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Bush lied about WMD's

the KEY DIFFERENCE is that one president DID invade

Clinton just threatened to
While you have a point, and it's a point that I regularly agree with (Bush is responsible for invading), the rhetoric on "lying" does get rather old.

You not only have to really stretch things on W., but ignore all of the actions of Clinton from 1996-1998, including the Clinton administrations great agitation at Russia, France and Germany in 1996, after they blocked UK and US actions in the UN Security Council in 1995 only to be proven wrong. Iraq was hiding WMDs and proven to be doing so as late as 1997, after Russia, France and Germany stated inspections had removed them all in 1995.

This is the history. People trying to demonize W., say he "lied" but they don't like to talk about the realities of Iraq from 1993-1998 under the Clinton administration when inspections were going on. Clinton also unilaterally ordered missile strikes on Iraq (all of which did not hit their targets and caused a rate of collateral damage far worse than "boots on the ground") and took many other actions without even NATO approval.

So while I utterly agree with blaming W. for many things, but the "lied" is just a little too hypocritical if you're a Democrat. That includes the Democrats -- like Hillary and Kerry -- who very much did have access to the same intelligence. There are many members of Congress that get the same intelligence reports as the W. administration, and drew the same conclusions in 2002.

That's what I really get tired of people ignoring, as much as I did not want to go into Iraq myself, and never voted for W. myself.

Not true. President Bush acted on the intelligence he was given. I also believe there WERE weapons of mass destruction,however they were quickly moved.
W. was also warned on the "reliability" of much of the intelligence too, that some of it was not verified.

Of course if you go back to 1995, there was no verified intelligence that Iraq still had WMDs either. And look what happened in 1996? We found out otherwise, and were "caught with our pants down" in 1996 as much as at the end of the 1991 war. So there was an inclination -- both in the Clinton and W. administrations -- to believe there were WMDs in the country.

In reality, there was no accounting from 1998-2003. So we'll never know what actually happened to any remaining stores that were mobile in 1998 that they had been trying to track down from 1996-1998. We only got the ones that weren't mobile in 1996-1998.

As Hans Blix repeatedly pointed out, and Libya and South Africa were regularly used as examples, inspections NEVER work unless the country FULLY DISCLOSES. Iraq never did. Of that, they were never, ever once, not once, in compliance with any resolution.

Was that justification for invading? Frankly, I could care less. I did not want to invade. But many lawyers agree that Iraq never complied with the terms of the cease fire, so it was continually void. The question was always how much did that give the US right to enforce it.

The "lying" comment is argumentative and has nothing to do with reality. Just like the argument that Iraq was a "sovereign nation." No they were not after 1991, not remotely in any legal context. But it doesn't mean the US should do something about it. Although the UN is as impotent as ... well ... you know, viagra works wonders but not everything. ;)
 
^
2 things jump right out at first glance, Jason....

1) Your use of the term "DemoCrap"....would indicate a slight veering to the right, yes.
2) Using freerepublic.com as the source. Right-wing equivalent of using dailykos.com on the left.

And yeah, some republican quotes might have balanced things out a bit.

I'll do it for you....

Cheney: No Doubt Saddam Has WMD
Aug. 26, 2002
Dick Cheney, Vice President
"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." (more)

Bush: Iraq Currently Expanding WMD Production
Sep. 12, 2002
George W. Bush, Speech to UN General Assembly
"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."

Sep. 12, 2002
George W. Bush
Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.

Bush: Iraq Has WMD Stockpile
Oct. 5, 2002
George W. Bush, Radio Address
"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons." (more)

Bush: Iraq Possesses and Produces Chemical Weapons
Oct. 7, 2002
George W. Bush
"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas." (more)

Bush: 500 Tons of Sarin, 30,000 Munitions
Jan. 28, 2003
George W. Bush
"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent" and "upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents... " (more)

May 30, 2003
Bush cites 2 trailers found as evidence of " the weapons of mass destruction" that were the United States' primary justification for going to war.
washingtonpost
"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."
George W. Bush, Speech to UN General Assembly 9/12/2002

"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons. We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."
George W. Bush, Radio Address 10/5/2002

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."
George W. Bush, Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas."
George W. Bush, Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."
George W. Bush, State of the Union Address 1/28/2003

“The best way for peace is for Mr. Saddam Hussein to disarm,” he insists. “It's up to him to make his decision.” [White House, 12/4/02]

Bush says. “He's the person who gets to decide war and peace.” [White House, 2/7/03]

Sep. 18, 2002
Donald Rumsfeld
His regime has amassed large, clandestine stockpiles of biological weapons—including anthrax and botulism toxin, and possibly smallpox.

