Is abortion murder?

[Marlo Manson]

If only life were as simple as this outlook suggests.If a woman doesn't wish to become pregnant then that's easy for her to arrange.But once a child is on the way there are other interested parties.Husbands and babies have rights too and all things being equal the child's should come first as it can't speak for itself.

Ok here where it gets all drawn out and complicated. The Man can plead with the woman to have his baby, she is NOT bound by LAW or mandated by the rule of LIFE too have that baby, NO matter how bad the father wants its child, Unfortunately he CAN'T and SHOULDN'T have ANY right too force a woman too have his baby, and IMO a Fetus/Unborn has NO FEELING, NO sensation, and NO Knowledge of its own existence, therefore terminating the woman's pregnancy is just relieving her of pregnancy, the child doesn't KNOW, FEEL, or for that matter EXPERIENCE any PAIN inside the mothers womb cuz its NOT a life yet, life doesn't start until the fetus has exited a mothers womb and the baby is breathing on its own. :2 cents:

nice post, but that really doesnt argue the fact on whether its murder or not, just the womans rights
murder is : the act of killing with intent.
so although the word and thought is ugly, it is what it is.

Again, its a woman's body, she should not be forced to carry a baby FULL term, until the baby is outside of the womb IMO there is NO life. There is no scientific evidence or proof that a Fetus/Unborn has any feelings, sensation, or Knowledge of its own existence therefore, terminating the woman's pregnancy is just relieving her of being pregnant, the FETUS/UNBORN doesn't know, feel, or for that matter experience any pain inside the mothers womb. Therefore how can that be considered murder?

 

[Will E Worm]

what about rape victumes or kids that have a rather bad birth defect. like half a skull or just something you know the kid will suffer from.

I said it is murder. :hatsoff:

 

[ChefChiTown]

Even though I've posted in this thread, I still haven't addressed my personal opinion on the matter at hand. Is abortion murder? Technically, abortion is murder. But, on the other hand, abortion isn't murder.

Here is the exact defintion of murder:

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: \ˈmər-dər\
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Anglo-French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/murder

Murder is the unlawful killing of a person. So, let's take a step back for a moment and look at this from an unopinionated point of view, focusing on the two bolded words: UNLAWFUL and PERSON.

UNLAWFUL:
Abortion is legal in the United States. The exact stipulations vary from state to state, but abortion, as a whole, is legal in the US. Since murder refers to the unlawful killing of a person, then, in a legal sense, abortion is not murder.

Now, there are situations in which a person's abortion can be considered illegal. Those situations will be defined by various stipulations which vary from state to state, such as term limitations, who and where the abortion is performed and the method of abortion that is used to terminate the pregnancy. If strict guidelines aren't followed, then certain cases of abortion can be deemed illegal. In those cases, when the abortion isn't legally performed, which makes it an unlawful act, then it is murder.

PERSON:
When does a person become a person? Is it when they are born? When they reach their first birthday? In the 2nd trimester? At the moment of conception?

:dunno:

The truth is...nobody knows.

Everybody has their own opinion as to when a person becomes a person. But, just for argument's sake, let's assume that a person becomes a person the moment that they are conceived; the exact moment that sperm reaches egg.

When human sperm reaches a human egg, that is (for some) considered to be the exact beginning of human life. So, if that's the case, then why is it that when a drop of water reaches a sunflower seed that is buried underground, people still refer to it as a seed and not a sunflower? The moment that the drop of water reaches the seed is no different than the moment that sperm reaches egg; it's the beginning of life. Yet, it is only in humans that we consider that moment to be an exact, definitive instance to when life begins. At that moment, a fertilized egg is a human being, but a fertilized sunflower seed is still just a seed and not yet a sunflower.

Moving forward...

