

It seems to me the only solution you see is to decimate the entire Palestinian population and you are conveniently forgetting that there are 2 sides at fault here. I would have a lot more respect for you if you just came out and say you hate them and want to see them exterminated instead of trying to hide behind what you obviously see as rational thinking. It's not the first time I've seen someone trying to disguise their hatred as something else and it won't be the last time.

Cassie.

 

[Facetious]

So they're calling for a "Cease Fire"

My Ass !!

It's more like - Time out, Hamas needs to feed and water their burros as the Syrians restock the supplies of the rocket launchers. cease fire lol !

Aside - What most casual observers don't understand is that the majority of the poor and deprived, rank and file Palestinians are devoted to martyrdom. They wouldn't know prosperity if you handed it to them. Maybe it's just simply ignorance, or maybe it's a way of life :dunno:

 

[LBP 76]

There are between 10 and 11 million Palestinians.

ln the Gaza Strip, where all this is taking place, there are 1.5 million Palestinians.

Let me be clear: I'd like them to take more casualties ... significantly more casualties

You said, 'Wish it was 2,000 dead Palestinians. They only live for death ... the sooner it comes to them, the better.' So, you said that it would be better if all Palestinians die. You didn't say 'some of them'. You said 'they', meaning all Palestinians.
Thusly, you welcome extermination.

until their ability to attack Israel is degraded and/or they learn that attacking their militarily-superior neighbor out of pure spite is NOT a valid option and voting for terrorist organizations to run your nation...

They are part of Israel. They are not a seperate nation.

 

[LBP 76]

Aside - What most casual observers don't understand is that the majority of the poor and deprived, rank and file Palestinians are devoted to martyrdom. They wouldn't know prosperity if you handed it to them.

I'd be most curious to see your fact based, source material for this 'understanding'.

 

[LBP 76]

did you know that each palastinian prisionr in israel is allowed for a degree paid by the GOVERMENT ?!
they get full meals, the get full access to computers and phones

Since Israel doesn't let enough food and medicine into the Gaza Strip then that means that Israel treats their prisoners better then they treat their occupied territory civilians.

I am well aware of all your facts.

And the notion that a) the average Israeli child (even near Gaza Strip) has it a fraction as bad as a Gazan child and b) that civilian casualties on both sides are equal; are both completely false and incredibly innacurate. Where is your unbiased proof of these?

And I am sorry. But you are an IDF (Israeli Defence Force) soldier. There is no one less bias in the world then you (outside of the Gazan Palestinians).
Whereas I am neither Jewish nor Arab nor Muslim.

I wish for peace for your people.

Have a nice day yourself.

 

[Voyeur De Jour]

Cassie84, if wanting terrorists to die is messed up, then so be it.

The Israelis are retaliating with deadly bombs and shells ... the key word is retaliating. Sucker-punching someone is dirty. Hitting back is perfectly acceptable. Go back a page and look at the cartoon that MiGHTyDUCK posted. It's so simple, even a pacifist could figure it out.

Perhaps none of these rules apply to you where you live (Candyland, apparently) but in the real world it's defend-yourself or get killed. It should be obvious that I only have hatred for those that kill innocents. But you don't have to see that if you don't want to. You can believe anything you want.

LBP 76, your logic is faulty. Extermination implies 100% elimination. I advocated nothing near that even when accepting your Gaza Strip population numbers. (I understood my Palestinian figure was probably world-wide).

If every terrorist (Palestinian or other) that helped erect a launch tube was suddenly struck dead, that would be perfectly fine (even preferable) by me. That number of individuals may be pretty large but (hopefully) that's not 100% of the Palestinians. For the record, I did not quantify the number beyond 2,000 ... which is (unfortunately) probably a conservative estimate of bad apples in that particular barrel.

Same goes for every terrorist that plants an IED in Iraq or Afghanistan that has a chance of killing or wounding an American soldier there. I wish they would blow up in their faces as they are being placed. You may disagree with me ... but I AM consistent: I don't like the bad guys.

 

[LBP 76]

Cassie84, if wanting terrorists to die is messed up, then so be it.

The Israelis are retaliating with deadly bombs and shells ... the key word is retaliating.

According to the U.N., Israel has been denying the Palestinians adequate food and medical supplies long before the Palestinians started rocket attacks again.

LBP 76, your logic is faulty.

So is, unfortunately, you sense of honor, your understanding of right and wrong and your general knowledge of the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

 

[jamrak]

Since they still continue their operation, I start to think that if every palestinian rocket launched towards Israel has such a consequenses, they will think twice before doing it.

