The Terri Schiavo situation.

[McRocket]

Alot of people also died for the United States of America, that doesn't make the United States of America inherintly bad. There is no way to measure how many people have been saved by religion, so you can't say far less to any degree of certainty. You may think religion is a complete and total waste of time. That's cool. But that doesn't make religious people bad or zealots.

I don't even know what A zealot is?

And as for religious people being bad. I never typed that. And I do not think that about religious people in particular. I judge people by one thing above all else; how they treat others.

And as for the number of people that religion has saved. Well, the only way to know if they were 'saved' would be to go to heaven and take a count. That is religion's reward, generally. BElieve in our god/saviour and we promise you everlasting life after death. Considering there is no known way to prove it, that is a pretty weak promise.
So we don't know just how many (if any) have been saved. But we KNOW that millions have died in the name of religion. So the known count, as far as I am concerned, is WAY against religion.

 

[member2686]

He was talking to me, I believe, mcrocket. No need to defend your position. He's a teenaged fundie and wants to "save us," on a porn board. Hypocrites... lmao

Can I get an "Amen?!?!?!" "Hallelujah!"

:eek: :rofl: :thefinger

 

[XanderJack]

I was raised in a southern baptist household. So I know all about that conservative bullshit. Listen ILTS, her husband, he has a life to live, he needs to live it. You cannot expect him to stay married to her until she dies while on support. But he cannot divorice her either, because how would it look to divorice a vegetable. Everyone personally involved with this needs peace of mind. What I don't get about conservative christians is that they believe when the soul dies, it goes to a better place. WHY NOT LET HER SOUL GO TO A BETTER PLACE!!!! Her soul is imprisoned right now, do you not get that. I wish these "compassionate conservatives" would actually be compassionate.

 

[member2686]

You're getting good rep (when I can give to you again) for that post, XanderJack!!! AMEN!!! Let the woman go to be with her God...

 

[eschnabel]

First off, Terri Shaivo is not and has never been an animal. When someone is born a human, they have rights under the constitution and no matter what happens to them in the course of their life, they should still have those rights. I'm sorry to all the animal people out there, but Animals are not protected under the constitution in any amount of degree as people are. Animals are actually considered personal property. But you do bring up an interesting point: the same people that always complain about the migration patterns of the Alaskan Caribou are the same people that desire, above all else, that Terri Shaivo die.

Also, my main point all along, this idea that these are her wishes is SOLELY based on the word of the supposed husband, who now has kids with another woman.

"Selfish desires of the ones that love her." I don't know what to say to that. Put yourself in the parent's shoes. There is no documentation that these were her wishes however there is nothing they can do to stop her death.

How can a lifeless body be hurt by anything?

First off, it's pretty ovious you didn't read what I wrote. The first part was an observation about the ironic use of the word humanitarian. Look up the word and you will understand.
Secondly, I never said that she would "wish" to have her life ended in a situation like this. I said there is a good chance. I can't imagine anyone, who, when asked the question "If you happened to become a vegetable tomorrow, would you want to live that way the rest of your life?" and say then yes.
Thirdly, I don't have to put my feet in her parents shoes because this is not about them, it's about Terri and what's best for her! If it is about anything else then the motives are selfish. Look up the word if you don't understand.
I don't mean to be critical, but it really seems you didn't understand anything I wrote. The problem is that she isn't a lifeless body. To give you an analogy, if she were a car there would be no one behind the wheel. She's just sitting there idling and will never do anything else.
One thing I think a lot of people don't understand is that science does not have the technology to know whether or not a person in a vegetable state is feeling pain. As a matter of fact, they can't gauge anyones pain definitively. Terri is not brain dead. The part of her brain that is still active controls the autonomic nervous system as well as the primitive instincts like fear and pain. Science doesn't know what's going on there, but, on paper, there is a chance here body could be experiencing pain and fear.
So, to say it again, she will never get better. When posed with the question, I can't imagine anyone that's would want to be a vegetable. Lastly, we don't know what, if anything, she is experiencing, and knowing what we know, keeping her alive only benifits her loved ones and is not in her best intrest.

 

[eschnabel]

I also just wanted to add to the statements about her starving to death. There are certainly worse ways to go, but this can't be good and I would not want to experience it. That beening said, starvation is the only legal way to allow her to die since this country doesn't believe in euthanasia or assisted suicide (later one doesn't apply). It's sad that's the only choice, but the majority voted it that way. I wish people could think long term and truely understand the consequences of their decisions.

