2008 MLB Thread
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You,my good sir are an idiot.Let's see,Howard struck out 7 times in,I believe 12 at bats with one HR in the Playoffs against the Rockies.Now you explain to me how that's a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Howard
Game,set,match.
Well first you've got to define lately. If by lately you mean in the past decade, then he's put together teams that have been to the playoffs in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2006. 5 of the past 8 years he's put together a playoff team, and if that means he's unsuccessful, I'd hate to think what it takes to be :dunno:. The A's made the ALCS two years ago, and were it not for a streaking Tigers team, would have at least made the world series.
Look, Dan Haren is probably my favorite player from the A's since Hudson and Mulder, and I was as upset as anyone about that trade, but if you think we got no one in that trade, I'm afraid you're flat wrong. We got the best prospect in the Diamondback's system in Carlos Gonzalez, we got two major league ready pitchers in Dana Eveland, (who was sent down presumably because of an arm injury that caused him to lose a great deal of command) and Greg Smith. We also got a soon to be major league star in Brett Anderson, (who made the Future's game roster), and has been dominant this entire year. Add Chris Carter to that mix, who's hit 29 home runs at age 21, and Aaron Cunningham, who's a tremendous defensive player with power potential, and I think we absolutely DOMINATED that deal. If you don't believe me, consider the sheer number of high level prospects (6) we got for Haren, and the pitcher who many consider the best in the game in Johan Santana only fetched 3. So with all due respect, Billy worked his magic again. Yeah we suck this year, but 5 of our starting position players have less than 2 years of major league experience, and we're rebuilding, so we know that we're not gonna be good for at least another year.
Well, you certainly have the right to your opinion, however none of the moves the A's have made have been a waste as you've thought, every trade has brought back high level prospects, which everyone in the game covets. Plus, unlike teams like Boston, New York, Philly, and practically anyone not named the Marlins, the A's don't have the big market spending ability that those teams do. The fucking Royals have a bigger market than the A's, and they haven't had the success the A's have in 20 years.
Good question, off the top of my head I can tell you it was 1990. Then again, when was the last time the Yankees, or the Cubs, Phillies, Mets, teams with HUGE payrolls made the World Series. Yankees haven't been since 2003, which depending on your definition of the word, isn't lately. And by that logic the fucking Rockies would be considered a wildly successful team for the run they had last year. Sorry, but I'm not buying it.
Or for the better part of a decade, either way. :dunno:
Sorry, wrong again. The Marlins are at a disadvantage of having a dickhead for an owner, who's only goal is to make money. Sure both our teams have stockpiled talent, however the Marlins will in 5 years be rid of ALL of that talent. That's what they do, stockpile talent and blow it up to save money. The A's have two things going for them that the Marlins don't: An owner who is willing to spend some money (granted not outrageous amounts) to win, and a new stadium in the works. And for me, a third, a GM who can put together teams that untraditionally do what other teams do.
Is Billy that big of a bad guy to you? Simply because he has the balls to do the unpopular, (but 99% of the time right) move?! Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but you've lost me there. If there was no Billy Beane, there would be no Theo Epstein, no Mark Shapiro, no Paul DePodesta, or a number of other GM's (or former GM's). Hell, even Brian-I-overpay-for-EVERYONE-Cashman has taken up Billy's philosophy and copied him. So, I think your comparison is a wee bit off.
You're right, but with that payroll I wouldn't be either.
2008 Athletics payroll: $47,967,126
W-L: 53-57, 3rd place AL West
Cost per Win: $905,040.
2008 Yankees payroll: $209,081,579
W-L: 61-50, 3rd place AL East
Cost per Win: $3,427,566
There are your stats. Same place in their respective divisions, but the A's pay a fraction of the cost the Yankees do. And half of their roster has less than 4 years of Major League experience. And before any comments about the division, keep in mind that the best team in baseball is in the A's division.
You tell me who's getting their money's worth.