His regime has amassed large, clandestine stockpiles of chemical weapons—including VX, sarin, cyclosarin and mustard gas.

His regime has an active program to acquire and develop nuclear weapons.
(more)

Republicans Limit Probe of WMD Issue
"There seems to be a campaign afoot by some to criticize the intelligence community and the president for connecting the dots, for putting together a picture that seemed all too obvious," said Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts, of Kansas. The Republican chairmen of the House of Representatives Intelligence Committee and the Senate Armed Services Committee joined Roberts in rejecting calls for an investigation. June 11, 2003.

Fleischer: No Question of Evidence of WMD
Mar. 21, 2003
White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer
"Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly."

Iraqis Authorized to Use Imaginary Chemical Weapons?
Oct. 5, 2002
George W. Bush
"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons. We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." (more)

dedefensa
CBS news 10 March: many interesting quotes

Mar. 22, 2003
Gen. Tommy Franks: "There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. As this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them."
startribune

Jun. 4, 2003
Financial Times reports a single source, a senior Iraqi officer on active service, told British intelligence last August that Iraq could fire chemical or biological warheads within 45 minutes. - more
senioriraqiofficial (52k PDF)

Apr. 9, 2004
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
We still need to find and secure Iraq's weapons of mass destruction facilities and secure Iraq's borders so we can prevent the flow of weapons of mass destruction materials and senior regime officials out of the country.
(more)

Mar. 21, 2004
Ari Fleischer:"Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly . . . all this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes."
startribune

Jan. 9, 2003
Ari Fleischer: "We know for a fact that there are weapons there."
startribune

Remarks to the United Nations Security Council

Renewed Production of Chemcial Warfare Agents
Nov. 1, 2002
John Bolton, Undersecretary of State for Arms Control
"We estimate that once Iraq acquires fissile material -- whether from a foreign source or by securing the materials to build an indigenous fissile material capability -- it could fabricate a nuclear weapon within one year. It has rebuilt its civilian chemical infrastructure and renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard, sarin, and VX. It actively maintains all key aspects of its offensive BW [biological weapons] program. (more)

Rice: All of the Dots Added Up
Sep. 28, 2003
Dr. Condoleezza Rice, National Security Advisor
"The premise of the war was ... all of the dots added up to a program and to weapons and a weapons program that was dangerous and getting more so."


http://zfacts.com/p/581.html

And well, history and my :2 cents: , worth :2 cents: and that is to reiterate that they were told Iraq did not have weapons just before the case for war was made, the last possible moment to stop the invasion of Iraq which all the world thinks proves the US is the Great Satan in one form or another. Powell as the one with the greatest credibility was given the job of handing out more B.S. because they knew he would be trusted as the last word on the subject.

One of the stories on CNN the past few days featuring news clips from 2002, has been how Scott Ritter, the UN inspector stated before the invasion that he did not believe there were WMD's in Iraq. As you probably remember, the UN was kicked out of Iraq by Bush before they made a 100% inspection of the country allowing some room for doubt that they may not have inspected the area where the WMD's actually were.

Just like Vietnam, which was also fought on political grounds.



Many, many accurate sources to support those assertions Jagger. It's a matter of doublethink at this point, to be able to deny history for the benefit of one's selfish political ideas.


And well, history and my :2 cents: , is to reiterate the Bush admin were told Iraq did not have weapons just before the case for war was made, the last possible moment to stop the invasion of Iraq which all the world thinks proves the US is the Great Satan in one form or another. Powell as the one with the greatest credibility was given the job of handing out more B.S. because they knew he would be trusted as the last word on the subject.

One of the stories on CNN the past few days featuring news clips from 2002, has been how Scott Ritter, the UN inspector stated before the invasion that he did not believe there were WMD's in Iraq. As you probably remember, the UN was kicked out of Iraq by Bush before they made a 100% inspection of the country allowing some room for doubt that they may not have inspected the area where the WMD's actually were.

Just like Vietnam, which was also fought on political grounds, except there were many fewer highly paid military contractors from Halliburton fighting the war back then. What is the number of contractors, something like 80% of the force in Iraq?