 

[foxycougar]

When the hospital takes out the feeding tube the individual goes into a coma a few days later so they're not conscious when they actually pass away, no brain activity.

 

[Jizm]

This should not be a government intervention.

 

[SimonPhoenix]

Some of you are really missing the point.
it does not matter at all whether YOU would want to live or die in that condition. Personally, I would probably prefer death also.
but that is irrelevant. It is a legal matter.
this woman has only 20% of her brain physically remaining.
But it is enough to keep her breathing and her heart beating on her own.
She only needs the assistance of others to feed her and keep her hydrated.
Food and water.We all need that.
the ruling is essentially death by starvation. Pretty damn painful way to go.This ruling opens up alot of cans of worms. Example:some elderly people can not feed themselves without help. Should it be up to her"legal" next of kin
to decide if she lives. or a person with no arms or legs?..Or a deaf dumb and blind person? or severe retardation?...Who decides? .Now where will it end?
Also, There is no document regarding this womans wishes.
We are going on the word of her husband. A man who curently has another family with children now. Her parents, the people who gave her life, want her alive. Realistally, should they not have the ultimate decision? rather than a man who signed a liscense 20 years ago?
But that is another legal issue.
The womans heart beats on its own....Who really has the right to decide she must die?
the decisions been made,one sick thing is that the people who make these decisions can not also offer a humane way of death.
too much buracracy and political correctness there.
If they proposed a humane way of death, I guess we better let kevorkian go free(if he's even still alive).
Its all f***ed up. Which is why this should not have been touched by government in the first place.

For the person who said hillary in 2008. that would solve this problem for sure.
If that happens we'll all be dead, literally.

 

[Brino]

First off, Terri Shaivo is not and has never been an animal. When someone is born a human, they have rights under the constitution and no matter what happens to them in the course of their life, they should still have those rights. I'm sorry to all the animal people out there, but Animals are not protected under the constitution in any amount of degree as people are. Animals are actually considered personal property. But you do bring up an interesting point: the same people that always complain about the migration patterns of the Alaskan Caribou are the same people that desire, above all else, that Terri Shaivo die.

Also, my main point all along, this idea that these are her wishes is SOLELY based on the word of the supposed husband, who now has kids with another woman.

"Selfish desires of the ones that love her." I don't know what to say to that. Put yourself in the parent's shoes. There is no documentation that these were her wishes however there is nothing they can do to stop her death.

How can a lifeless body be hurt by anything?

If you were in the same position as Terri Schiavo would you want to die or would you want to remain a vegetable for the rest of your life?

 

[Brino]

A man who curently has another family with children now. Her parents, the people who gave her life, want her alive. Realistally, should they not have the ultimate decision? rather than a man who signed a liscense 20 years ago?

What happens when her parents die? It's likely that her parents will die before her so then who will be left to care for her? The Hospital!? I don't think so. I sympatize with the parents but they have to realize that their daughter is gone.

btw I certainly don't want her to die of starvation but unfortunately there is no other legal way of letting her pass.

 

[harold]

I agree with you ILTS2009. If we are not positive of her wishes; I think it is better to err on the side of life.
Suppose. Just suppose; that a remedy for her condition is found 30 seconds after she starves to death?
And, on top of that, starving someone to death? Not the most pleasant way to go I imagine. Right now, as we speak, she is (I assume) starving. Some facit of her body is calling out for food and people around her are letting her die. We better hope she is completely out of it. Imagine if she understands and feels pain?

Keep it up ILTS 2009.

ok first of all the husband HAS final say in the matter but for the fucking sake of clarity this terribly sad story shows how important it is for every one to fill out a living will and a power of attourny!

 

[harold]

If you were in the same position as Terri Schiavo would you want to die or would you want to remain a vegetable for the rest of your life?

i don't think she has much of a choice. she is going to be a vegetable for the rest of her life.

 

[ÆGEAN]

i am not saying anything about this issue coz this IS NOT THE PLACE to talk about this in my opinion.

 

[Dean Wormer]

How about this for an unsettling scenario? While she has no voluntary response mechanisms suppose she has a wisp of consciousness and is, on some small scale, aware that she is in this dark, possibly painful void? Imagine for the past 15 years she has been feeling that. She, of course, would not realize that it has been 15 years only that it has been going on for what must seem like forever to her. A haunting similarity to the book/movie "Johnny Got His Gun".

 

[XanderJack]

For the person who said hillary in 2008. that would solve this problem for sure.
If that happens we'll all be dead, literally.

