^Believe me, I've had days far worse.
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Fired Today, Career Over, Possibly Marriage Too ...
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For real ??
Honestly the only i can think of thats had worse is 9/11 survivors or President Kennedy on that little car ride he took.
^^I suppose it's all relative: but yeah, I've had some really really dreadful days. Days where the phrase 'When it rains, it pours' is not just a cliché but actually quite true :eek:
Didn't end up in jail or the hospital and no one close died, so like some have said it could have been much worse.As my mother used to say if those are the biggest problems you ever have your doing ok.
Yeah, made it home without getting a railroad spike driven through his eye and was not forced to eat the diarhea of 9 crackheads. :wtf:
Why the fuck are we comparing this guy's day to a presidential assasination?
By the way, McRocket - loved your scathing commentary. You will never be accused of mincing words, and I know it's your form of "tough love". May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your doorstep.
Why the fuck are we comparing this guy's day to a presidential assasination?
By the way, McRocket - loved your scathing commentary. You will never be accused of mincing words, and I know it's your form of "tough love". May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your doorstep.
Yo Prof,
Sounds like you know that grabbing that woman was wrong, but try to understand why. What is it that caused your uncharacteristic behavior? Probably the conditioning that disrespectful porn has given you. Try Robert Jensen's "Getting Off", a straight talking book about how violent, dominant porn corrupts masculinity. (he doesn't condemn all porn)
Oops , forgot the link.
http://www.southendpress.org/2007/items/87767
Again, this guy is not preachy, just pointing out how fucked up it is to want to hurt women when we are fucking. I mean we LOVE women, right?
Sounds like you know that grabbing that woman was wrong, but try to understand why. What is it that caused your uncharacteristic behavior? Probably the conditioning that disrespectful porn has given you. Try Robert Jensen's "Getting Off", a straight talking book about how violent, dominant porn corrupts masculinity. (he doesn't condemn all porn)
Oops , forgot the link.
http://www.southendpress.org/2007/items/87767
Again, this guy is not preachy, just pointing out how fucked up it is to want to hurt women when we are fucking. I mean we LOVE women, right?
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ProfV.... "You have stepped on your dick with both feet!!"
The fact that you have felt the need to "document" your actions is one thing.... But to do it publicly here at Freeones is beyond comprehension.
If I were you, I would think about getting some professional help and possibly take a break from Freeones and concentrate on what is important in your life....
I used to consider you as one of the more balanced individuals on this board but what I have just read disturbs me greatly.
:2 cents:
The fact that you have felt the need to "document" your actions is one thing.... But to do it publicly here at Freeones is beyond comprehension.
If I were you, I would think about getting some professional help and possibly take a break from Freeones and concentrate on what is important in your life....
I used to consider you as one of the more balanced individuals on this board but what I have just read disturbs me greatly.
:2 cents:
Prof...I'm a little late here, and I read your entire story, but the thing I'm still having a difficult time grasping is exactly what you did wrong in the first place to make this woman think you were sexually harassing her? You didn't ask her to give you a BJ or to see her breasts...From the way you describe it you were answering questions or responding to comments that she made first, none of which I felt were inappropriate by your description.
The second thing is, did she report you after she left your cube area? or did someone else witness something they thought was inappropriate and turn you both in. I can't see how she would be in any type of hot water for reporting what she thought was sexual harassment. And the fact that she agreed to meet with you after this initial incident seems odd to me also. Sure, grabbing her tits and whatnot were fairly inappropriate, but I'm just perplexed about the initial part of this saga.
Either way, I'm sorry you're going through this and I hope you can find a way to resolve it one way or another. Lots of luck to you. You seem like a strong guy, so I'm sure you'll find your way.
The second thing is, did she report you after she left your cube area? or did someone else witness something they thought was inappropriate and turn you both in. I can't see how she would be in any type of hot water for reporting what she thought was sexual harassment. And the fact that she agreed to meet with you after this initial incident seems odd to me also. Sure, grabbing her tits and whatnot were fairly inappropriate, but I'm just perplexed about the initial part of this saga.
Either way, I'm sorry you're going through this and I hope you can find a way to resolve it one way or another. Lots of luck to you. You seem like a strong guy, so I'm sure you'll find your way.
Hmm....Nothing at all...
Lets see he grabbed at a woman in a sexual way.