As of early 2008, at least 190,000 private personnel were working on US-funded projects in the Iraq theater, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) survey found. That means that for each uniformed member of the US military in the region, there was also a contract employee – a ratio of 1 to 1.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0818/p02s01-usmi.html

Business is booming for those willing to tackle one of the most dangerous jobs on Earth. Lucrative U.S. government contracts go to firms called on to provide security for projects and personnel -- jobs that in previous conflicts have been done by the military.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/12/iraq.contractors/index.html

Bush's War
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...aign=viewpage&utm_medium=grid&utm_source=grid
 
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Aren't there any other political parties besides the Democratic Party & the Republican Party in the US? Maybe it's time you all started voting for those instead of these 2 political parties who do nothing but cheat their voters and lie the the American people (& foreign countries)!
 

jasonk282

Banned
Aren't there any other political parties besides the Democratic Party & the Republican Party in the US? Maybe it's time you all started voting for those instead of these 2 political parties who do nothing but cheat their voters and lie the the American people (& foreign countries)!

we have numerous 3rd parties but they do not get the money like Dem and Rep do so they have a very hard time getting on a ballot.
 
we have numerous 3rd parties but they do not get the money like Dem and Rep do so they have a very hard time getting on a ballot.

In that case, change the system.... Politics shouldn't be about who has the most $.

(I'm aware that this'll be hard, since the 2 political parties powerful enough to change the system obviously don't want to, but there has to be a way.)
 

jasonk282

Banned
In that case, change the system.... Politics shouldn't be about who has the most $.

(I'm aware that this'll be hard, since the 2 political parties powerful enough to change the system obviously don't want to, but there has to be a way.)

in actuallity the lines are being more and more blured and it's begining to resemble a 1 party system. Look at Dee Dee Soczzafava she is a Republican RINO(Republican In Name Only) that is in favor of abortion, gay marriage, tax increases, card check legislation favoring the labor unions, and ACORN and is endorsed by DailyKos. Does that sound like anything what the GOP represents? Once she dropped out of the race she told her voters to support Owens the Democrat.
 
we have numerous 3rd parties but they do not get the money like Dem and Rep do so they have a very hard time getting on a ballot.

Money has a lot to do with it, but there's an element of fear on the public's part as well. For example, there have been several Libertarian or Constitution Party candidates that I have considered over the years, but in every case, even if I liked the 3rd party candidate more, I knew if I voted for them I was essentially taking my vote away from the Republican candidate, and thus making it easier for the Democrat to win. So I ended up voting for the Republican I liked less than the 3rd Party candidate, but far more than the Democrat, purely out of the fear of throwing away my vote.

The best way that I've heard to counteract this problem is to switch from a winner-take-all voting system to an instant-runoff system. In instant-runoff, a person votes for multiple candidates, ranking them in order of preference. All the #1 preference votes are tallied. If someone wins the majority of them, they win. If not, the candidate with the fewest #1 votes is dropped, and anyone who voted for that candidate has their #2 preference bumped up to #1. The votes are then tallied again. This process is repeated until someone has a majority vote.

The end result is that if you vote for a 3rd Party candidate, you never have to worry about that vote being wasted, since even if they receive a tiny percentage of the vote, your 2nd choice (the major party candidate) will still count. The downside is that this system is kinda complicated and... well... people are stupid :rolleyes:
 
Isnt this just stating the obvious , the whole world knew he lied years ago along with his lapdog Mr Blair...

He also lied about the Taliban as well , they didnt say once they wouldnt hand over Osama , what they said was "Show us your evidence that he did it and we will hand him over" but in his desparation after 9/11 someone had to pay and he thought they would be an easy target and the bible bashing nitwit has the cheek to call anyone religious fanatics or terrorists when he himself is the biggest religious fanatic ,I still cant believe this bumbling fool more or less ran the world with his half baked cuckoo ideas , Bush & Blair should be up in the Hague for war crimes themselves and I think its pretty obvious now that Saddam ran his country pretty well considering , the state its in now , he had to run it with an iron fist , when he was in power there were no terrorists , now there umteen attacks everyday also Iraq was probably the most westernized country in the middle east so much for democracy and freedom , Iraq hasnt moved foward with the invasion of the allies if anything its going backwards....

Now Im not a fan of the Taliban or Saddam & the taliban had to be removed from Afganistan there laws and way of life are draconian , but Saddam and Iraq are a different story this is one war that makes me say Im ashamed of being British , also I dont believe for a minute that they dont know where Osama is they can send things to Mars to find water , but they cant find a few shepards in the mountains of Afganistan and they have been looking for 8 years....

I have a few friends that have been to Iraq and everyone of them agree they should have never been sent there , everyone of them are against the war but they have to go and do there best & Im proud to call them friends they are only following orders but both British & American leaders should be in the dock facing charges of an unjust war.............

The most breathtakingly ignorant remark I have stumbled upon in recent memory. I am speechless. Sometimes words won't do.
 
Then you need to find a new country to hang your hat in. As long as there are Republicans doosh bags within a fart's sniff of Washington DC there will be hypocrisy.

