Israeli Attacks Gaza Strip, Killing 200+

[filetfoiegras]

My concerns lay with the resulting change in the price of gold and oil.
But that was yesterday.

Today, it was GMAC AGAIN.
Shot the Dow up almost 185 points.

Should have bought into that Small Cap Index fund yesterday like I planned, but if we can get a few bad days in a row it will be back where I want it or better.

Perhaps everything is baked into the cake so Q1 won't be that bad?

Thoughts?

 

[DervishD]

@ Voyeur De Jour:
So what exactly makes the Israeli's the good guys in your book? Is it ok for them to occupy the palestinians and blockade them tus plummiting an entire nation into poverty and hunger?

And you say the Palestinians are animals and are acting out of hatred. First of all, that's a nice way to generalize (and racist at that) and secondly, The PLO never got them the freedom it promised them and they so desperately want so yes, they turned to Hamas. They're being occupied for decades so they're grasping at straws. Most of the Palestinians are ordinary everyday but desperate people who just want a country they can call home. What would you do if you have no country you can call home and are being occupied by an enemy that shows no intent of ever leaving?

Mind you, I'm not saying that what they're doing is right but Israel isn't right either. Even tho they were also driven out at one point in time and have teturned just like the palestinians have also been in the past it doesn't give them the right to occupy them. Israel is what it is, an occupying force and it needs to be held equally accountable in this conflict wich it isn't.

 

[LBP 76]

My concerns lay with the resulting change in the price of gold and oil.
But that was yesterday.

Today, it was GMAC AGAIN.
Shot the Dow up almost 185 points.

Should have bought into that Small Cap Index fund yesterday like I planned, but if we can get a few bad days in a row it will be back where I want it or better.

Perhaps everything is baked into the cake so Q1 won't be that bad?

Thoughts?

Very interesting, but I think there are economic threads for your discussion. And if there isn't, why not start one? I'll post in it.

 

[Philbert]

My apologies to the members with their heads safely put where the sun doesn't shine...for those who care more for facts than conjecture:


Arabs 19.7% of Israeli population

Islam 83% (mostly Sunni), Christianity 8.5% and Druzism 8.3%

The country’s population stands at 7,337,000, according to figures released by the Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS). Some 5,542,000 of the population (75.5 percent) are Jewish Israelis, 1,477,000 (20.1%) are Israeli Arabs and the remaining 318,000 (4.4%) are immigrants and their offspring who are not registered as Jews by the Interior Ministry, including some 200,000 foreign workers.


Haifa Year of Jewish settlement Number of Residents1948 /2003
Veteran 98,600 270,500
Jerusalem
Veteran
84,000 705,000
Petah Tikva
1878 21,900 174,300

Zikhron Ya'akov
1882 1,900 15,000

Rosh Pina
1882 350 2,300

Rishon LeZiyyon
1882 11,100 217,500
Mazkeret Batya
1883 400 7,600
Nes Ziyyona
1883 2,300 26,500
Gedera
1884 1,000 12,600
Hadera
1890 11,800 75,000
Rehovot
1890 12,500 100,300
Tel Aviv-Jaffa
1909 248,500 371,500
Ramat Gan
1921 17,200 126,800
Bene Beraq
1924 9,300 139,700
Bat Yam
1926 2,300 133,900
Netanya
1929 11,600 164,800
Holon
1933 9,600 165,800
Ashkelon
1948 ---- 104,700
Beersheva
1948 ---- 183,200
Ashdod
1955 ---- 192,200

 

[Dawn]

(...)these savages (...)

"And calling the Palestinians 'animals' is disgusting ... and unnecessary rhetoric. This is the kinda crap that is completely negative and explains why this crap is still going on."

No. This kind of crap is going on because the Palestinians are acting like animals ... they are perpetually violent. Actually, using that word is an insult to animals like domesticated pets which are actually able to behave themselves most of the time.

When the Palestinians start acting civilized my 'unnecessary rhetoric' will cease. Sorry ... but I just call 'em like I see 'em. :wave:

You no longer deserve any respect in this discussion...

Idiots never learn and thats why History repeat itself. Nazis called Jews animals... and now Jews are calling Arab animals. Same fucked up minding that deserve no respect at all.

So go for it, follow your logic, and exterminate them. All of them, regardless of civilians and Hamas members. Just exteriminate them all like animals...

Congratulations.

 

[Fake Boobs]

Agree with Dawn

 

[Philbert]

You no longer deserve any respect in this discussion...

Idiots never learn and thats why History repeat itself. Nazis called Jews animals... and now Jews are calling Arab animals. Same fucked up minding that deserve no respect at all.