As time goes by, and that fertilized egg begins to develop into a fetus, that fetus (which is not a fully developed human being) is still considered a human being. But, as the watered sunflower seed begins to develop into a youthful sprout, that sprout (which is not a fully developed sunflower) is not yet considered a sunflower; it is considered a seedling. So, even though the two share the exact stage of development, it is only in humans that we consider that stage of development to be an illustration of fully developed life. At that moment, a slightly developed egg is a human being, but a slightly developed sunflower seed is still just a seedling and not yet a sunflower.

Obviously, one could continue to make comparisons between the two all the way through the moments of the child's birth and the flower's bloom, but I think the point is made.

Since nobody knows when a person becomes a person, then how can abortion be considered legal? Or illegal? If a person isn't a person at the moment of conception (for example), then an abortion - whether it is legally performed or not - would never be murder, as it is not an unlawful killing of a person. Or, if a person isn't a person at the end of the 1st trimester...or at the end of the 2nd...or at the end of the 3rd. The point is, nobody knows when a person becomes a person, so there can never be a complete agreement on whether or not abortion is murder.

Personally, it is such a gray area and nobody will ever come to a conclusion that will please everybody's morals and/or points of view. There is no black and white when it comes to abortion; ever. There is only gray.

Another shortsighted statement. Taking responsibility can also be sparing a child from a life of suffering. In some cases abortion is the humane and right thing to do.

Exactly. There's always a gray area when it comes to abortion, which is exactly why it always has been, and always will be, the most controversial subject in the entire world. There is no 100% right and there is no 100% wrong. It's all a matter of situation.

 

[mrtrebus]

No it is not murder. 100% true.
A fetus is not a person. FACT.

 

[Will E Worm]

No it is not murder. 100% true.
A fetus is not a person. FACT.

Fetus means little one, or child.

So, wrong again. :hatsoff:

 

[meesterperfect]

Ok here where it gets all drawn out and complicated. The Man can plead with the woman to have his baby, she is NOT bound by LAW or mandated by the rule of LIFE too have that baby, NO matter how bad the father wants its child, Unfortunately he CAN'T and SHOULDN'T have ANY right too force a woman too have his baby, and IMO a Fetus/Unborn has NO FEELING, NO sensation, and NO Knowledge of its own existence, therefore terminating the woman's pregnancy is just relieving her of pregnancy, the child doesn't KNOW, FEEL, or for that matter EXPERIENCE any PAIN inside the mothers womb cuz its NOT a life yet, life doesn't start until the fetus has exited a mothers womb and the baby is breathing on its own. :2 cents:




Again, its a woman's body, she should not be forced to carry a baby FULL term, until the baby is outside of the womb IMO there is NO life. There is no scientific evidence or proof that a Fetus/Unborn has any feelings, sensation, or Knowledge of its own existence therefore, terminating the woman's pregnancy is just relieving her of being pregnant, the FETUS/UNBORN doesn't know, feel, or for that matter experience any pain inside the mothers womb. Therefore how can that be considered murder?

marlo i'm not arguing about a womans right, i accept it.
but what you just said regarding "life" i gotta disagree with.
so the day before the baby is born its not a life?
thats what you just said right?
also are you saying that if you stick a metal object into a say 4 to 9 month old babys skull and rip out its brain it feels nothing?
thats just ridiculous, thats like saying the nervous system doesnt function until the baby breathes its first breath outside the womb, and thats simply not true.
its cruel, and why is it too much to ask of american women that if your gonna abort do it at a reasonably early stage, if not, deal with it.
the usual response is "its her body, she can do what she wants"
but its not her body, its a baby or fetus or whatever you want to call it.


as far as the word murder, in a legal sense it is not, however a recent case where a child shot and killed a pregnant woman he was charged with 2 counts of murder.
sounds like having cake and eating it too on that one.

so legally its not murder, but by the true definition of murder it is, killing with intent, and people who have or are pro abortion should accept this.
i do.

it is a living being, a life,its got a heart, its beating, its location at the moment be it the womb or the moon is meaningless.

so accept it, if you have an abortion you are killing a life, its part of the consequences the mother must live with.
sad but true.