I know that war is brutal, and there are always civilian victims. But the majority of palestinians support Hamas, and in fact they all support their hatred towards Israel. Even if they do not carry a gun themselves.

Climate of impunity is extremely wrong. Hamas launch their quassam rockets as if it was their non-derogable right. They are getting more impudent and assured if there is no response. Sometimes you need to kick a bold-faced asshole in the jaw to make him understand that he is over the edge. Though it is not humanely, but humanist approach is applicable only for those, who are at the same level of development and is intelligent enough to understand it. Some creatures understand only brutal force, you can't argue with that wheter you like it or now. It is like a conversation with drunken hooligan - he won't listen to your clever arguments in the pub. And what arguments can you use, if he says that he fucked your mother in the ass, and going to repeat it with you right now? If you do not pay attention on such like verbal insults, next step from this guy will be physical. And the more silent you are, the more brave he will become.

The same is with Hamas and Israel. They know about their rockets, and places where they are produced, they know about their "secret" tunnels for illegal traffic, they know about their leaders, but accroding to humane ideals Israel needs to shut up and wait for the next rocket to fly in their territory? :dunno:

I do not understand that logic. Hamas/palestine act like they have the exclusive right for using force. Their attacks are legal, justified and go without saying, but when they recieve a response, they make innocent face and appeal for humane values blah blah blah.

WHAT THE FUCK DO THEY EXPECT?!

I remember the same question in the thread about guys teasing cops, and after that crying cuz tazer was used against them. Is Hamas a stupid teenager? Do not they know the simple interrelation - if you tease a tiger it will lose its temper? Or do they think that "Israel is not a stupid tiger, it is 21 century, people are not angry animals, they do not use force... So we can fuck them how we want"

I do not respect this way of thinking. It is very comfortable position - to demand from anybody else to be intelligent and peacefull angels with humane values, but at the same time afford yourself to act like an animal. If you act like an animal (launch rockets, use force, use suicide tettorists etc) you should be ready to be treated like an animal (be bombed, be killed, suffer etc).

What I think is that Hamas is guilty. They make Israel to prove them that Israel is a tiger. They prove that they are animals, who understand the laws of animal world only. They get what they need: brutal force in response. Every step they make and every word they say only proves that they can understand only this language. And if every palestinian attack leaded to such a big and violent response from Israel, palestinians would be much more calm and mousy.

But, which is the most sad part of it, Israel is not ready to act this way down-the-line. They will stop. And they will not respond next time in such a strong manner. And this is too bad for them, cuz it will be like inoculation for Hamas: not destroyed completely they just get stronger and be ready in future for more attacks.

I think that Israel needs to be more consistent if they want to make Hamas to shut the fuck up. Every launched rocket from Gaza = military operation with heavy bombings. To make Hamas fighters understand: extra-hyper-violent-response is as sure as fate. And if it will be unfailingly, they be affraid to touch Israel. Yes, simple fear. Hamas needs to be affraid, and if some crazy suicide bombers do not give a heck about themselves, they should be affraid of civilan victims in their country, about the members of their families, friends etc who could die during response from Israel. Fear works.

 

[Facetious]

I'd be most curious to see your fact based, source material for this 'understanding'.

There's ample sources, just go with "Martyrs" + "Palestinians" + Search and let go of all preconceptions for about 5 - 10 - 15 minutes and you might . . . ah, never mind. I'll leave it there., I'm not particularly emotionally invested in this thread.

 

[mpp318]

One of the great ironies inherent to this conflict is that in the aftermath of World War I Chaim Weizmann, speaking for Jewish Nationalism, and Prince Faisel, speaking for Arab Nationalism, both made a good faith attempt to negotiate with one another and come to some sort of compromise concerning the issues of relocation, nationalism and sovereignty. The writer who pointed out that, at the time, Palestine was relatively empty, is correct. In fact, Faisel and Weizmann essentially agreed on the broad concept that Jewish immigration to Palestine would be economically and socially progressive for the region, provided that France gave up her mandate for Syria so that Arabs could have their sovereignty as well. France did not want to give up Syria because the British did not want to give up Mesopotamia (they had recently discovered oil there). The Zionists were therefore put in the impossible position of having their dream - a Jewish homeland - placed at odds with the Arab dream - the end of European imperialism. The fact that France and Britian evaluated the situation with their own selfish interests in mind was reflective of a general Western contempt for both Judaism and Islam (something which continues to this day). This is the sad truth - Jewish Nationalists and Arab Nationalists were, at least before World War II, prepared to compromise provided Europe could get her obstinant, violent hand out of the way.

