Fucking North Korea

[Funnyman]

A few things here. Each player has a different agenda, and plays for differing stakes.

USA: Best case scenario for the USA, is for North Korea to remain an independent nation, transition into a democracy, embrace western values, disarm nukes, and open up it's market.
But, Democrat administration, nation tired of war, heavy debts. Obama administration would like to avoid any war action without "Just Cause". So long as no shots are fired, the USA will not move, no matter what the North says or does.

Japan: Same as the USA, with the addition of not adopting an anti-Japan education like South Korea, and China. Japan would want North Korea to become like Taiwan, a west+Japan friendly democracy with a market for Japanese goods. They have a administration that leans just right of center, heavy debts, bad economy. But they are tired of being bullied, and want to build an Army as well as manufacture and export weapons, but the constitution prevents them from taking any action. If N.Korea does instigate battle, they will use the opportunity to justify building a military against China's wishes. They also would gain respect globally by becoming a war victor on the allied side, putting behind at last, their history as a war loser.

S.Korea: Best case, the North collapses, the nations are unified, allowing Korea to gain the population and land mass to build an economy that rivals Japan. Conservative-Right administration, slowing economy. Still wants to get ahead of Japan. If a shot is fired, they will attempt to bring the US into it, and hit back. After the war, they will want to annex North Korea, but in reality it's the worst thing that could happen to them because of China's agenda.

China: Best case scenario, North Korea attacks US bases in S.Korea and Japan, then surrenders to China, ending the war without China actually incurring losses.
For China, if the North could attack the US then surrender to China preventing a US occupation, they could rebuild the nation under their influence, encourage a merge with South Korea, and use the northerner vote to 'democratically' convert South+North Korea into a China friendly nation. China would get the credit, the clout, and greater influence. If North Korea could take out US, Japanese, and S.Korean assets in the region, it would be an added bonus.

Russia: Best case scenario, North Korea shuts up and goes back to being North Korea, without added influence from the US, China, or South Korea.

North Korea: Best case scenario, they take South Korea, be accepted as a Nuclear armed nation, and force recognition on the global level as a nuclear power. If that fails, they would surrender to China, to avoid having to surrender to the USA.

The precedent here is WWII-Pacific War. Japan had political issues with China over Manchuria. They fought China, but ran out of resources. To keep the war going, they brought up "Asia for Asians" as justification for liberating European colonies, to tap into resources there. When they could not win, they surrendered to the USA and avoided surrendering to China. They were able to cut defense costs and rebuild their nation by maintaining a treaty with the USA. Despite wreaking havoc across China, they ended up without Chinese influence, modernized, got democracy. Losing was a win for Japan, thanks to the cold war. North Korea may shrewdly be looking to replicate this. If they can fight a war, then surrender to China? They can get rid of the Kims, modernize, get aid, and avoid surrendering to the USA or South Korea. China would have to make surrender good for North Korea, to avoid them surrendering to the USA.

If a war happens, it will be short. The North will invade the South with their Army. China will support the North from the shadows. If the USA-S.Korea alliance gets the upper hand, China will declare war on North Korea, as a pretext for their later surrender. The North will declare unilateral surrender to China, ending the justification for US and S.Korean presence. If it gets to that point, Russia will endorse China's occupation of N.Korea. The UN will be powerless to prevent China, as China+Russia will veto any resolutions. USA will be faced with a decision, either to retreat to S.Korea, or face off with China. Under the Obama administration it is more likely the USA will retreat. The USA will lose influence in the region, China will gain.

 

[spacearrow99]

I don't think them unreasonable deductions. If you believe I'm wrong, then please say so. Most doesn't mean best. If I remember correctly then Saddam's Iraq had the 5th largest armed force in the world at the onset of GW1. They didn't fare well, did they? Looking at life in N.K. I believe it's reasonable to say that moral is low. Unless you think starvation, beatings and a F.U.D. mentality lend a lot to moral in a country. While it will limit the use of tanks, I believe that if we see conflict it will feature rotary wing a lot and air supremacy will quickly be gained and maintained by allied fixed wing.Doesn't mean either is any good. Who is to say all those troops won't just surrender in the hope of a prosperous new life in S.K.? Hoe often do you think those N.K. gunners practice? How well maintained do you think their weapons are? In a mountainous country (read limited mobility for SPAGS) who's to say how long any battery will last before counter-fire or fast air eliminates it? Even for the amout of time that it is operational, it will have difficulty striking accurately against allied targets in mountainous terrain and even then, mountainous terrain can provide a measure of cover from artillery attack. I assure you that they can be destroyed very quickly (IE bunker buster). I suspect the largest problem with their defences will be locating them in the terrain. Agreed
While you have a point, airpower can cave in the entrances to a tunnel network and anything hiding underground isn't really fighting the enemy above ground.
If the enemy dominates the battlefield above ground then they do just that; dominate the battlefield above ground.