 

[mrtrebus]

marlo i'm not arguing about a womans right, i accept it.
but what you just said regarding "life" i gotta disagree with.
so the day before the baby is born its not a life?
thats what you just said right?
also are you saying that if you stick a metal object into a say 4 to 9 month old babys skull and rip out its brain it feels nothing?
thats just ridiculous, thats like saying the nervous system doesnt function until the baby breathes its first breath outside the womb, and that simply not true.
as far as the word murder, in a legal sense it is not, however a recent case where a child shot and killed a pregnant woman he was charged with 2 counts of murder.
sounds like having cake and eating it too on that one.

so legally its not murder, but by the true definition of murder it is, killing with intent, and people who have or are pro abortion should accept this.
i do.
it is a living being, a life,its got a heart, its beating, its location at the moment be it the womb or the moon is meaningless.

Ok its a life. So what. The woman has the right to abort the child. Life ain't all sunshine & rainbows its a tough old world out there, a world where people have to make tough decisions.

 

[Will E Worm]

Ok its a life. So what. The woman has the right to abort the child. Life ain't all sunshine & rainbows its a tough old world out there, a world where people have to make tough decisions.

Well, you finally admit it. :hatsoff: I guess it's fine for a man to murder his child or wife? Fair is fair. :tongue:

Why can you murder a child, but if you ask a veterinarian if they will murder unborn dogs or what ever they are not allowed?

Hmmm...

 

[meesterperfect]

Ok its a life. So what. The woman has the right to abort the child. Life ain't all sunshine & rainbows its a tough old world out there, a world where people have to make tough decisions.

mrt , now where getting somewhere.
it is a life, ok
women do have the right to choose, i dont see that changing in the future.
it is a tough world and a tough decision, for some its tougher than for others.
you cant have your cake and it it too(i actually hate that expression)
if your gonna have an abortion you should accept the fact that you ended a life, and live with it the best you can.
thats what makes the decision so tough.
but to deny that you ended a life is just that, denial, but if that helps the mother deal with it ok.
do we agree?
thanks.
however youre wrong if you think life aint all sunshine and rainbows, and lollipops too.
heres proof

 

[mrtrebus]

mrt , now where getting somewhere.
it is a life, ok
women do have the right to choose, i dont see that changing in the future.
it is a tough world and a tough decision, for some its tougher than for others.
you cant have your cake and it it too(i actually hate that expression)
if your gonna have an abortion you should accept the fact that you ended a life, and live with it the best you can.
thats what makes the decision so tough.
but to deny that you ended a life is just that, denial.
do we agree?
thanks.

What women doesn't accept the fact that they have ended a life?!? Its not an easy choice to make or decision to live with!
Having said that, a sperm is life, a plant is life. So its not just about whether its a life or not but whether it has consciousness, is self-aware. There is a difference between a life & a person.

 

[ChefChiTown]

What women doesn't accept the fact that they have ended a life?!? Its not an easy choice to make or decision to live with!
Having said that, a sperm is life, a plant is life. So its not just about whether its a life or not but whether it has consciousness, is self-aware. There is a difference between a life & a person.

Plants are self aware though. They adapt to their environment and the changes that happen around them. If they weren't aware or didn't have some sort of consciousness, then they wouldn't be able to do so.

:2 cents:

 

[mrtrebus]

Plants are self aware though. They adapt to their environment and the changes that happen around them. If they weren't aware or didn't have some sort of consciousness, then they wouldn't be able to do so.

:2 cents:

They adapt to the environment around them yes, but I really cannot see any evidence of self awareness in plants. Where does this self-awareness/consciousness reside in plants?!?
If a plant was self-aware it would move away from the lawnmover or the sythe.

 

[BlueBalls]

Plants are self aware though. They adapt to their environment and the changes that happen around them. If they weren't aware or didn't have some sort of consciousness, then they wouldn't be able to do so.

:2 cents:

The difference being, they lack the central nervous system that makes animals . . . animals. Plant "awareness" is nothing more than changes within its chemical make-up to allow for better survival within it's habitat.