I would and most courts in the world call that indecent assault, sexual harassment or quite a few others I could put to this.
This is again without bring up the fact he is married. Betraying the love of his wife. Who he supposed to have made vows too. Most of which he has just broken.
No one said they are innocent or never have or never will do anything in the future. What they are damning are his actions and the vows he has broken to his wife. Also for the way he basically assaulted a woman.
But then again I'd expect you to defend his actions. As they would be the exact type of thing You Might do. Judging you from your past posts on the way you act around women.
It's called respecting you fellow human beings feelings and personal space. You should wait till invited to do so. Otherwise rape would be allowed too.
Lets see he grabbed at a woman in a sexual way.
I would and most courts in the world call that indecent assault, sexual harassment or quite a few others I could put to this.
This is again without bring up the fact he is married. Betraying the love of his wife. Who he supposed to have made vows too. Most of which he has just broken.
No one said they are innocent or never have or never will do anything in the future. What they are damning are his actions and the vows he has broken to his wife. Also for the way he basically assaulted a woman.
But then again I'd expect you to defend his actions. As they would be the exact type of thing You Might do. Judging you from your past posts on the way you act around women.
It's called respecting you fellow human beings feelings and personal space. You should wait till invited to do so. Otherwise rape would be allowed too.
There you are Fox. You have just contradicted yourself :o
Yes I have damned him. But if you read why it is I danm him, for breaking his vows to his wife in front of "the good lord" :o
I damned him because what would his next step be rape?
Are you going to forgive him for that too?
As this is as good as rape. He has invaded the personal space of another person. Most likely caused her mental upset. Just because she had enjoyed his company and relaxed in front of him.
So he was judged by his actions. Like I expect and get from others when I do something is judged as wrong.
But then again the million dollar question still comes up...is it true?
Yes, unwanted sexual advances aren't cool, but you make it sound like this chick was completely innocent. Not only was she commenting on her body to him, she was not the one that complained about it and she agreed to meet with him. Maybe the Prof read it the wrong way, but shit happens and you move on.
My deepest sympathies, Prof. This whole thing is just surreal.
Hold on there, you are a very smart guy, you'll make it.
One comment though: what the hell where you thinking calling your wife and telling her how it was? YOU NEVER EVE TELL YOUR WIFE YOU COVET (find attractive, sympathetic to) ANOTHER WOMAN.
Even if you are caught red handed just lie, dude. Lie your ass off. Thats how it works
Hold on there, you are a very smart guy, you'll make it.
One comment though: what the hell where you thinking calling your wife and telling her how it was? YOU NEVER EVE TELL YOUR WIFE YOU COVET (find attractive, sympathetic to) ANOTHER WOMAN.
Even if you are caught red handed just lie, dude. Lie your ass off. Thats how it works
Re: No sympathies, no "feeling sorry" for myself ...
I think I understand your point **********, but Prof Voluptuary himself typed in this thread (and IMO, to his great credit):
He has (apparently) been open enough to give us the truth (as he sees it anyway). And we should do nothing less in return.
So as long as people are typing what they actually feel - no matter how harsh - I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
No one put a gun to his head (I assume) to type all this out here in the open. And if you are going to type things like that, you had better be prepared to get some harshness in return.
And it seems Prof Voluptuary was indeed prepared (once again, to his great credit).
And one other thing:
There are usually at least two sides to every story.
As thorough as Prof Voluptuary seems to have been in describing these events; he has described the events from his perspective only. The others involved may - or may not - see/describe things differently then he does.
Just something to consider in matters such as these (or in any matter involving two or more people) - IMO.
I think I understand your point **********, but Prof Voluptuary himself typed in this thread (and IMO, to his great credit):
He has (apparently) been open enough to give us the truth (as he sees it anyway). And we should do nothing less in return.
So as long as people are typing what they actually feel - no matter how harsh - I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
No one put a gun to his head (I assume) to type all this out here in the open. And if you are going to type things like that, you had better be prepared to get some harshness in return.
And it seems Prof Voluptuary was indeed prepared (once again, to his great credit).
And one other thing:
There are usually at least two sides to every story.
As thorough as Prof Voluptuary seems to have been in describing these events; he has described the events from his perspective only. The others involved may - or may not - see/describe things differently then he does.
Just something to consider in matters such as these (or in any matter involving two or more people) - IMO.