s, you are wrong in your analysis. One reason North Korea has the largest Army in the world is to deter invasion. At the Battle of Berlin, The Red Army found out badly trained old men and boys with panzerfausts, could be very effect against Russian armor. GW1, was a great victory, but Saddam was an incompetent leader. As said, he should have forted his Army in the cities of Kuwait and Iraq. Even the Roman Legions lost battles and wars because of incompetent leadership. The moral of North Korean people is unkown at this time. Who is to say all those troops will just surrender? I been deployed to Afghanistan several times. Allied air assets will not find most North Korean artillery positions and underground installations.

 

[E-Ann-Hilden]

Do you really think China or Russia would go to war over a nut yet again running North Korea? Really? They are have so much more too lose, pretty much everything over the thought of intervening....

China, Japan and South Korea kicked off formal negotiations Tuesday on securing a free trade agreement to bind together three economies that account for around 20 percent of global gross domestic product

 

[Philbert]

Kim Il Dead.

It's like doing a "made you flinch" move on a top MMA fighter.

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

 

[Mayhem]

s, you are wrong in your analysis. One reason North Korea has the largest Army in the world is to deter invasion.

Who has ever given the impression that they want to invade NK? They don't even have light bulbs.

At the Battle of Berlin, The Red Army found out badly trained old men and boys with panzerfausts, could be very effect against Russian armor.

No they didn't. They rolled through the place, raped the women and killed anything that opposed them.

GW1, was a great victory, but Saddam was an incompetent leader.

No it wasn't. GW1 was a ridiculous defeat where we spent billions to give Saddam ten more years of megalomaniacal leadership after he pillaged Kuwait and set their oil fields on fire. If that's victory, I'd like to hear your definition of defeat.

The moral of North Korean people is unkown at this time.

How much moral do you have when you can't feed yourself or get adequate healthcare while your leader drinks high end Scotch?

Who is to say all those troops will just surrender?

I've always said that if you want to beat NK, stuff a bunch of Tomahawk missles with Chunky Soup wrapped in a wool blanket and a note that says, "There's more where this came from." Shoot the missles over the troop concentrations and wait for the front line to duke it out with the KGB battalions.....end of the war.

Allied air assets will not find most North Korean artillery positions and underground installations.

If it's underground, it's not shooting at us. And how on earth are we not finding their artillery?

 

[horn_dog]

Just like his dad....

 

[spacearrow99]

Who has ever given the impression that they want to invade NK? They don't even have light bulbs.



No they didn't. They rolled through the place, raped the women and killed anything that opposed them.



No it wasn't. GW1 was a ridiculous defeat where we spent billions to give Saddam ten more years of megalomaniacal leadership after he pillaged Kuwait and set their oil fields on fire. If that's victory, I'd like to hear your definition of defeat.



How much moral do you have when you can't feed yourself or get adequate healthcare while your leader drinks high end Scotch?



I've always said that if you want to beat NK, stuff a bunch of Tomahawk missles with Chunky Soup wrapped in a wool blanket and a note that says, "There's more where this came from." Shoot the missles over the troop concentrations and wait for the front line to duke it out with the KGB battalions.....end of the war.



If it's underground, it's not shooting at us. And how on earth are we not finding their artillery?

An invasion of North Korea, will only occur if North Korea shoots nuclear armed ICBMs or SRBMs at Japan, South Korea, or the U. S. My statement about Battle of Berlin was true. Go lookup information on the Battle of Berlin. The Middle East oil fields were saved and world economies boomed in the 1990s, and most coalition members did not support taking down Saddam regime in GW1. The Japanese and Germans were starving but still put up one hell of a fight. The Battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa are two great studies on how difficult underground fortifications are to overcome in combat. The Japanese could attack U. S. troops and escape into under ground tunnels. Artillery is hard to find, when its properly camouflaged.

