2008 MLB Thread

[HotDPLust]

It looks like this series is over now. If you lived in Tampa, you would know what I am talking about. The whole city is acting like the Rays lost it all. The fact of the matter is that Boston still needs to win two road games against a pretty damn good home team. Yes, they have Beckett and Lester but it's not like Shields and Garza are shitty pitchers either.

It will be interesting to see how the young, inexperienced Rays bounce back after that crushing loss. If they come back and win on Sat. night, it is a testament to their fortitude and poise. In any playoff series, momentum is a huge factor and it clearly is on the side of Boston right now. I think even if the Rays take an early lead and get the crowd into it, there will be a little doubt in the back of everyone's mind until that 27th...err...final out is recorded. (I am anticipating a very close game 6 and the possibility of extra innings).

If you blame anyone on last night's debacle, it would be Maddon's choices of relievers. I think that if he had gone into the 7th with a "mop up" mentality and put in either Jackson or Price this series would be over as the perception would have been "mop up" and low pressure versus putting in a fastball late inning reliever who depends on the fastball. Boston's only chance of even getting back into that game was a HR.

 

[Magnet]

Yeah, I also think Kazmir could have gone another inning.

Its deep in the postseason, he had like 111 pitches. He could have gone to 130 or 135 and he would have had plenty of time to recover. He was absolutely dominating.

 

[Nikkifan19]

Missed the start of the 7th, but it sounds like Kazmir was awesome last night. How many hits had he given up when the took him out?

 

[Magnet]

2 hits, I think 3 walks and 7 k's.

 

[Nikkifan19]

So why'd Maddon lift him? Situational matchups?

 

[shayd]

So why'd Maddon lift him? Situational matchups?

Pitch count. If you ask me, and I know the results last night were not indicative of this, but I'm not sure the Rays believe he's completely healthy.

 

[rodfarva]

Yeah, I also think Kazmir could have gone another inning.

Its deep in the postseason, he had like 111 pitches. He could have gone to 130 or 135 and he would have had plenty of time to recover. He was absolutely dominating.

A lot of people keep saying this. Stop for a second and think what you would do in Maddon's shoes. The game was 7-0 and Kazmir had thrown 111 pitches and it was a series clinching game. Why would any manager send him out for the 7th? Why risk him overexerting himself when you have a 7-run lead? That would be utterly foolish. He could have gone to 130 or 135 pitches?!?!?!?! Do you realize how many pitches that is? Pitchers NEVER throw that many pitches.

Maddon didn't screw up by lifting Kazmir, he screwed up by going to the wrong relievers.

 

[ChefChiTown]

A lot of people keep saying this. Stop for a second and think what you would do in Maddon's shoes. The game was 7-0 and Kazmir had thrown 111 pitches and it was a series clinching game. Why would any manager send him out for the 7th? Why risk him overexerting himself when you have a 7-run lead? That would be utterly foolish. He could have gone to 130 or 135 pitches?!?!?!?! Do you realize how many pitches that is? Pitchers NEVER throw that many pitches.

Maddon didn't screw up by lifting Kazmir, he screwed up by going to the wrong relievers.

That's only because (in today's day and age) we treat our pitchers like pansies. Back in the day, pitchers used to throw that many pitches all the time. And, they would do it more than once every 4 or 5 GAMES, they would do it every few DAYS or so.

Personally, I think a lot of baseball managers forget that, in the playoffs, tomorrow doesn't mean shit if you can't get past today. It was a game that, if they would've won, would've sent them to the World Series. He (Maddon) should've been thinking "we HAVE to win this game, no matter what", instead of, "we already won this game and there is no way that the Red Sox can come back and win."

1) It was only the 7th inning, which meant that there were 3 more innings of ballgame left. 1/3 of the game had even yet to be played...that's A LOT.
2) The Red Sox have been making some pretty ridiculous comebacks in the past few years and they shouldn't have been taken lightly.
3) Whether they like it or not, the Rays are not an established team yet. Maddon shouldn't be thinking that any of their leads (no matter how big it is or no matter what point of the game they're in) are going to hold.