This is a bold statement saying this to a veteran of our country. This is statement is garbage, you should watch what you say and who you say it to. Maybe sometimes it's better to keep your opinions to yourself.
 
Where did I say something specifically anti-military to jason? I know he's a Veteran. I did not literally say "JASON LEAVE THIS COUNTRY" my statement was meant to point out the Singular Point of View that jason seemed to have started this thread off with...:dunno:

I fully support our military no questions asked. Seach through my post history if you don't believe me. I'm one of the few around here who openly want to bring our troops home because they are in harm's way with no clear purpose anymore.
 
Where did I say something specifically anti-military to jason? I know he's a Veteran. I did not literally say "JASON LEAVE THIS COUNTRY" my statement was meant to point out the Singular Point of View that jason seemed to have started this thread off with...:dunno:

I fully support our military no questions asked. Seach through my post history if you don't believe me. I'm one of the few around here who openly want to bring our troops home because they are in harm's way with no clear purpose anymore.

I'm sorry I took your comment the wrong way. Just the way it came off sounded very disrespectful.
 
In that case, change the system.... Politics shouldn't be about who has the most $.

(I'm aware that this'll be hard, since the 2 political parties powerful enough to change the system obviously don't want to, but there has to be a way.)

Yeah, I agree with that. Most people can't seem to understand the gravity of the problem and the selfishness of individuals who use the "democracy", "freedom" and "patriotism" catch words, and claim to vote in the public interest.


Dodd’s wife serves on health care company boards

http://www2.dailyprogress.com/cdp/n...e_serves_on_health_care_company_boards/41476/
WASHINGTON (AP) — The wife of a senator playing a lead role on a national health care overhaul sits on the boards of four health care companies, one of several examples of lawmakers with ties to the medical industry.

Jackie Clegg Dodd, wife of Sen. Chris Dodd, serves on the boards of Javelin Pharmaceuticals Inc., Cardiome Pharma Corp., Brookdale Senior Living, and Pear Tree Pharmaceuticals, a financial disclosure report the senator released Friday shows.


Kent Conrad received over $2 million from health care industry

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/...ved-over-$2-million-from-health-care-industry
Democratic Senator Kent Conrad of North Dakota has voiced his opposition to the hotly debated public option for current health reform legislation. Conrad is instead pursuing "federally chartered co-ops," which he believes will be more politically viable. A member of the Senate Finance Committee, Conrad has a significant influence in developing the legislation.

Throughout his Senate career, Conrad has accepted over two million dollars from the health care establishment ($2,147,200 to be exact), according to the Center for Responsive Politics. This is broken up as $824,837 from the "Insurance" industry, $604,432 from "Health Professionals," $275,766 from "Hospitals/Nursing Homes," $253,450 from "Pharmaceuticals/Health Products," and $188,715 from "Health Services/HMOs."

We all know that campaign contributions are anything but uncommon in politics, these industries have a long history of resisting – if not actively combating – health care reform. Insurance companies, who are among Conrad’s biggest donors, are strongly resisting the public plan, decrying "unfair competition" from the government.
 
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Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
As I have said many times here in the middle of many partisan arguments on this forum, it's the system that's rotten. Democrats....republicans....they are all self-serving politicians. They care little about the average citizen other than to pander to them just enough in order to secure their vote so they can go back to office and steal them blind for another term.
 
As I have said many times here in the middle of many partisan arguments on this forum, it's the system that's rotten. Democrats....republicans....they are all self-serving politicians. They care little about the average citizen other than to pander to them just enough in order to secure their vote so they can go back to office and steal them blind for another term.

On top of that having other people sacrifice their kids to some B.S. cause that someone in the money will benefit from.

But, people prefer to stick their heads in the sand, and at best news has become entertainment in the US.
 
I wouldnt be too surprised if i get shit for saying this but ever since i saw the zeitgeist movies and other documentaries such as obama deception, loose change and whatnot i see conspiracy everywhere when it comes to usa and every president since like what..the 1930s?
 
I wouldnt be too surprised if i get shit for saying this but ever since i saw the zeitgeist movies and other documentaries such as obama deception, loose change and whatnot i see conspiracy everywhere when it comes to usa and every president since like what..the 1930s?

You can find material for conspiracy theories going back to the founding fathers. But I'd say the creation of the Federal Reserve in 1913 probably creates the most fodder for suspicion.
 

jasonk282

Banned
On top of that having other people sacrifice their kids to some B.S. cause that someone in the money will benefit from..

I am sorry I though we had a VOLUNTEER military. I must have been wrong.
 
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