 

[Mayhem]

An invasion of North Korea, will only occur if North Korea shoots nuclear armed ICBMs or SRBMs at Japan, South Korea, or the U. S. My statement about Battle of Berlin was true. Go lookup information on the Battle of Berlin. The Middle East oil fields were saved and world economies boomed in the 1990s, and most coalition members did not support taking down Saddam regime in GW1. The Japanese and Germans were starving but still put up one hell of a fight. The Battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa are two great studies on how difficult underground fortifications are to overcome in combat. The Japanese could attack U. S. troops and escape into under ground tunnels. Artillery is hard to find, when its properly camouflaged.

I have researched WWII and the Battle of Berlin since I was a teenager. At no point were the Volkssturmmann and/or Hitler Youth a factor in the battle and there is no evidence that they lengthened the Battle to any degree.

The oilfields of Kuwait were NOT saved. We literally had to use headlights at noon because the smoke from the burning wells had, in fact, turned day into night.

I understand that the Coalition decided on leaving Hussein in power. That's why/how they failed. The powers-that-were in WWII also agreed on Operation Market Garden, which was also a colossal fuck-up.

Artillery is not hard to find when it is fired. It's very easy to spot. They shoot it once, they get destroyed. It's not WWII anymore. We're a little bit better at this than we once were. I should hope so, considering all the money we spend.

 

[spacearrow99]

I have researched WWII and the Battle of Berlin since I was a teenager. At no point were the Volkssturmmann and/or Hitler Youth a factor in the battle and there is no evidence that they lengthened the Battle to any degree.

The oilfields of Kuwait were NOT saved. We literally had to use headlights at noon because the smoke from the burning wells had, in fact, turned day into night.

I understand that the Coalition decided on leaving Hussein in power. That's why/how they failed. The powers-that-were in WWII also agreed on Operation Market Garden, which was also a colossal fuck-up.

Artillery is not hard to find when it is fired. It's very easy to spot. They shoot it once, they get destroyed. It's not WWII anymore. We're a little bit better at this than we once were. I should hope so, considering all the money we spend.

The Volkssturmman and Hitler Youth did inflict heay losses on Russian Army; they were not going stop 3 combined Soviet Army Groups. Always long as Saudi oilfields were saved the production

The Saudi oilfields were saved. The Saudi Arabia and other oil producers increased their daliy capacity; they tried to makeup for the lost of the Kuwait fields while they were being repaired. The world economy would have tanked with the lost of Saudi oilfields production.

Your argument should have been that U. S. Army and Marine Corps were much larger at the time of GW1. The U.S. CENTCOM would have been in much better position of controlling any Iraq sectarian violence after the fall of Saddam.

I know much about Artillery since I was a 13 Bravo. Counter battery fire is great, but were taking about targeting thousands of North Korean, entrenched and mobile gun postions. Can you guarantee
South Korea that all the North Korean artillery be taken out before its devastates that country?

 

[Mayhem]

The Volkssturmman and Hitler Youth did inflict heay losses on Russian Army; they were not going stop 3 combined Soviet Army Groups.

You're going to have to give a source on this and define what you classify as "heavy". I would have a much easier time saying that "heavy" losses were suffered by the advancing Soviets because they were too damn reckless about it, than you do by saying that the Volkssturmann were of any effectiveness. And I think you are choosing to forget that there were plenty of regular line troops also defending Berlin.

The Saudi oilfields were saved. The Saudi Arabia and other oil producers increased their daliy capacity; they tried to makeup for the lost of the Kuwait fields while they were being repaired. The world economy would have tanked with the lost of Saudi oilfields production.

The Saudi oilfields were never in danger. Anyone who thinks that Saddam was going to advance into Saudi Arabia needs a reality check. He knew for a fact that doing so would have gotten himself crushed by his fellow Arabs in a heartbeat, and they wouldn't be anywhere near as gentlemanly about it as we Americans were. His entire strategy for invading Kuwait was to give his restive population and military something other to think about than overthrowing him. In that, he was entirely successful, as later events have shown with absolute clarity. Seriously, if you're going to recommend research to others, it would help if you did some yourself. Try reading up on the history of Iraq and the life of Saddam Hussein sometime.

Your argument should have been that U. S. Army and Marine Corps were much larger at the time of GW1. The U.S. CENTCOM would have been in much better position of controlling any Iraq sectarian violence after the fall of Saddam.