Obviously, there were other contributors to the Rays' loss :cough:Longoria:cough:, but Maddon made a mistake.

 

[zell]

That's only because (in today's day and age) we treat our pitchers like pansies. Back in the day, pitchers used to throw that many pitches all the time. And, they would do it more than once every 4 or 5 GAMES, they would do it every few DAYS or so.

Personally, I think a lot of baseball managers forget that, in the playoffs, tomorrow doesn't mean shit if you can't get past today. It was a game that, if they would've won, would've sent them to the World Series. He (Maddon) should've been thinking "we HAVE to win this game, no matter what", instead of, "we already won this game and there is no way that the Red Sox can come back and win."

1) It was only the 7th inning, which meant that there were 3 more innings of ballgame left. 1/3 of the game had even yet to be played...that's A LOT.
2) The Red Sox have been making some pretty ridiculous comebacks in the past few years and they shouldn't have been taken lightly.
3) Whether they like it or not, the Rays are not an established team yet. Maddon shouldn't be thinking that any of their leads (no matter how big it is or no matter what point of the game they're in) are going to hold.

Obviously, there were other contributors to the Rays' loss :cough:Longoria:cough:, but Maddon made a mistake.

I agree 100%,and case in point,look a Lou Pinella and his piss poor decision last year in the playoff when he opted to take Zambrano out of the game when he was cruising against the D-Dacks.He wanted to save him for later in the series,but he should've been looking at the game that was in front of his face.

At this point in the season,you have to look and manage for today and right now,not for what's coming down the road,because tomorrow just might not be there.

I'll laugh my ass off if the Rays end up blowing it,and you can bet you ass that that decision will be scrutinized forever if they do end up choking,along with not starting Shields.

 

[ChefChiTown]

I agree 100%,and case in point,look a Lou Pinella and his piss poor decision last year in the playoff when he opted to take Zambrano out of the game when he was cruising against the D-Dacks.He wanted to save him for later in the series,but he should've been looking at the game that was in front of his face.

At this point in the season,you have to look and manage for today and right now,not for what's coming down the road,because tomorrow just might not be there.

I'll laugh my ass off if the Rays end up blowing it,and you can bet you ass that that decision will be scrutinized forever if they do end up choking,along with not starting Shields.

Yeah, exactly!!! I'm sick and tired of seeing all of these managers "resting" their players...DURING THE PLAYOFFS!!! They act like a few more pitches (during a CRUCIAL game) is going to ruin their pitcher forever. They act like 20 or so more pitches is going to wear their pitcher out for good and they'll never be able to use them again. No, you assholes...your pitchers just got done playing an entire season of 162 games. These extra 20 or so pitches are no big deal.

Quit treating your players like they're fragile bitches.

 

[zell]

Yeah, exactly!!! I'm sick and tired of seeing all of these managers "resting" their players...DURING THE PLAYOFFS!!! They act like a few more pitches (during a CRUCIAL game) is going to ruin their pitcher forever. They act like 20 or so more pitches is going to wear their pitcher out for good and they'll never be able to use them again. No, you assholes...your pitchers just got done playing an entire season of 162 games. These extra 20 or so pitches are no big deal.

Quit treating your players like they're fragile bitches.

Personally,I think that pitch counts are full of shit because they never take into account a pitcher's warm up pitches while he's on the mound.So in all actuality,if a guy throws 100 pitches in a game,has he not really thrown around 120 anyway?

If you want to "save" your pitcher,why not have him throw less number and/or less intense warm ups?

 

[HotDPLust]

I agree 100%,and case in point,look a Lou Pinella and his piss poor decision last year in the playoff when he opted to take Zambrano out of the game when he was cruising against the D-Dacks.He wanted to save him for later in the series,but he should've been looking at the game that was in front of his face.

At this point in the season,you have to look and manage for today and right now,not for what's coming down the road,because tomorrow just might not be there.

I'll laugh my ass off if the Rays end up blowing it,and you can bet you ass that that decision will be scrutinized forever if they do end up choking,along with not starting Shields.