You,my good sir are an idiot.Let's see,Howard struck out 7 times in,I believe 12 at bats with one HR in the Playoffs against the Rockies.Now you explain to me how that's a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Howard
Game,set,match.
I'm an idiot? Everything you say is stupid. All of the points you've made have been wrong or irrelevant. When did I say his stats in the playoffs last year were good? I said they were irrelevant, which they are. You said striking out 181 means you've had a bad year, I proved you wrong. I proved everything you've said wrong. You haven't backed up any of your points with solid, verifiable fact. So you go back to his playoff stats, since you have nothing else to work with. We were never talking about his playoff stats, we were talking about whether or not having a lot of strikeouts means you're having a bad season, which is what you said in the first place. You have nothing else to say but his playoff stats were bad. Everything else you've said has been dumb, and I proved it. So, instead of saying something dumb this time, you said something irrelevant again. Well, that's dumb too. Game, set, match? LOL. You are so stupid.
I'll give you one thing Shayd,The A's are definitely getting their money's worth,but it still isn't translating into championships,plain and simple.If you're satisfied with that them more power to you.
I think that until Beane builds a team that wins a championship,we'll just agree to disagree.
First off let me apologize for calling you an idiot,it was immature on my part,but you are really frustrating me by not actually reading what I said,and I'll just leave it at that.
Please explain to me how any of my points were wrong or irrelevant.After re-explaining what I meant,I didn't say that having a lot of strike outs necessarily meant that a player had a bad year.We were initially talking about Mo Vaughn and his stike out total,and I didn't say that he had a bad year because he had 181 strike outs.What I said is that having 181 strike outs isn't a good thing.Do you think that the manager tells a player before he goes to bat "Hey,why don't you just go up there and strike out so we can get the next guy up to bat."? Hell no the manager isn't going to say that.Why?Because nobody that plays baseball goes up to bat with the intention of striking out,EVER!
When did I say that Howard had a bad year?Here is my quote,read it and find where I said that he had a sucky year.
"Not eating my words,I just meant that striking out 181 times isn't a good thing,period.I didn't mean that just because a guy has 181 strikeouts he's necessarily having a terrible year.You brought up the exact reason why it's better to put the ball in play than to set a new strikeout record.
Oh and nice of you to leave out the fact that while Howard had 47 HRs and 136 RBIs,he only hit .268,and his slugging % and OBP were also down from the previous year,plus he grounded into more DPs than he ever had in his short career.All that to say,looking back at it,even with gaudy HR and RBI totals,what did he(supposedly the best player on the team) do to help his team win? The answer,not much because they got swept out of the first round of the playoffs,and I'm sure that having 199 strikeouts that season didn't help out either."
Nothing there saying that he "sucked",I was just illustrating that he had gaudy power numbers and a lot of strike outs.
And when did I say that you said that his playoff stats were good?I didn't.It was just another illustration of how gaudy power totals for and individual player doesn't always translate into victories.If yo ufeel that his playoff stats are irrelevant,then that's your opinion,but I thought that these guys ultimate goal was to play to win championships,not just show up to collect a paycheck.Where is the "irrelevance" in that?
If any one else thinks I'm wrong or has a different point of view,please chime in.
Damn Zell thats confusing lol.
All im getting from you is that having a bunch of strikeouts is a bad thing. Well no crap. Its impossible to do everything perfect, especially in baseball. But having 181 strikeouts is a lot less dentrimental to the team then grounding into a bunch of double plays.
Also in Ryan Howards case he strikes out a lot more with bases empty or just runners on then he does when runners are in scoring position. So even with a bunch of strikeouts, he isnt hurting his team as much as you think. Or it isnt as bad as you think or not as terrible as you think.
All im getting from you is that having a bunch of strikeouts is a bad thing. Well no crap. Its impossible to do everything perfect, especially in baseball. But having 181 strikeouts is a lot less dentrimental to the team then grounding into a bunch of double plays.