My argument, as outlined above, is that Coalition leadership blew it the same way they blew it in GW2. Mistaken assumptions by stupid people who had no business leading a military campaign that they had no understanding of.

I know much about Artillery since I was a 13 Bravo. Counter battery fire is great, but were taking about targeting thousands of North Korean, entrenched and mobile gun postions. Can you guarantee
South Korea that all the North Korean artillery be taken out before its devastates that country?

If there is ever a war in Korea, it's going to be a godawful mess and a lot of good people will die (unless the American military adopts my Chunky Soup idea). But you are talking about fighting artillery with artillery. That's nonsense. You fight artillery with airpower. B2s, Tomahawk missles, drone warfare, A-10s,......WTF do we need counterbattery fire for? Airpower vs. artillery, artillery vs. infantry and armor, and a great big amphibious landing somewhere in the Chongjin area to split their forces. Again, for someone who recommends research, I would suggest a healthy dose of Sun Tzu before planning any invasions all by your lonesome.

 

[blixie]

scary

 

[spacearrow99]

You're going to have to give a source on this and define what you classify as "heavy". I would have a much easier time saying that "heavy" losses were suffered by the advancing Soviets because they were too damn reckless about it, than you do by saying that the Volkssturmann were of any effectiveness. And I think you are choosing to forget that there were plenty of regular line troops also defending Berlin.



The Saudi oilfields were never in danger. Anyone who thinks that Saddam was going to advance into Saudi Arabia needs a reality check. He knew for a fact that doing so would have gotten himself crushed by his fellow Arabs in a heartbeat, and they wouldn't be anywhere near as gentlemanly about it as we Americans were. His entire strategy for invading Kuwait was to give his restive population and military something other to think about than overthrowing him. In that, he was entirely successful, as later events have shown with absolute clarity. Seriously, if you're going to recommend research to others, it would help if you did some yourself. Try reading up on the history of Iraq and the life of Saddam Hussein sometime.



My argument, as outlined above, is that Coalition leadership blew it the same way they blew it in GW2. Mistaken assumptions by stupid people who had no business leading a military campaign that they had no understanding of.



If there is ever a war in Korea, it's going to be a godawful mess and a lot of good people will die (unless the American military adopts my Chunky Soup idea). But you are talking about fighting artillery with artillery. That's nonsense. You fight artillery with airpower. B2s, Tomahawk missles, drone warfare, A-10s,......WTF do we need counterbattery fire for? Airpower vs. artillery, artillery vs. infantry and armor, and a great big amphibious landing somewhere in the Chongjin area to split their forces. Again, for someone who recommends research, I would suggest a healthy dose of Sun Tzu before planning any invasions all by your lonesome.

Yes, there were regular Army units, but they were about the size of the Volkssturmann and Hitler Youth. The Russians were wreckless to a degree but urban warfare is hell. Panzersfaust are very simple weapons to operate. There sources about the effectness of Volkssturmann specifically the Hitler Youth members during the Battle of Berlin.


His fellow arabs did not have military power to stop Iraq during the first Gulf War.


Counter battery fire is quicks way to target artillery North Korean positions. I know about modern warfare, so don't lecture me. And stop your nutty chunk soup comment.

 

[Mayhem]

Dude, you're the last person who needs to call someone else nutty. Turkey, Syria, Jordan and Iran didn't have the military power to take Iraq? What comic books are you reading? They all would have come unhinged if Saddam had had the temerity to invade Saudi Arabia. So no, you don't know shit about modern warfare. Or if you do, you have yet to demonstrate it in here.

 

[spacearrow99]

Dude, you're the last person who needs to call someone else nutty. Turkey, Syria, Jordan and Iran didn't have the military power to take Iraq? What comic books are you reading? They all would have come unhinged if Saddam had had the temerity to invade Saudi Arabia. So no, you don't know shit about modern warfare. Or if you do, you have yet to demonstrate it in here.

Turkey and Iran aren't Arab countries and they don't care about Saudi Arabia. Jordanian and Syrian Army were tiny compared to the Iraqi Army in 1991.

 

[spacearrow99]

Dude, you're the last person who needs to call someone else nutty. Turkey, Syria, Jordan and Iran didn't have the military power to take Iraq? What comic books are you reading? They all would have come unhinged if Saddam had had the temerity to invade Saudi Arabia. So no, you don't know shit about modern warfare. Or if you do, you have yet to demonstrate it in here.