The decision to start Kaz instead of Shields was an absolutely brilliant decision and no matter what happens from here on out, you can not argue with that one. Shields pitches better at home and Kazmir has a good history at Fenway. The decision paid off...in spite of the end result. I too would have considered starting the 7th with Kazmir to and pushed him to 125-130 pitches.

At the same time, I don't think the decision to pull him was neccessarily a bad one either, but why go to a fastball pitcher? At the very least, when he was not getting the outs, Balfour should have been pulled. Maddon had an entire bullpen at his disposal. The absolute last thing they could have afforded was the 3 run HR from Big Papi. Balfour, a fastball pitcher whose fastball was not working should have NEVER been facing Ortiz. That was the crucial mistake. He also should have put in Fernando Perez in place of Gabe Gross for defensive purposes. Perez would have caught the Pedroia hit and they would have gone into the 8th with a 7-0 lead. The other big mistake was using Wheeler in the 7th.

But that game is over and there is nothing anyone can do about it now. If the Rays want to win the series, they need to completely forget about it and get ready to play Gm. 6.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Personally,I think that pitch counts are full of shit because they never take into account a pitcher's warm up pitches while he's on the mound.So in all actuality,if a guy throws 100 pitches in a game,has he not really thrown around 120 anyway?

If you want to "save" your pitcher,why not have him throw less number and/or less intense warm ups?

Yup. Pitch counts are "ok", if you're on a rehab assignment, but when you're a full-time, bonifide major league pitcher, pitch counts are fucking useless. Yes, warm up pitches aren't taken into consideration, which is kind of hypocritical if you think about it.

It's almost as if most managers think that throwing pitches won't tire your arm out, unless you're standing on the mound and balls and strikes are being kept track of. No, pitches tire your arm out no matter where you are throwing or what the situation is, sooooo...:dunno: That logic has never made sense to me.

I'll say this as well...

I played catcher. People don't realize that catchers throw more than anybody else on the field, even the precious little pitchers. Catchers play almost every single game, so, let's say they play in 150 games during the season. If you added up the number of times they had to throw a ball during that time frame, it would be INSANE. Pitchers, on the other hand, don't have nearly the number of throws throughout the course of a season because they only pitch in 30 or so games. Yes, catchers aren't throwing sliders or split fingered fastballs, but they're still throwing on an extremely consistent basis. So, why don't they get treated like babies? Hmm? :dunno:

It's fucking stupid that these managers baby their best pitchers. They don't do it to every pitcher they have...only their "star" pitchers, which is also hypocritical. An arm gets tired, no matter how much of a "star" that you are.

 

[Magnet]

Yup. Pitch counts are "ok", if you're on a rehab assignment, but when you're a full-time, bonifide major league pitcher, pitch counts are fucking useless. Yes, warm up pitches aren't taken into consideration, which is kind of hypocritical if you think about it.

It's almost as if most managers think that throwing pitches won't tire your arm out, unless you're standing on the mound and balls and strikes are being kept track of. No, pitches tire your arm out no matter where you are throwing or what the situation is, sooooo...:dunno: That logic has never made sense to me.

I'll say this as well...

I played catcher. People don't realize that catchers throw more than anybody else on the field, even the precious little pitchers. Catchers play almost every single game, so, let's say they play in 150 games during the season. If you added up the number of times they had to throw a ball during that time frame, it would be INSANE. Pitchers, on the other hand, don't have nearly the number of throws throughout the course of a season because they only pitch in 30 or so games. Yes, catchers aren't throwing sliders or split fingered fastballs, but they're still throwing on an extremely consistent basis. So, why don't they get treated like babies? Hmm? :dunno:

It's fucking stupid that these managers baby their best pitchers. They don't do it to every pitcher they have...only their "star" pitchers, which is also hypocritical. An arm gets tired, no matter how much of a "star" that you are.

Catchers are babied. Only one catcher this year started over 140 games, and only 6 others started over 130.