^Excellent post McR :thumbsup:
Clarifications and updates ...
I've avoided the board for over 2 days to get some perspective.
I now see some of you are confused, some others think I want your sympathy, etc... Here's the deal ...
1. No sympathies!
I didn't post this to get any "sympathy," I posted this to get some "advice" on the many facets of this issue, as well as document it for myself for some self-reflection. I do not "feel sorry for myself" and if you read this and got some view of that, then you really didn't read it.
I especially didn't care for this response ... (bolding added by myself)
2. Why both her and I had our contracts terminated immediately
Both the woman and I work for another company than the company we were at, we're vendors. We both had our contracts terminated, or at least "suspended." I assume this is because it's "standard policy" to terminate both parties in an "incident" when it's clearly a case of a consensual episode where others felt uncomfortable. We're also vendors and not employees, so if the client doesn't like us, the client can terminate our contract at any time without cause.
Our employers are a different story. But our employers can easily terminate us for "bad judgment" at a client, in front of a client. Again, we're not "normal employees" and things are much different than what many of you may be used to.
Now with that said, based on my conversation with the woman afterwards, while I did lose my job (or am in the process of "officially" being terminated by my company), her company is still retaining her. Her company also feels that she can get the position back at the client if she wants it, after the investigation is complete.
Frankly, I don't want to go back to that client anyway after this episode. As far as going back to my employer, I probably can't, ever, and I'll run into their employees where ever I go. That's what's bothering me most, but at the same time, this is one of those situations I created for myself, so I must live with it.
3. She e-mailed me to "close" the last "incident"
To start, she asked that I do not e-mail her back except to tell her I got it. So all I did was e-mail back, "Thank you, now I can get on with my life and learn a huge lesson."
Basically she stated that she was sorry she went to give me a hug, but that didn't explain or excuse what I did. The only rationale she could come up with for my action was that I was vunerable and just used to having my wife there to cry on. But even given that, she not only rebuked me further for calling her and confiding in her, but that I often grab my wife's breast when I went to kiss my wife -- something she didn't understand.
She concluded by saying I was a gentleman for the most part, but I needed help because I obviously have some sexual addiction that I needed to learn to control.
4. I realize I do need some help
First off, let's separate the three "stages" from one another here ...
A. Keeping it professional
I kept my eyes at eye level, did not stare below as I worked with her originally. I kept my eyes up so all I could notice was that she was fuller, but I did not let my eyes explore her further, other than her very enchanting profile above the neck.
B. The conversation at lunch
I did not wander until after being prompted several times, and I keep it professional for awhile. Unfortunately I carried that conversation into the office, which was a massive no-no. What's bothering me is that, yes, I was wrong to bring that conversation back into the office, but I'm uncertain whether it was "wrong" in the first place outside the office.
C. The 2-part screw-up
I royally screwed up here in two ways. One, I called her and although I kept it about the "incidents" at first, I eventually dropped into confiding into another woman than my wife. And then the "hug" was just my ultimate mistake, especially since she felt compassion and I returned it with lust -- as if I'm now mixing compassion and love with my wife with lust and "tit-grabbing."
Your thoughts on 4A, 4B and 4C? Especially 4A v. 4B v. 4C?
As far as 4C, I think this sums it up best, and is exactly how I feel ...
Some of you, and even the woman, have now stated it's because I'm a "sex addict." I took that to heart and stayed off the board for over 2 days, and am considering pulling back all my lust.
At the same time, what happens when I'm presented with a beautiful woman who wants to hug me again? Will I just fall back into that? Again, the only explanation I can give is that I was vunerable, a woman was caring, offered a hug, and I associated that combination with the woman being my wife somehow and I instantly fell into that "feeling" without the "logic" clicking in to inform me of the obvious.
Or was it 4B that led eventually to 4C? That I even entertained her commentary and offered my own? And that lead to lust I shouldn't have had? Or was I a gentleman through 4B, but utterly reversed that in 4C? That's the type of commentary and advice I'm looking for, to get those answers.
5. And yes, I told my wife
It's safe to say she packed today. I don't know where she left to. I don't think she'll be going to work because everyone overheard. I don't know if she's just asking for a day, week or other time off, or if she quit.