Mayhem, I apologize to you for my nutty comment.

 

[Mayhem]

Turkey and Iran aren't Arab countries and they don't care about Saudi Arabia. Jordanian and Syrian Army were tiny compared to the Iraqi Army in 1991.

Son, you have some serious fuckin' problems that you need to address. You are so far out of reality that I'm completely unsure if I ever want to dignify you with a response anymore. Sam Fisher never got me that far, Will E. Worm never got me that far, but you are seriously toeing the line.

Once more, from the top:

Turkey and Iran aren't Arab countries and they don't care about Saudi Arabia. Jordanian and Syrian Army were tiny compared to the Iraqi Army in 1991.

Just want to make sure I got you quoted correctly for that.

Turkey is a secular state with no official state religion; the Turkish Constitution provides for freedom of religion and conscience. Islam is the dominant religion of Turkey, it exceeds 99% if secular people of Muslim background are included. Research firms suggest the actual Muslim figure is around 98% or 97%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey#Religion

Iran (i/ɪˈrɑːn/ or /aɪˈræn/; Persian: ایران‎ [ʔiˈɾɒn] ( listen)), officially the Islamic Republic of Iran

Religion in Iran is dominated by the Twelver Shia branch of Islam, which is the official state religion and to which about 90% to 95% of Iranians belong. About 4% to 8% of Iranians belong to the Sunni branch of Islam, mainly Kurds and Iran's Balochi Sunni. The remaining 2% are non-Muslim religious minorities, including Bahá'ís, Mandeans, Hindus, Yezidis, Yarsanis, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Christians. Baha'is suffer from persecution due to their religious affiliation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Religion

So OK genius, if they aren't Arab countries (meaning Muslim), would you care to explain to the class what exactly you were getting at in your above post. What kind of countries are they?

Again, I have no idea what cloud your head is on, but this is some serious weirdness. WTF happened to you that you're this stupid? You are actually telling us that ALL the countries in question "don't care" about the home of Mecca and Medina? This is what you're saying?

Don't ever say to me that I am the one that needs to research something again. This conversation has become so incredibly obtuse that I'm actually insulted by having spent this much time on you. You are squarely in the same box that Fisher resided in. And for that, you should be asking yourself some pretty fundamental questions.

 

[horn_dog]

An interesting graphic on NK's weapons http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/13/graphic-dprk-intentions/

 

[hotrod808]

I think Russia and China are using North Korea as a pawn to start a war with the U.S. If North Korea attacks, even if it's a half-ass missile launch that lands in the ocean or just barely hits land, the U.S. will retaliate through South Korea and then Russia and China will eventually join in. In a war of the U.S. vs. China AND Russia, we will definitely get our ass kicked. We can't depend on any other countries to help us out other than Japan and possibly England. The rest of Europe is in financial shambles and cannot afford to send troops to war. Maybe the French will put down their wine and cheese and take up arms to help us. Why wouldn't Israel come to our defense like we do for them?

so you even put France in front of Germany to help you in a WW3? FRANCE??? really?

 

[sean miguel]

Son, you have some serious fuckin' problems that you need to address. You are so far out of reality that I'm completely unsure if I ever want to dignify you with a response anymore. Sam Fisher never got me that far, Will E. Worm never got me that far, but you are seriously toeing the line.

Once more, from the top:


Just want to make sure I got you quoted correctly for that.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey#Religion




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Religion

So OK genius, if they aren't Arab countries (meaning Muslim), would you care to explain to the class what exactly you were getting at in your above post. What kind of countries are they?

Again, I have no idea what cloud your head is on, but this is some serious weirdness. WTF happened to you that you're this stupid? You are actually telling us that ALL the countries in question "don't care" about the home of Mecca and Medina? This is what you're saying?

Don't ever say to me that I am the one that needs to research something again. This conversation has become so incredibly obtuse that I'm actually insulted by having spent this much time on you. You are squarely in the same box that Fisher resided in. And for that, you should be asking yourself some pretty fundamental questions.

Turkey and Iran are not arab countries.

Turks are not arabs they're .. Turks. They're a distinct ethnic group originating from Mongolia. Their native language isn't arabic, it's Turkish.

Iranians are not arabs, they're Persians.

Arab does not mean muslim. 80% of the world's muslims are non-arabs. The country with the largest muslim population is not even in the middle east but in southeast asia - Indonesia, and they're definitely not arab.