WARNING, WARNING, Pro-Bush alert, Pro-Bush alert. :1orglaugh :thefinger

 

[Reptile]

This discussion started well and has now descended into a farce. I believe she should pass away peacefully, as there is no chance of her having some life again. I dont give a fuck about the parents, or the husband, or pro life campaigner, or politics, or religious beliefs - this woman will not recover. People are playing "God" here - God / natural process of life and death (delete as applicable) killed this woman long ago.

But now you all seem as bad as the groups using her for political gain and all that shit. Nightfly is sounding more like a religious zealot with his one sided and overtly stubborn standpoint than anyone, people are comparing this poor woman to animals and murderers... about the only person talking anything like sense is ILikeTheSun, and he has the totally opposite view to me on this.

Reptile

 

[member2686]

Christ...my eyes!!! Use a legible font, Reptile!!! lol

As to what you wrote, I agree with most of what you said. Am I intolerant? YES. I am intolerant of ignorance and needless political manipulation by people who CLAIM to give a shit but who grab the flag of whatever issue is personally and politically expedient to them. It's disgusting.

As I stated before, the so-called "compassionate conservatives" have tried to hijack this issue, and it's been a big flop for them, exposing them for the B.S. artists they really are.

2008 cannot come quickly enough.

This discussion started well and has now descended into a farce. I believe she should pass away peacefully, as there is no chance of her having some life again. I dont give a fuck about the parents, or the husband, or pro life campaigner, or politics, or religious beliefs - this woman will not recover. People are playing "God" here - God / natural process of life and death (delete as applicable) killed this woman long ago.

But now you all seem as bad as the groups using her for political gain and all that shit. Nightfly is sounding more like a religious zealot with his one sided and overtly stubborn standpoint than anyone, people are comparing this poor woman to animals and murderers... about the only person talking anything like sense is ILikeTheSun, and he has the totally opposite view to me on this.

Reptile

 

[McRocket]

Some of you are really missing the point.
it does not matter at all whether YOU would want to live or die in that condition. Personally, I would probably prefer death also.
but that is irrelevant. It is a legal matter.
this woman has only 20% of her brain physically remaining.
But it is enough to keep her breathing and her heart beating on her own.
She only needs the assistance of others to feed her and keep her hydrated.
Food and water.We all need that.
the ruling is essentially death by starvation. Pretty damn painful way to go.This ruling opens up alot of cans of worms. Example:some elderly people can not feed themselves without help. Should it be up to her"legal" next of kin
to decide if she lives. or a person with no arms or legs?..Or a deaf dumb and blind person? or severe retardation?...Who decides? .Now where will it end?
Also, There is no document regarding this womans wishes.
We are going on the word of her husband. A man who curently has another family with children now. Her parents, the people who gave her life, want her alive. Realistally, should they not have the ultimate decision? rather than a man who signed a liscense 20 years ago?
But that is another legal issue.
The womans heart beats on its own....Who really has the right to decide she must die?
the decisions been made,one sick thing is that the people who make these decisions can not also offer a humane way of death.
too much buracracy and political correctness there.
If they proposed a humane way of death, I guess we better let kevorkian go free(if he's even still alive).
Its all f***ed up. Which is why this should not have been touched by government in the first place.

For the person who said hillary in 2008. that would solve this problem for sure.
If that happens we'll all be dead, literally.

Nice first post. Other then the Hilary part - I am not really pro or con on her yet - I agree with pretty much everything you typed.
I bet you that all severly physically disabled people across America are just a little more nervous then they were two or three weeks ago.
Without written authorization from the person in question; you should not be able to just snuff someone out whenever you feel like it - for any reason. It is not for others to decide whether we would want to end our lives if we were vegetables or not. It is only for the person lieing there.
And someone above typed that the husband needs to be able to get on with his life - or something like that. I don't give a crap how inconvenient this is for the husband. It's her (and all others like her) that I am worried about. Find a letter or videotape of her saying that this is what she would want under these circumstances, and I am all for it. Until then, I am not.

BTW Welcome Simon Phoenix

 

[XanderJack]

It is not for others to decide whether we would want to end our lives if we were vegetables or not. It is only for the person lieing there.

She is not alive, she is being aided by a machine. Ok, so if it is totally up to her whether she lives or dies, lets take her off all machines and let her decide. Seriously, if you are going to play this "it is her deision thing", then you have to take her off the machine. Her mind is dead, so the only thing she has left is her body. So take the body off the machine and let it decide if it will live or die. That would be fair wouldn't it?