I guess it's one hell of a "Thanksgiving" I gave my wife, sigh. I know she deserves better than myself, I've said this prior to the incidents above. The question is, should I try to get her back if I know she deserves better than I?
I've avoided the board for over 2 days to get some perspective.
I now see some of you are confused, some others think I want your sympathy, etc... Here's the deal ...
1. No sympathies!
I didn't post this to get any "sympathy," I posted this to get some "advice" on the many facets of this issue, as well as document it for myself for some self-reflection. I do not "feel sorry for myself" and if you read this and got some view of that, then you really didn't read it.
I especially didn't care for this response ... (bolding added by myself)
I think you were just purposely being inflammatory in the hope I'd knee-jerk respond.
2. Why both her and I had our contracts terminated immediately
Both the woman and I work for another company than the company we were at, we're vendors. We both had our contracts terminated, or at least "suspended." I assume this is because it's "standard policy" to terminate both parties in an "incident" when it's clearly a case of a consensual episode where others felt uncomfortable. We're also vendors and not employees, so if the client doesn't like us, the client can terminate our contract at any time without cause.
Our employers are a different story. But our employers can easily terminate us for "bad judgment" at a client, in front of a client. Again, we're not "normal employees" and things are much different than what many of you may be used to.
Now with that said, based on my conversation with the woman afterwards, while I did lose my job (or am in the process of "officially" being terminated by my company), her company is still retaining her. Her company also feels that she can get the position back at the client if she wants it, after the investigation is complete.
Frankly, I don't want to go back to that client anyway after this episode. As far as going back to my employer, I probably can't, ever, and I'll run into their employees where ever I go. That's what's bothering me most, but at the same time, this is one of those situations I created for myself, so I must live with it.
3. She e-mailed me to "close" the last "incident"
To start, she asked that I do not e-mail her back except to tell her I got it. So all I did was e-mail back, "Thank you, now I can get on with my life and learn a huge lesson."
Basically she stated that she was sorry she went to give me a hug, but that didn't explain or excuse what I did. The only rationale she could come up with for my action was that I was vunerable and just used to having my wife there to cry on. But even given that, she not only rebuked me further for calling her and confiding in her, but that I often grab my wife's breast when I went to kiss my wife -- something she didn't understand.
She concluded by saying I was a gentleman for the most part, but I needed help because I obviously have some sexual addiction that I needed to learn to control.
4. I realize I do need some help
First off, let's separate the three "stages" from one another here ...
A. Keeping it professional
I kept my eyes at eye level, did not stare below as I worked with her originally. I kept my eyes up so all I could notice was that she was fuller, but I did not let my eyes explore her further, other than her very enchanting profile above the neck.
B. The conversation at lunch
I did not wander until after being prompted several times, and I keep it professional for awhile. Unfortunately I carried that conversation into the office, which was a massive no-no. What's bothering me is that, yes, I was wrong to bring that conversation back into the office, but I'm uncertain whether it was "wrong" in the first place outside the office.
C. The 2-part screw-up
I royally screwed up here in two ways. One, I called her and although I kept it about the "incidents" at first, I eventually dropped into confiding into another woman than my wife. And then the "hug" was just my ultimate mistake, especially since she felt compassion and I returned it with lust -- as if I'm now mixing compassion and love with my wife with lust and "tit-grabbing."
Your thoughts on 4A, 4B and 4C? Especially 4A v. 4B v. 4C?
As far as 4C, I think this sums it up best, and is exactly how I feel ...
The question is, how did I even bring myself to do that?
Some of you, and even the woman, have now stated it's because I'm a "sex addict." I took that to heart and stayed off the board for over 2 days, and am considering pulling back all my lust.
At the same time, what happens when I'm presented with a beautiful woman who wants to hug me again? Will I just fall back into that? Again, the only explanation I can give is that I was vunerable, a woman was caring, offered a hug, and I associated that combination with the woman being my wife somehow and I instantly fell into that "feeling" without the "logic" clicking in to inform me of the obvious.
Or was it 4B that led eventually to 4C? That I even entertained her commentary and offered my own? And that lead to lust I shouldn't have had? Or was I a gentleman through 4B, but utterly reversed that in 4C? That's the type of commentary and advice I'm looking for, to get those answers.
5. And yes, I told my wife
It's safe to say she packed today. I don't know where she left to. I don't think she'll be going to work because everyone overheard. I don't know if she's just asking for a day, week or other time off, or if she quit.