 

[Cassie84]

I'm done with this thread. It's pointless to keep arguing, some of you see things a certain way and so do I. Lets just leave it at that.

Cassie.

 

[Friday on my mind]

According to the U.N., Israel has been denying the Palestinians adequate food and medical supplies long before the Palestinians started rocket attacks again.


So is, unfortunately, you sense of honor, your understanding of right and wrong and your general knowledge of the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

I give you credit for trying LBP but the fact is some have a very narrow view and little understanding of such things and that is apparent in many of the posts here.They keep talking about good guys and bad guys as if this was just black and white with no shades of grey and not that both sides have valid claims and aspirations.
I wonder would they have denounced the jews and their supporters who used terror to agitate for the creation of Israel as people they would have liked to just all fall over dead.
And back to a situation that I am much more familiar with as again being decended from protestant Irish from Northern Ireland.The IRA(catholic Irish) was clearly a terrroist group who some of even trained in mid east terror training camps.Their goal was to make the protestants of the north live under catholic rule with all the differences that implies.Much less personal freedom and with religion being integral part of the govt and its policies.I guess I should have wished that all the members of the IRA and their supporters in Northern and southern Ireland as well as a lot of supporters they had in places like the US where a lot of the money to fund their terrorism came from were eliminated (killed).But I do not, I understand both sides I think and they both again as I said about the Israelis and the palestininans have valid issues.I would hope that the negotiations lead to a situation where both sides get what they essentially want ,catholics to be fully equal as citizens and protections for the protestants against catholic dogma being allowed to put into law as it is in southern Ireland where divorce and abortion are still prohibited.
Lastly I would say that anyone who think just more force is the answer on eithier side is mistaken.When will we ever learn that peoples who think they have right on their side and in many cases both sides feel that way will never be beaten back by force unless you are willing to incur mass killing which no one in the world is going to accept.Not in the mid east,not in Ireland.All you are doing is being part of the cycle of violence.We may not be able to stop the cycle but we are able to curtail it untill a better solution is found like the negotiations now on going in Northern Ireland.But maybe the English and the Northern Ireland protestants were wrong to begin discusions with people using terrorism seems to be the implication from the hard liners here.Or is it just dark skinned terrorists they are willing to/wish to see disapear(die in large numbers)?

 

[Voyeur De Jour]

I never said I was a scholar on the subject of the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Sure, Israel has committed crimes (at least in isolated incidents) and has rather harsh policies but too many here overlook outright acts of war by Palestinians against Israeli then blame Israel for retaliation against the presumably innocent, defenseless, downtrodden Palestinians or say they are both equally wrong ... which is laughable.

The UN is full of Arab states ... and other nations like France, etc ... that are openly anti-semetic. They have repeatedly, laughably condemned Israel at every turn for the past half century. The UN is generally useless ... and that's true in this instance as well.

"... you[r] sense of honor, your understanding of right and wrong [is faulty]."

Your accusations are without basis ... and desperate. :dunno:

Stop it jamrak! You are making too much sense. Pretty soon they will be calling YOU a hate criminal too! :eek:

 

[mpp318]

In any case, I think the words of General Robert E. Lee at Gettysburg come as close to crystalizing the problem - as it exists today in the minds of militants on both sides of the border - as can be had.
"I am here, the enemy is there. Either I will whip him or he will whip me."

 

[Voyeur De Jour]

"They keep talking about good guys and bad guys as if this was just black and white with no shades of grey."

On one hand, I can agree with the 'shades of grey' point ... but all too often, that leads to inaction where we all try to agree on a perfect solution.

Well, this thread shows how hard it is to get everyone to agree ... but we probably agree there is no perfect solution.

So what's left? What course of action to take? More inaction?

Thus, the abysmal record of the United Nations.

Were the Americans in WWII wrong to firebomb Japanese cities and finish off a couple of them with nuclear bombs? What about the English fire raids against Germany? Debating these ideas after that fact may be worthwhile ... but we knew that Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan were evil and needed to be utterly defeated. That necessitated some pretty gruesome courses of action.

Sometimes you have to look and see a very dark grey and treated as though it was solidly black. Likewise, the guys with the really light grey hats are probably the ones you should side with, imperfections and all.