And thats a pretty crappy comparison to make between a pitcher and a catcher making throws. The catcher dosent have to throw anywhere near the speed the pitcher has to throw. Thats a lot less torque on the arm, elbow, and shoulder. The only time the catcher has to throw the ball hard is when he is trying to catch someone on base and thats maybe 5 to 10 times a game.


I do agree however that pitchers are panzies. Back in the day like you mentioned in another post they use to throw 150+ on a regular basis, not to mention some pitchers use to pitch back to back doubleheaders and what not. Though they werent throwing as many breaking balls, its still a lot of stress on the arm when your trying to fling it as hard as you can.

As for Kazmir, there was only one explainable explanation as to why Maddon took him out. Its was a cold night in Boston and the top half of the 7th inning last a long time. Even with that he still has to go back out. Its the damn playoff's for crying out loud. He would have over a weeks rest to prepare for the world series.

As for him bringing in a fastball pitcher...hate to break it to you guys but that was the right move (if one even needed to be made). You dont want a guy in there throwing breaking stuff and walking a bunch of guys. The last thing you need when up 7-0 is your pitcher to start walking guys.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Catchers are babied. Only one catcher this year started over 140 games, and only 6 others started over 130.

And thats a pretty crappy comparison to make between a pitcher and a catcher making throws. The catcher dosent have to throw anywhere near the speed the pitcher has to throw. Thats a lot less torque on the arm, elbow, and shoulder. The only time the catcher has to throw the ball hard is when he is trying to catch someone on base and thats maybe 5 to 10 times a game.

Catchers are babied? They have the hardest, most physically demanding position to play on the field, day in and day out. Like I said before, catchers aren't throwing sliders or split fingered fastballs, but they still throw hard. They're not out their lobbing the ball, if you would pay attention. If catchers would lob the ball back to the pitcher, every single base runner would just steal a base. I've seen it happen before.

Also, catchers throw from their knees 95% of the time, which makes them use their arms as their main source of throwing power. Pitchers get to use their legs, which becomes their main source of throwing power, and saves their arm in the long run.

80 throws at 100% power (pitcher) would be about the same as 120 throws at 75% power (catcher), in respect to tiring of the arms. Yet, catchers do it almost every single game. Pitchers don't.

When I still played ball (I was a catcher), I would be in the locker room after every game icing my shoulder, elbow, back and knees. It was rough, but I had play every single game. Pitchers don't have to do that. They play once every 4 or 5 games. How hard is that on your body, honestly? It's not. They get babied soooooo much just because they're the "stars" of the team. There's no other reason to treat them like that. They're grown ass men who have been playing baseball for their whole lives. They're used to throwing that much, but once they get into the pros, they are all of sudden these big, huge babies? Nah, I don't think so.

The thing that makes me the most upset is how they make it seem like relief pitchers can only throw 1 or 2 innings before they get tired. Umm...no. These pitchers were, more than likely, starters before they got put into the bullpen. They can throw more than 1 or 2 innings...come on. It's ridiculous. MLB breeds pansies when it comes to pitching. It's that simple.

"Uh oh, Bobby Jenks threw 1.1 innings tonight and had to face 5 batter. Yes, FIVE batters!!! I guess the White Sox will have to rest him for a couple of days."

 

[ChefChiTown]

Can someone please tell me what channel the game is on tonight? It's schedule to be on TBS, but I'm watching TBS right now and uh, yeeeeeah...it's the STEVE HARVEY SHOW.

:dunno:

 

[Nikkifan19]

I guess there's techinical difficulties, but this is ridiculous. It's Game 6 of the ALCS for crying out loud! Put these games on Fox!

 

[ChefChiTown]

I guess there's techinical difficulties, but this is ridiculous. It's Game 6 of the ALCS for crying out loud! Put these game on Fox!

Ooooh ok. I see the scrolling "message" now.

You would think that they could at least put something GOOD on TV while they're fixing these so-called "difficulties". But...STEVE HARVEY?

 

[Nikkifan19]

Or put it on TNT like they did earlier in the playoffs.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Or put it on TNT like they did earlier in the playoffs.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe they're having a problem with their live feed or something. I don't know, this is so stupid.