I guess it's one hell of a "Thanksgiving" I gave my wife, sigh. I know she deserves better than myself, I've said this prior to the incidents above. The question is, should I try to get her back if I know she deserves better than I?
Re: Clarifications and updates ...
Nope. I was just typing exactly what I thought.
Whether it pissed you off or not was irrelavent.
Nope. I was just typing exactly what I thought.
Whether it pissed you off or not was irrelavent.
Wife left me (it's official), new thread (and poll) ...
Separate thread on my wife leaving me, and what you think I should do about it ...
Wife left me (it's official) ...
http://board.freeones.com/showthread.php?t=172353
Separate thread on my wife leaving me, and what you think I should do about it ...
Wife left me (it's official) ...
http://board.freeones.com/showthread.php?t=172353
So what you're saying is ...
And I'll be on to a new, "fat" lover in no time?
I'm not even going to respond to that further.
So you're saying I am "feeling sorry for myself"?
And I'll be on to a new, "fat" lover in no time?
I'm not even going to respond to that further.
Re: So what you're saying is ...
Don't you read? I typed 'will feel sorry for yourself'. Not 'do'. I don't think you are yet.
And as for the other? You like fat women, right? The woman in your signature looks fat to me. Pretty, but fat. And since you attracted an overweight woman before, I assume you will again. And since overweight woman often have lower self esteems - they are often easier to 'get'. So I assume your oppurtunities to 'attain' such a woman will present itself and you will take advantage of it.
I just didn't describe your taste in woman as fat before because of your wife. But now she is gone (I assume), I feel no such limitations.
Surely after all this time you realize that I typed what I think first and worry what other people think about a distant second.
Don't you read? I typed 'will feel sorry for yourself'. Not 'do'. I don't think you are yet.
And as for the other? You like fat women, right? The woman in your signature looks fat to me. Pretty, but fat. And since you attracted an overweight woman before, I assume you will again. And since overweight woman often have lower self esteems - they are often easier to 'get'. So I assume your oppurtunities to 'attain' such a woman will present itself and you will take advantage of it.
I just didn't describe your taste in woman as fat before because of your wife. But now she is gone (I assume), I feel no such limitations.
Surely after all this time you realize that I typed what I think first and worry what other people think about a distant second.
Don't pull any punches ...
Yes, a lot of it is about "self esteem," but just because you try to woo a woman with your words doesn't mean she won't think they're bullshit.
The key is to be honest and they will realize that they aren't "fat," but very full, but slender and beautiful in ways other "fat" women are not.
That is the huge difference, I don't woo them with lies, I woo them with honest fact that they are beautiful unlike over 90% of allegedly "fat" women.
But since you lump them all into "fat" you can't possibly understand that difference, nor explain it to them.
I'd rather just hear it "raw" instead and off-the-bat next time.
Okay?
One of these days you'll just be honest, instead of grand standing, that requires you to be honest and not contradict yourself.
It may have something to do with your misery and lack of a longer-term lover that you seem to beat yourself up about.
Not that I have any room to talk now, since I just fucked mine up.
Difference so noted.
Did you ever think that maybe since I differentiate between "fat" full figured women (typically straight or spoon/pear shaped) and "curvy" full figured women (of hourglass or apple shape that distribute weight better IMHO) that I was able to entertain and be intimate with women (and even get the interest of "thin" women because I wasn't so "typical" while being 100% honest)?
Yes, a lot of it is about "self esteem," but just because you try to woo a woman with your words doesn't mean she won't think they're bullshit.
The key is to be honest and they will realize that they aren't "fat," but very full, but slender and beautiful in ways other "fat" women are not.
That is the huge difference, I don't woo them with lies, I woo them with honest fact that they are beautiful unlike over 90% of allegedly "fat" women.
But since you lump them all into "fat" you can't possibly understand that difference, nor explain it to them.
Apparently you've been "pulling punches" before.
I'd rather just hear it "raw" instead and off-the-bat next time.
Okay?
Apparently you do worry, or you would have called my wife "fat" from the get-go until now.
One of these days you'll just be honest, instead of grand standing, that requires you to be honest and not contradict yourself.
It may have something to do with your misery and lack of a longer-term lover that you seem to beat yourself up about.
Not that I have any room to talk now, since I just fucked mine up.
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