Also in Ryan Howards case he strikes out a lot more with bases empty or just runners on then he does when runners are in scoring position. So even with a bunch of strikeouts, he isnt hurting his team as much as you think. Or it isnt as bad as you think or not as terrible as you think.
I'll look up the stats,but I think that he struck out mostly in the first inning last year,but he did have quite a few strike outs with runners in scoring position.
Here is the best example that I can make about strike outs.Jim Thome tends to strike out quite a bit after the 7th inning,I know this because the Sox are my team and I watch almost every evening game that's on.He really can't be counted on in the late innings of a game,mostly because he strikes out a lot.Of course he'll have 35-40 HRs and 100-120 RBIs per season,but in the crunch,he being a big time strike out king,doesn't help out the team.
Now without having Howard's stats in front of me,and not following the Phillies on a daily basis,I really can't comment on if he can be relied on in the clutch or not because of his propensity for strike outs(if someone can provide that info it sure would be helpful),but when the pitchers match up with him,especially late in the game,you know that they are thinking strike out because that's what he does the most.If you look at his stats,for his career,he has stuck out more than anything else offensively in his career(BBs,HRs,RBIs,H,and Rs),and while he is a very good player,that's not a good stat to have.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/howarry01.shtml
Reggie Jackson is the all time strike out king,but the one thing that he knew how to do was get it done when it counted,and there is absolutely no disputing that as a fact.Howard is a very good player,and can possibly turn out to be a great player when his career is over,but will his propensity for striking out keep him from being world championship caliber? I don't know but I guess time will tell.
Thanks for apologizing. I also apologize to you for replying with similar insults.
Believe me when I tell you I'm reading and dissecting every word you say. I think what's probably frustrating you is that I'm making great points which are difficult to argue with.
To be honest, I thought I had already done that. Like when you compared Howard's stats last season to his MVP season. I made it clear that his MVP season was incredible, so of course his stats are going to be down, and they're even further down this year, but that doesn't mean they're bad. They're actually quite good, considering he's a cleanup hitter and it's his job to hit home runs and drive in runs, not avoid strikeouts and put the ball in play. Also, when you originally said that having 181 strikeouts means you're having a bad year, period. That's basically what you said and I think I proved that to be wrong by citing Howard's MVP season. The point about how many double plays he grounded into is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with strikeouts in the first place. The playoff stats are irrelevant because it was only 12 at-bats worth of evidence and it wasn't the issue to begin with, it was just a point that you added which had nothing to do with the original argument.
Yes, having 181 strikeouts is obviously not a good thing, having 1 strikeout isn't a good thing, but as I said before, having that many strikeouts isn't significant because both Howard and Vaughn, among others, have had great seasons and have played their role and played it well even while striking out so much.
Obviously not. Sorry, but this is pretty irrelevant as well. Stating the obvious.
I don't believe I said you said that, but you did say that he only hit .268 and that his OBP and slugging were down and all that, which would imply that you were saying he had an off season, but those numbers, like I said, were comparable to his career stats.
Well, yeah, he obviously did have gaudy power numbers and a lot of strikeouts, but that wasn't the issue. If it were, you and I would've agreed from the beginning. The issue came up when you said that 181 strikeouts makes your season bad, no matter what your other stats are. That's what I was originally disagreeing with, and I think you would disagree with that statement at this point too. That was the original argument, everything else just snowballed from there.
Well, you didn't say that, but you did ask me to explain how his playoff stats were good, and it seemed as if it was a rhetorical question. Another implication by what you said, that's all.
I do feel his playoff stats are irrelevant. First off, it was only 12 at-bats; secondly, he struck out a lot during the regular season too, but that did translate into victories, they won their division, I tried to make that point, but maybe you didn't see it. His goal probably is to win a championship, it should be anyway, but that doesn't mean he can't strikeout, even in the playoffs, if he were to average the same stats he's averaged during the regular season, including strikeouts, then his playoff stats would be pretty good and he'd be helping his team to win, since his role is to hit home runs and drive in runs.
Same with Reggie Jackson. He had more strikeouts than anything else too.
Reggie still struck out in the playoffs too though. His strikeout average was about the same as his regular season strikeout average for those seasons. So if you're a guy like Howard, Reggie, or Mo, then striking out isn't a big deal because their role is to hit home runs and drive in runs. Also, Howard has already shattered Reggie's career high HR(47), RBI(118), and batting average(.300) numbers, and Howard surpassed them all in one season.
You're right, it hasn't led to any championships yet, however that doesn't make the team unsuccessful. The fact that at any point in the past decade that the A's have even been mentioned as contenders speaks to fact that Billy Beane has done a tremendous job.
Am I satisfied not winning championships? No, I'm not, but:
A. The A's have gotten closer and closer every year to winning a championship since Beane took over, save for two years. In those two years he's completely changed the look of our franchise, giving it a younger and more talented nucleus of players who will lead our team into the future.
B. There's not much anybody can do. It's not Billy's fault he's in a small market, and I can't think of a single GM in the game that gives my team a better chance to win year in and year out than Billy Beane.
Like I said, no, we haven't won any championships under Beane's direction, but we've never had the sheer level of talent he's accumulated in the past 24 months. I'll take a few years of coming up short for many many years of winning it all.
How about what the Twins do every year,especially this year? No one gave them a chance when they traded Santana and Hunter,but those damn Twin seem to be in it every year.I would have to look it up,but I think they have been a better team or pretty close,record wise,than the A's over the past 5 seasons and they are a small market team.
But they both share one glaring fact,they can't get it done in October.Kinda frustrating if you ask me.It's kinda like what the Dallas Maverick do,good every year in the regular season,get to the playoff,then choke. I know that the people in Dallas aren't happy about their basketball team choking every year,just like the people in Minnesota and you guy out in Oakland aren't too pleased that your teams can't seem to get over the proverbial hump.
shayd, beane's other strength is knowing when to deal. for instance he knew santana would be on the market so by dealing haren when he did he got max value.then the swisher deal brought more talent and a better return than almost every deal at the deadline. Manny's playing hard because he want a new deal and once he gets it he will go back to being a frustratingtly great player. yes strikeouts suck but howard in his 4th year reminds me of mike schmidt at the same point i think howard can learn to cut down the strikeouts just like mike did.
red001
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Although I'm still not sold on Ryan Sweeney,it's looking like we got raped on that deal.Gio Gonzales is going to be a stud some day soon a didn't we give up DeLo Santos in that deal too?
The good news is that after they get a few year of being in the Majors,we'll probably be able to get them back,but we'll probably get raped again like Kenny Williams always seems to have happen to him.
And now I really know that you don't know what you're talking about.You pull up my first quote about Ryan Howard(199 strike outs),then you say that I said that he sucked so you use my quote when I was talking about Mo Vaughn(181 strike outs)?:wtf:
Like I said before,I had to re explain my position or were you not paying attention,I also said that after looking back at what I said the I guess I did contradict myself.I looked at the stats again and I felt that,o.k. it's a good season but there still are way too many strike outs.
So what's the deal dude? Are you just paying attention to the first thing that I said and ignoring what I said afterwards?
I'm done debating this with you because you obviously don't understand the point that I'm trying to make about sluggers and striking out.You feel that it's irrelevant,and that's your prerogative,so I'm done.
Soooo, how bout them Yankees? Welp, I got nothing, just trying to change the topic on sluggers hitting 50 HR's and amassing 200+ K's, eh so what. I got a team that didnt have a HR in 12 straight games, as well as nobody on the team having double digit HR's, it's the beginning of August and the team high is 9. So Im counting every run as a moral victory for the Giants and their futile effort to make contact with a baseball.