So go for it, follow your logic, and exterminate them. All of them, regardless of civilians and Hamas members. Just exteriminate them all like animals...

Congratulations.

Where did anyone Jewish call Palestinians "animals"?

You deserve no respect for equating mass extermination of a civilian population, and war against terrorist fighters operating among the civilian population.
No stretch of the liberal mindset can equate cattle cars full of peaceful mothers, babies, teens, and fathers sent to death camps for the crime of being Jewish, to responding to years of bus bombings, cafe bombings, home invasions with babies murderd as parents watched, too wounded to do anything, and various other violent actions that caused the Palestinian areas to be cut off and closed to worker traffic.

What is your damage?:dunno:

 

[Dawn]

Where did anyone Jewish call Palestinians "animals"?

Just read the whole thread.

If you don't understand why i compare a mindset to another, well, i don't think that even with explanations you will.

There have been as much anti-semitic rhetoric (that have been adressed by many members) than anti-arab rhetoric (that have also been adressed by many members) in this thread.

The day the fanatics, the radicals and the racists of both sides will be shut down, that day maybe a solution might arise in Israel.

 

[LBP 76]

Great posts Dawn.


And Philbert?

You are forgetting the 4,000,000 'Arabs' in the occupied territories that are, according to outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, part of Israel.

Add them to your totals (plus add in the Palestinians far higher birth rates them Jewish Israelis) and the Jewish Israeli is or soon will be in the minority.

 

[Friday on my mind]

Great posts Dawn.


And Philbert?

You are forgetting the 4,000,000 'Arabs' in the occupied territories that are, according to outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, part of Israel.

Add them to your totals (plus add in the Palestinians far higher birth rates them Jewish Israelis) and the Jewin Israel is or soon will be in the minority.

The point about the trends of birth rates is an important one as well as the amount of arab palestinians already contained in Israel.Just time itself and the demographic changes mean that a majority of the populace in the future will not be "jewish".These people better learn to live together and adjust to the new reality thats coming or they should expect violence to continue and escalate.
Really reminds me of Northern Ireland where the protestants who were once much more the majority have had the same thing happen with the catholics having higher birth rates to the point where it is almost 50-50 divided.It looks like for the most part Northern Ireland is now on a peacefull path to deal with that transistion.And I assure you as someone descended form protestants from Northern Ireland there are a lot of people not thrilled with the changes that they see coming.But the consensus is I think they need to deal with the reality of it and try to make accomadations with each other.

 

[Dawn]

Just to be sure im not misunderstanded regarding Isreal and jewish people...

I have a lot of sympathy towards jewish people. I consider all the anti-semitic ideologies that give birth to the extermination camps to be the worste thing mankind have seen in 20th century. Something like that should never happend again. The mindset that can create the setting for those events should be adressed on sight by all means necessary to stop them.

The creation of Isreal was, is and will forever be a good thing. Something that had to be done.

Yet, it's not a reason to support all the actions of the Israel governement. I'm critic toward Israel like i am toward the USA, Russia, Canada, France or any other country.

I'm just against the solution choosen by Isreal to face the Hamas constant harrasment and menace.

I'm just against anyone with a mindset which leads to call any human groups "animals". Anyone that can have the proper mindset to create events we don't want to ever happend again.

I'm not disregarding the victims of Hamas terrorists attacks. The poor civilians hitten by that have all my sympathies. I'm sensible, i have empathy for their pain. I just have as much sensibility, sympathy and empathy for the poor civilians citizens mourning their lost in Isreal bombardments.

I'm in favor of citizens of both sides. And against the racists, the radicals and the fanatics of both sides.

You want to label me anti-jewish? Or anti-arab? Go for it. I'm indeed against both camps who are choosing the radical way to face the whole situation since pre-1948. Or i'm indeed in favor of both camps who have choosen the civilized way to face the whole situation since pre-1948.

In my opinion, in the support of a civilized and peacefull Isreal where arabs and jews live together (or as tolerant neighboor nations), retaliation doesnt help at all.

Throw tomatoes, names or whatever you like in my direction but i will never support the bombing of palestinians.

 

[Dawn]

Really reminds me of Northern Ireland where the protestants who were once much more the majority have had the same thing happen with the catholics having higher birth rates to the point where it is almost 50-50 divided.It looks like for the most part Northern Ireland is now on a peacefull path to deal with that transistion.And I assure you as someone descended form protestants from Northern Ireland there are a lot of people not thrilled with the changes that they see coming.But the consensus is I think they need to deal with the reality of it and try to make accomadations with each other.

Again, dear Friday, you are right on the nail in my opinion :thumbsup:

 

[guest111]

"Israel has denied them with resources (even basic medicals needs) for years."

Yet Hamas has managed to build a LOT of rockets and launch them at Israel ... last count was 3,000 in the past year, I think. That's nearly 10 per day. Just think if these savages redirected those efforts at building a peaceful future for themselves? Medical facilities, farms, housing, etc ...

Lets stop right here.


3,000 last year (you THINK), Really? Where did you pull that number out of?

Even the most pro-Israel sources wouldn't even estimate anywhere near that.

They do. It's called building business, housing and other infrastructure to better their lives ... but they are a sick, death-cult of a people who exist only to hate and destroy. If the attacks ceased, the retaliation would cease. The Israelis never attack out of boredom and pure hatred ... but Hamas does everyday."

You are racist as hell..you act like its embedded into their blood.
Where does this money to create that come from?... when blockades keep them from having basic needs. They don't have solidarity, they live under Israeli rule.

Maybe you'd be able to watch your entire culture be decimated and become dispossessed of the homes and land that your parents and their parents and so on have been living in... but it should not be a surprise that most people will only take so much abuse and loss before they feel they have no other choice but to resist. They need other options..

What do you think of the blockades that have been preventing 80% of the supplies sent/needed for Gaza residents to survive (fuel, medical supplies, clean drinking water, food, physicians, etc.), particularly over the past 2 years? Not to mention the giant wall And preventing the injured from seeking medical attention elsewhere? The amount of deaths is far more on the side of the Palestinians then it ever was on the other side.

Would you not resist if you were raised a Palestinian? would you just sit and see your land being taken and being fenced and walled off? would you take the blockades with a smile?

Am I supporting Hamas? Ofcourse not, I just dont think its as simple as you put it to be...

The fact that Israel is occupying the west bank and the Gaza Strip(and also the building of the walls) is against international law. And this alone is a obstacle for a peace settlement. And this isn't just my opinion. Its the opinion of the UN. Israel stands in violation of more UN resolutions then any other county.

"This issue is so complex, with negatives and deep hate on both sides, to really even start to get into here. And none of you have even scratched the surface."

Thank you ... Your condescension is very much appreciated."

Im not being condescending. That wasnt my intention. Are we going to go back and analyze the history of it since the early 1900s? I doubt. Hell we could even go back and analyze it since 8,000 B.C. It would be still very relevant.

Is it not a complex issue? We should even start to discuss the Fatah and Hamas Conflict and the differences among the Israelis if we are going to properly discuss this....its all relevant to what has happened the past few days..

Its a can of worms, you cant argue with me on this one..

 

[LBP 76]

By far the most common Palestinian 'rocket' fired has been the Qassam. There have been just over 3,000 fired since 2001.

They are incredibly crude. Just metal tubes with small amounts of TNT and homemade 'fuel'.
They are unguided and have a range of under 10 kilometres.

Hamas is stupid and cowardly to fire them. Especially idiotic considering Israel has an unwritten rule to kill at least 10 Palestinian's for every Israeli that Hamas kills (though this time Israel is going WAY over their quota).

If Hamas ever stop using their hate for brain cells, they could vastly improve their peoples standard of living.

But they CANNOT win like this.

They must stop giving Israel an excuse to mistreat and starve them. Take the high road, learn patience and Israel will have to give them their freedom.

And 'Palestine' (both Arab and Israeli) will finally know peace.

 

[guest111]

Great posts Dawn.


And Philbert?

You are forgetting the 4,000,000 'Arabs' in the occupied territories that are, according to outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, part of Israel.

Add them to your totals (plus add in the Palestinians far higher birth rates them Jewish Israelis) and the Jewish Israeli is or soon will be in the minority.

That's also debatable. He is basing that from interpretation of documents that are thousands of years old. And a lot of that is based on what "theory". I think its a little bit more complicated then what he said.
This all depends on what theory of Israel's origin you subscribe to, and at this point it's all pretty much theory.
http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/mosesone.htm


If we are going to discuss population in Israel we need to mention the Arab refugees that have been placed in Gaza and West Bank and in other various countries. And the fact that many (not all) of the Jewish Israelis have migrated there since the start of the 1900's. Many of them do not have a blood line there that can go back past 3 or 4 generations.

Here is a link about the camps.
http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/camp-profiles.html


http://www.un.org/unrwa/publications/index.html

4,618,141 REGISTERED refugees from this agency alone.

Please read some of the things on that site.

 

[guest111]

You guys talk like Hamas has existed since or before 1967.

How did Israel get that land? Please answer this question. How? Where THEY peaceful?

Not really.

Hamas has rockets, and Israel has F-16I, Tanks, and Attack Helicopters.

Nobody here is even mentioning the fact that both sides of the violence is based off revenge.

Like Israel hasn't been at all excessive, and haven't at all killed civilians by assassination attempts.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2007/05/2008525142749318436.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1258187.stm
http://www0.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=8060&Cr=middle&Cr1=east

Im not saying Hamas is F---ed up, they are. But like I said YOU MUST GIVE PEOPLE MORE OPTIONS.

Is 1 Israeli, worth killing 10 Palestinians or 300 for that matter????

I dont think so....This is a human problem..

I have said since my first post. They are both to blame..


(anyways, im getting off now. I'll check this out later)

 

[guest111]

But they CANNOT win like this.

They must stop giving Israel an excuse to mistreat and starve them. Take the high road, learn patience and Israel will have to give them their freedom.

You act like they have always treated them good, Or they have just started this. That is a pretty simple way to put the situation in Gaza.

Its like when a older bigger brother, beats up on his little brother. Whos should take the high road? The one with the less power, or the bigger one?

Israel is the more powerful, and wealthy country. They have powerful allies. In my opinion, they have to take the high road. It starts with them.

You think the rocket attacks has anything to do with the recent food crisis there

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...nk-of-serious-food-crisis-says-un-819731.html

All im saying is look at the situation and the mindset of Gaza. Its more then about just them.



What do you think will happen if they invade Gaza (which has been being discussed)? Do you think this will create a peaceful situation?? No potential to more violence and death...

 

[guest111]

All im saying is look at the situation and the mindset of Gaza. Its more then about just them. Im not supporting what their doing, im just saying look a the situation, look at the past, look at how it begun..

Overall, this issue has no end in sight, especially if they take the Gaza strip.
The violence and hate is embedded in this conflict, and its is just continuous. Back and forth....

The (mainly religious) fanatics and militant groups on both sides need to take a step back so peace can start Killing (and starving) all the Palestinians or the Israelis is not the answer...I know this...Some times other data gets in the way




its just goes on..
Rockets and mortars into Israel as revenge for Israel's revenge which was revenge for...
If any region on earth truly needed a world intervention of an unified police force designed to stop violence on both sides then this is it...........

 

[LBP 76]

You act like they have always treated them good, Or they have just started this. That is a pretty simple way to put the situation in Gaza.

Where did I say that?

You think the rocket attacks has anything to do with the recent food crisis there

Yes. It gives Israel an excuse, albeit a pathetic one, to starve Hamas.

All im saying is look at the situation and the mindset of Gaza. Its more then about just them.

Where did I say it isn't?

Look, I have given up on Israel for now. They were the victims decades ago. Now their the bullies. They are committing atrocities against the Palestinian's by denying them food and rights.
But they will not change. They are too rich and powerful. It is the innocent Palestinian civilians (outside of Hamas) that worry me. They have to convince Hamas to stop this or Israel will never let up.

 

[guest111]

Where exactly did I say that?
Yes. It gives Israel an excuse, albeit a pathetic one, to starve Hamas.
Once again, where exactly did I say it isn't?

Look, I have given up on Israel for now. They were the victims decades ago. Now their the bullies. They are committing atrocities against the Palestinian's by denying them food and rights.
But they will not change. They are too rich and powerful. It is the innocent Palestinian civilians (outside of Hamas) that worry me. They have to convince Hamas to stop this or Israel will never let up.

See, that's my point, it will never change if Israel doesn't.(yeah i know thats not what you said, but hear me out)
Like you said, they are rich and powerful. They HAVE the ability to change. I dont know if the same can be said about the Palestinians, especially given their situation....And the amount of inner conflicts that are involved...
Israel is also legitimizing Hamas (amongst certain people) with the way they treat the Palestinians, and the way they use their force.

Hamas was elected by the people, and from what i have heard they have tried to do some good in Gaza, like offering founding of health clubs clinics, blood banks, day care, medical treatment, meals and youth clubs...etc. Maybe if they didnt lack these, Hamas wouldnt be so popular amongst the people.


The Fact that they elected them, makes me think there's more to in then we know.. I dont think the civilians are stupid.

But I agree, The civilians are the ones who suffer.


And I wasnt really directing these comments towards you. Im just trying to bring in some balance (well sort of) Im trying to bring other things to people attention..Even in the United States media they are mostly covering it poorly. They are giving Israels point of view(which is needed but..). But they have barely touched on the Palestinians...
---

UN called for cease fire

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7804051.stm

to other articles (yes i know what i just said about US's media)
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/28/gaza.humanitarian/index.html

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n01/roy_01_.html


and like i said..

its just goes on..
Rockets and mortars into Israel as revenge for Israel's revenge which was revenge for...
If any region on earth truly needed a world intervention of an unified police force designed to stop violence on both sides then this is it...........