You might say that until the foetus itself actually acquires these attributes it is no more than a lower life form and thus the moral aspect of it's "death" shouldn't come into question.

 

[ChefChiTown]

They adapt to the environment around them yes, but I really cannot see any evidence of self awareness in plants. Where does this self-awareness/consciousness reside in plants?!?

Just for the record, I'm not a tree hugger or anything. I'm just using plant life as an example. Anyway...

Plants grow roots. When roots grow, the plant can sense where the roots need to go. They react to the environment around them and make the necessary adaptations in order to survive. If there are rocks in the way of a water source, the plant can sense this and will grow it's roots to move around the rock.

Plants (for the most part) need sunlight in order to survive. If something is blocking their source of sunlight, the plants can sense this and make the necessary adjustments in order to expose themselves to the sun.

Plants (for the most part) don't supersaturate themselves with water. They need water in order to survive, but if there is an exponential amount of water contained within the soil in which they grow, the plants are aware of this and don't just continue to take on water at a continuous rate.

Plants are conscious of what they need and they are aware enough to know how to get it. Just because plants don't have the human version of a brain, it doesn't mean that they can't think or don't have the capability of being consciously aware of not only themselves, but their surroundings as well. Just because plants don't have the human version of a nervous system, it doesn't mean that they don't feel. Just because plants don't live the same type of life that we humans do, it doesn't mean that they aren't alive.

:2 cents:

If a plant was self-aware it would move away from the lawnmover or the sythe.

I could say the same thing about humans. If a human was self-aware, it would move away from Louisville Slugger that was racing towards their skull.

 

[Facetious]

edit

 

[HE1FiNEARTiST]

Just for the record, I'm not a tree hugger or anything. I'm just using plant life as an example. Anyway...

Plants grow roots. When roots grow, the plant can sense where the roots need to go. They react to the environment around them and make the necessary adaptations in order to survive. If there are rocks in the way of a water source, the plant can sense this and will grow it's roots to move around the rock.

Plants (for the most part) need sunlight in order to survive. If something is blocking their source of sunlight, the plants can sense this and make the necessary adjustments in order to expose themselves to the sun.

Plants (for the most part) don't supersaturate themselves with water. They need water in order to survive, but if there is an exponential amount of water contained within the soil in which they grow, the plants are aware of this and don't just continue to take on water at a continuous rate.

Plants are conscious of what they need and they are aware enough to know how to get it. Just because plants don't have the human version of a brain, it doesn't mean that they can't think or don't have the capability of being consciously aware of not only themselves, but their surroundings as well. Just because plants don't have the human version of a nervous system, it doesn't mean that they don't feel. Just because plants don't live the same type of life that we humans do, it doesn't mean that they aren't alive.

:2 cents:



I could say the same thing about humans. If a human was self-aware, it would move away from Louisville Slugger that was racing towards their skull.

reps for you, totally agree. plants are living things, our plants react when we play ozzy :thumbsup:

 

[Icewater Jones]

We, as human beings, put so much value in life, that death is looked at as somewhat unnecessary. I believe that there are some extreme cases where abortion is just the best thing to do. Those cases, IMO, are those where it is known that a child will not live, or live for a short, painful time of existence after birth.

So often, children still in the womb are written off like bad checks. On the flip-side, some parents keep terminally ill, physically suffering children in this world, even in vegetable-like and brain dead states way longer than necessary.

Is abortion MURDER???

No. It is still considered lawful death.

Is it RIGHT???

Sometimes.

 

[meesterperfect]

chef why the hell are you talking about plants again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yes a plant is a life, a life of a plant.
bit different from that of a human no?
oh man, dude youre ok, i'm laughing thats all.
i said all i could in my last two posts, i'm gone, gotta go trim my hedges.

 

[tartanterrier]

No.The after pill is a wonderful thing :thefinger

 

[Will E Worm]

Plants...really?

No.The after pill is a wonderful thing :thefinger

I taught you better. :nono: