What Is The World To Do With North Korea???

[Member2019]

Re: Again ...

Is this something you really love, Prof? You need to get out and smell the roses more Rest assured Prof, I don't respond to everything I read, but if this is a thread where you're saying stoopid stuff, I'll be there to "fact check":thumbsup:

So why don't you do both myself and miles123 while you're at it?

You don't. You wait until I'm in a thread, making a sole argument that others aren't supporting. Then you and possibly two or all three of you in the trinity jump on me. You press, say things like I'm pulling things out of my ass, etc... in the hope I will react.

Again, go fuck yourself if you can't make a point, but want to question mine. Honestly, I'd like to talk, but you don't want to.

I could care less about North Korea, Pakistan, Iran, India or any other country that has been linked in the news with Nuke testing or attempts to acquire nukes.

But apparently you do.

We should go back to economic sanctions as our primary response to countries that do things we don't like. Aren't we a capitalist country?

I don't know. Ask the Japanese instead of us. Seriously. They have some real bitches with North Korea.

As always, this is never about just the US. It's about more than just the US. It's about other countries looking to the US. And the US is getting conflicting desires from various allies, the international community, even before it gets to the nation(s) of the issue(s).

We've lost thousands of American soldiers' lives and wasted $1-$3Trillion in a country we thought (or were lied to about) had a ton of shit. They had nothing.

And as I said, the Obama administration agrees! But that doesn't mean it's ignoring North Korea or Afghanistan. That's been his hallmark since the campaign, that the real issues for the US and its allies have been those two nations, not Iraq.

So, let's talk that. Oh, what, you found one argument that says US policy is flawed? Why stop there? The US has numerous, foreign policies that are flawed.

Reagan did. Bush Sr. did. Clinton did. W. had many. Obama will have his.

And yet, the US is still involved. Heck, the US' liabilities and responsibilities start back in the early '90s. What do you say we do? Do we just stop delivering on those? Do we deliver the goods to North Korea, and whatever else they ask? What do we do?

What do we do? Please answer me that if you are going to respond to me.

I think it is prudent right now, especially since our economy has crumbled, people have lost and are losing jobs and homes, to focus on domestic matters and let other nations take the lead with North Korea. :dunno:

And here's the thing.

Aren't I the American that says ... "we need to pull back to the Americas, and forget the rest of the world." It worked very well for us. We're far too stretched.

I don't disagree. Unfortunately, Japan, Taiwan and others might take issue with that, among others.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

Isn't Kim Jong on record stating they have some 20 million boots on the ground? That's a serious military force there (assuming that's not some outlandish claim). :hatsoff:

 

[laxe]

Isn't Kim Jong on record stating they have some 20 million boots on the ground? That's a serious military force there (assuming that's not some outlandish claim). :hatsoff:

It's a lie, the guy is so full of shit.

 

[Member2019]

The question is capability ...

Isn't Kim Jong on record stating they have some 20 million boots on the ground? That's a serious military force there (assuming that's not some outlandish claim). :hatsoff:

The question is always capability, regardless of numbers and toys. For the most part, North Korea has jack. They also don't have an ideology that would support a great insurgency.

The main threat here is their artillery aimed at nearby Seoul. That is a very, credible threat. Deterrence, counter-deterrence, counter-counter-deterrence, threat, counter-threat, counter-counter-threat.

It's not about who would win. It's even about how many have to die. It's about how many could die, at what point, after reaching what point, and what that next point is.

North Korea keeps escalating their activities and actions, including countless violations against Japan and, in some cases, even American and South Korean forces. In the past, there has been South Korean or China that has appeased them to a point.

That is now gone. The question is, at what point does the regime feel it has nothing to lose by going to the next step? Will North Korea make the move of actually sending a few "warning shells" across the DMZ? And how do we react? What if we mis-react?

There was a great movie in the '80s called By Dawn's Early Light. It was hardly original in plot, but it is a repeat theme -- from WWI to WWII, themes revisited by JFK during the Cuban Missile Crisis when a key, respected man from a previous administration admitted, "hopefully cooler heads will prevail" when JFK was faced with the reality that his actions would actually result in war in Europe.

Sometimes its the actions that are misinterpreted by nations -- and before you know it -- what is a warning shot, or even just a chance engagement, death of soldiers, etc... is taken as something worse, and a reaction results, which sends yet another signal, and then it's on. The Flashpoint. North Korea has prompted several close ones, by killing people, real South Koreans.

It's based on the assumption that a nation knows what its actions will be taken as by the other nation. The problem is that assumption. Because, as what happened in WWI, then again in WWII, and the Korean War (the US push into North Korea), etc... the assumptions are hardly the reality.

No one debates who would win a war. People only debate how many South Koreans would die, in the early minutes, and how that could happen over a misunderstanding, a reaction, a counter-reaction, and the quick escalation. Especially when the US and its allies do nothing, and North Korea keeps escalating it on its own, unilaterally, and blame it on the US.

 

[kurtman1]

a threat to south Korea and to the nations that do not have any effective military respond to nuclear warheads.

 

[titsrock]

Alright Prof-

And yet, the US is still involved. Heck, the US' liabilities and responsibilities start back in the early '90s. What do you say we do? Do we just stop delivering on those? Do we deliver the goods to North Korea, and whatever else they ask? What do we do?

What do we do? Please answer me that if you are going to respond to me.

Are you talking in abstract metaphor? What debts do we owe North Korea? As for economic sanctions--perhaps it's time to treat North Korea like Cuba and restrict all U.S. travel and corporate trade. If we've already issued our own sanctions against North Korea, then it's time to rally the U.N. and local countries to create a broader set of economic sanctions.

If Japan has war crimes issues with Korea (North or South) that is for Japan to settle, not us.

You seem to be going into a Chicken Little the sky is falling routine over this recent North Korea development and, while alarming it may be, it is not at the level of escalation or threats. We don't need to dare Kim Jong il to "knock the pack of smokes off our shoulder," but since he is a huge Elvis fan, that may be a wise diplomatic strategy to employ someday:dunno:

You have specifically told me to fuck myself twice, but I have not lost my temper to you tonight or in a long time. Logic and Reason go hand in hand with Emotion.:wave2:

 

[Member2019]

What debts do we owe North Korea?

I absolutely rest my case.

You did this circular thing, as you do. You will say there are none, then circle back, then dismiss it as none again, then circle back, etc... If you knew anything about the obligations the US has to North Korea in countless agreements, and how we've been honoring those (even during the "allegedly troublesome years of W."), you'd know where I'm coming from, the US is coming from, South Korea is coming from, and where Japan is coming from.

But it's even beyond that ...

As for economic sanctions--perhaps it's time to treat North Korea like Cuba and restrict all U.S. travel and corporate trade.

Again, I strongly suggest you read up. Because any time the US makes moves, it is announced by North Korea as an escalation by the US. In some cases, the US does nothing, and it's announced as an escalation by North Korea.

In the post-9/11 crackdown in the IMF and world banks, the US started hitting North Korean funds as a result of what those funds were actually involved with. That too was announced as an escalation. Doesn't matter if the UN and every other nation was involved, under a non-US jurisdiction, it was the US.

I hope you really get to what we're talking about. When we leave them alone, we don't leave them alone. And that's before we even consider the bi-lateral agreements we have to live up to, and North Korea constantly states we do not -- despite even China and Russia telling them otherwise, including in the UN Security Council.

If we've already issued our own sanctions against North Korea, then it's time to rally the U.N. and local countries to create a broader set of economic sanctions.

OMG. When the UN issues sanctions, North Korea announces the US has escalated tensions -- the US, not the UN that actually passed the resolution, or the other nations that enforce it, only the US. That's why you keep thinking it's only the US!

No more on the bi-lateral side, understand that even the threat of the US to cut off its obligations under the 1994 agreement is considered a "declaration of war" by North Korea. This has led to engagements in various situations, both before and during W. The US hasn't entertain that until shortly after 9/11, not to be repeated.

If you have even bothered to follow the history on this, you would know this. This has not been about the US. In fact, the whole shift in the W. policy was to remove the bi-lateral framework, and move to the six-party system, so there was no question who was at fault, and why any UN sanctions came about. Obama has been keen on continuing this.

The bi-lateral agreements (e.g., 1994) actually caused the problem, as everyone else in the six party talks also agrees. But they are a legacy agreement the US still lives up to, because it honors its agreements. The problem for North Korea is that there are now 4 other nations saying, "the US is living up to its agreements, you're not, so that's why you're being punished by the UN, not the US."

I honestly give up. No sense in responding further. And yes, go fuck yourself. You're not interested in intelligent discussion. You are only interested in your cycle, and you will let that spill over to other threads, regardless of relevance -- any threads except where someone else discusses with me, which you won't touch. Because that other person might give you similar answers to myself.

Again, go fuck yourself. That's not me getting upset, angry or otherwise "beating my chest." It means go fuck yourself, instead of trying to fuck with me in the hope those select, other few that just want to jump on me do -- like someone joined you in the NBA thread.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

The question is always capability, regardless of numbers and toys. For the most part, North Korea has jack. They also don't have an ideology that would support a great insurgency.

The main threat here is their artillery aimed at nearby Seoul. That is a very, credible threat. Deterrence, counter-deterrence, counter-counter-deterrence, threat, counter-threat, counter-counter-threat.

It's not about who would win. It's even about how many have to die. It's about how many could die, at what point, after reaching what point, and what that next point is.

North Korea keeps escalating their activities and actions, including countless violations against Japan and, in some cases, even American and South Korean forces. In the past, there has been South Korean or China that has appeased them to a point.

That is now gone. The question is, at what point does the regime feel it has nothing to lose by going to the next step? Will North Korea make the move of actually sending a few "warning shells" across the DMZ? And how do we react? What if we mis-react?

There was a great movie in the '80s called By Dawn's Early Light. It was hardly original in plot, but it is a repeat theme -- from WWI to WWII, themes revisited by JFK during the Cuban Missile Crisis when a key, respected man from a previous administration admitted, "hopefully cooler heads will prevail" when JFK was faced with the reality that his actions would actually result in war in Europe.

Sometimes its the actions that are misinterpreted by nations -- and before you know it -- what is a warning shot, or even just a chance engagement, death of soldiers, etc... is taken as something worse, and a reaction results, which sends yet another signal, and then it's on. The Flashpoint. North Korea has prompted several close ones, by killing people, real South Koreans.

It's based on the assumption that a nation knows what its actions will be taken as by the other nation. The problem is that assumption. Because, as what happened in WWI, then again in WWII, and the Korean War (the US push into North Korea), etc... the assumptions are hardly the reality.

No one debates who would win a war. People only debate how many South Koreans would die, in the early minutes, and how that could happen over a misunderstanding, a reaction, a counter-reaction, and the quick escalation. Especially when the US and its allies do nothing, and North Korea keeps escalating it on its own, unilaterally, and blame it on the US.

Yes, he is apparently full of it: http://www.globalfirepower.com/ http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=North-Korea
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/kn-korea-north/mil-military Not even close to 20 million.

 

[Member2019]

Yes, he is apparently full of it: http://www.globalfirepower.com/ http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=North-Korea
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/kn-korea-north/mil-military Not even close to 20 million.

Scratching my head on why you quoted me. I don't see the context. You probably wanted to quote this response instead ...
http://board.freeones.com/showpost.php?p=3266904&postcount=49
"It's a lie, the guy is so full of shit." (guy = Kim Jong)

No big deal, but I'm sure the trinity (among a few, select others) would love to jump in this thread take your phrase:
"Yes, he is apparently full of it" (guy = ???)
And think you're responding to me, given you quoted me, and not talking about Kim Jong.

"See, even another person thought ProfV was full of it."

 

[24788]

South Korea is an awesome country. North Korea better not even think about fucking with them again.

 

[myckets]

South Korea is an awesome country. North Korea better not even think about fucking with them again.

They may bomb Japan too.

 

[Member2019]

North Korea v. Japan ...

They may bomb Japan too.

I'd like to see them try.

US Command'n Control tracks everything coming out of North Korea these days. US PAC-3 and THAAD batteries have been deployed. It's one of the assurances we gave Japan.

Fixed wing or ballistic, it's coming down in the ocean before it hits Japan, likely shreded by pure, kinetic force.

 

[afkallthetiem]

They may bomb Japan too.

lol wishful thinking much?

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

Scratching my head on why you quoted me. I don't see the context. You probably wanted to quote this response instead ...
http://board.freeones.com/showpost.php?p=3266904&postcount=49
"It's a lie, the guy is so full of shit." (guy = Kim Jong)

No big deal, but I'm sure the trinity (among a few, select others) would love to jump in this thread take your phrase:
"Yes, he is apparently full of it" (guy = ???)
And think you're responding to me, given you quoted me, and not talking about Kim Jong.

"See, even another person thought ProfV was full of it."

Yes, I was referring to Kim Jong. They do, however, have as many boots as America does, if not more.

NK:
Active Military Personnel: 1,170,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 4,700,000 [2008]

USA:
Active Military Personnel: 1,385,122 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 1,458,500 [2008]


Pretty sad. We all know the stagerring amount America spends on its military every year, so that's not to say we wouldn't topple NK in probably a couple weeks, it's just telling about the mind of youngsters today. Eventually a draft will have to be implementd at the rate we are going (I think mandatory 1-2 years would only be fitting).

 

[Member2019]

Pretty sad.

There is a huge difference in training costs, plus you're ignoring the Command'n Control capabilities of the US (one of the major reasons why we have some of our allies), etc... Standard equipment varies greatly.

I mean, the type of body armor issued as standard greatly increases the difference. And sure, North Korea has artillery aimed at Seoul, but will it be remotely as effective when it's trying to deal with real-time fire missions on advancing troops?

Eventually a draft will have to be implementd at the rate we are going (I think mandatory 1-2 years would only be fitting).

Unfortunately, that would reduce the quality of the soldiers. We're already seeing it due to the on-going wars and the number of individuals unwilling to join, that may have joined in peacetime, as a result.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

Unfortunately, that would reduce the quality of the soldiers. We're already seeing it due to the on-going wars and the number of individuals unwilling to join, that may have joined in peacetime, as a result.

I'm not so sure about that. I know some pretty damn able-bodied males that were tough SOB's growing up; great athletes; just plain able. Some of the standard GI's, with all due respect, seem to be of the redneck, backwoods, shoot-em-up type. I respect their service, but I just know so many cats growing up that were likely better suited to serve than the standard GI. Maybe I'm wrong though. :dunno:

 

[Red Spyder]

All I can say, I'm glad I live way in South Texas and not in California, Alaska, Washington state, Oregon, or Hawaii that might be within range of their long range nuclear tipped missiles.

But like it or not, the NK's should have been dealt with a long time ago before they were able to develop nuclear weapons but were still acting very beligerent, just that back then we had leaders who wanted "peace in our time" and now this generation is going to have to deal with a nuclear armed NK and if back then they expected 50,000 casualties to our side, now it's going to be even worse. Let that be a lesson to you, kiddies, attack the bad guys BEFORE they become too powerful.

But....going to war with NK may lead to war with the Chicoms just like the first time around and what NK is doing now is exactly what dictators do when they perceive our leader to be weak (wheter the Big O is weak or not doesn't matter, it's how he's perceived to be)

 

[Facetious]

Originally Posted by titsrock View Post
We've lost thousands of American soldiers' lives and wasted $1-$3Trillion in a country we thought (or were lied to about) had a ton of shit. They had nothing.

Granted, ''w'' did a horrible job in articulating the means of why we went to war in Iraq, but didn't Saddam Huss. elect to violate the terms of "the no fly zone" on several occasions ?
And wasn't there multiple tons of yellow cake *siezed within the boundaries of Iraq ?
And doesn't yellow cake show intent of manufacturing WMD ?

And wasn't there a "UNITED NATIONS Resolution 1441" drafted by the "world community" in or about 1991 which Sad Huss gave signature to?
Had you read UN 1441 in all of it's abundantly boring rhetorical legalese, you will eventually come to find that war with Iraq was not illegal.

And didn't the American forces find some well hidden Migs that the Iraqis were not supposed to have according to UN 1441 ? :laugh:

What fucked up the "war in Iraq" was this idea that we we going to employ this concept of "hearts & minds". e.g. send troops out every day and surgically go door to door knock knock. That's an impossible strategy and it's costs are overwhelming us at the present time, IMO. Just bomb and blitz selected assets, do what ya gotta on the ground including the unfortunate collateral killing of civvies if you have to get the bad guy, and get the fuck outta there !

You have specifically told me to fuck myself twice, but I have not lost my temper to you tonight or in a long time.

Sure, you might not have lost your temper but, in nearly every post you can't seem to resist going below the belt with your unsolicited cocky and arrogant
ad hominem (s).

Face it, Tits, whether you want to recognize it or not, Prof knows his shit in the areas of the sciences as well as geo politics. Just because you disagree with the man in certain (or most) accounts doesn't mean that, he's "pulling things out of . . somewhere".

It's funny to read your debates with Prof -

With each and every post, you let out just a little bit - o - steam with your aforementioned insulting dialect (presumably out of frustration because of Profs well learned and applied knowledge)
and with that, you p.o Prof, as you would anybody else, and Prof lets it build up a bit and all of the sudden -
%#@K ¥£w ! :1orglaugh

 

[Facetious]

I could care less about North Korea, Pakistan, Iran, India or any other country that has been linked in the news with Nuke testing or attempts to acquire nukes

Really ? The whole proliferation factor doesn't just make the stubbies on your neck stand up ? What if NK puts one on a missile and detonates it high and mighty (as a "test"), thus causing an electromagnetic pulse . . do you have any idea what that would do to line of sight electronics ?

What isn't electronic these days ?

It's always easy to deny that threats, in fact, do exist, but when the actual
shit hits the fan, and it will, the affected civilians will be going at each other's throat killing one another . .
"I f'en told you so, you appeasing weakling bastid !"

It's better to sometimes offend a few at times as you prevent total chaos,
at least that's what my senses tell me.

 

[Member2019]

Really ? The whole proliferation factor doesn't just make the stubbies on your neck stand up ? What if NK puts one on a missile and detonates it high and mighty (as a "test"), thus causing an electromagnetic pulse . . do you have any idea what that would do to line of sight electronics ?

That is the #1 reason for national missile defense (NMD) capability. Theater (TMD) doesn't cut it. It's why Japan is pissed every time a North Korean missile is launched over their territory. It only takes one to cause trillions of dollars of damage.

One of these days I'm going to write a book and people are going to read it and go, "wow, I never realized how a seemingly innocent action could destroy a nation's entire infrastructure." And people say they don't understand what's the big deal about 9/11? I rest my case.