The Acorning of Planned Parenthood.

[Jagger69]

Now I want to correctly understand you. It sounds like you’re saying that if I can’t have first-hand knowledge of a person’s experience, then I can’t make moral judgments against what they do. Is that what you’re trying to say?

No....read the post again. I said that although I personally have a moral issue with it that I don't believe it to be fair for me to impose those morals on an entire gender with whom I could never share the experience of having an unwanted pregnancy. Conversely, you are certainly free to make whatever moral judgments against them you choose.

Horror?

Think about it: You've planned out the next few years of your life, higher education, career, or even saving for the future, and actually be in a place to support a family. The condom broke, you were raped, or you just made a stupid decision in the heat of the moment. Suddenly your pregnant, the rest of your life has drastically changed. The chance for an education has dropped drastically; starting a high workload career, good luck; the chance of saving for a family you can actually support, maybe in thirty years.

Now you will need to come up with tens of thousands of dollars just to get through the pregnancy, and the first year. The guy that is just as responsible as you for this is nowhere to be found, and you will need a lawyer to get him to man up financially. If you go to Planned Parenthood you will have to wade through people shouting at you, calling you a murderer even if your there for the prenatal care. If you keep the pregnancy, and get social assistance every time you watch the news you will hear politicians calling you a leech, a deadbeat, and a drain on society. Those people who called you a murderer? Now they point fingers at you, call you a whore, slut, or hussy while telling you that you should have kept an aspirin between your knees.

Being eighteen, finding out your pregnant, knowing all of the above is one possible future? I can imagine being terrified, and horrified at those prospects. Doesn't matter what decision is ultimately made, "horror" would be an emotion that I would experience at some point if it could have/would've happened to me

I couldn't have explained it any better. :thumbsup:

 

[Jack Davenport]

Think about it: You've planned out the next few years of your life, higher education, career, or even saving for the future, and actually be in a place to support a family. The condom broke, you were raped, or you just made a stupid decision in the heat of the moment. Suddenly your pregnant, the rest of your life has drastically changed. The chance for an education has dropped drastically; starting a high workload career, good luck; the chance of saving for a family you can actually support, maybe in thirty years.

Now you will need to come up with tens of thousands of dollars just to get through the pregnancy, and the first year. The guy that is just as responsible as you for this is nowhere to be found, and you will need a lawyer to get him to man up financially. If you go to Planned Parenthood you will have to wade through people shouting at you, calling you a murderer even if your there for the prenatal care. If you keep the pregnancy, and get social assistance every time you watch the news you will hear politicians calling you a leech, a deadbeat, and a drain on society. Those people who called you a murderer? Now they point fingers at you, call you a whore, slut, or hussy while telling you that you should have kept an aspirin between your knees.

Being eighteen, finding out your pregnant, knowing all of the above is one possible future? I can imagine being terrified, and horrified at those prospects. Doesn't matter what decision is ultimately made, "horror" would be an emotion that I would experience at some point if it could have/would've happened to me

Think about it, You've planned out the next few years of your life, higher education, career, or even saving for the future, and actually be in a place to support a family. The condom broke, you were raped, or you just made a stupid decision in the heat of the moment. Suddenly your pregnant, the rest of your life has drastically changed. The chance for an education has dropped drastically; starting a high workload career, good luck; the chance of saving for a family you can actually support, maybe in thirty years. So you have an abortion or 6 and continue pursuing your education and accumulate 250,000 dollars in student loans. Get married, have 2.5 children ,obligate yourself for a 30 year mortgage, struggle to make ends meet on 75,000 dollars a year. Vote for politicians that promise free college for your 2.5 children only to run up our debt to the brink of national bankruptcy. Increase healthcare premiums to 3 times what they were in college. Meanwhile illegal aliens are crossing the border in droves having 4.5 babies per senorita and each child qualifies for public assistance. The government taps your 401k and future social security benefits to pay for your kids' free college and benefits for 20 million anchor babies. Your neighbors are pointing their finger and whispering behind your back because you are in foreclosure or a short sale driving down their property values. Probably should have had the [NOBABE]kid[/NOBABE] and started a landscaping business.

 

[BlkHawk]

Think about it, You've planned out the next few years of your life, higher education, career, or even saving for the future, and actually be in a place to support a family. The condom broke, you were raped, or you just made a stupid decision in the heat of the moment. Suddenly your pregnant, the rest of your life has drastically changed. The chance for an education has dropped drastically; starting a high workload career, good luck; the chance of saving for a family you can actually support, maybe in thirty years. So you have an abortion or 6 and continue pursuing your education and accumulate 250,000 dollars in student loans. Get married, have 2.5 children ,obligate yourself for a 30 year mortgage, struggle to make ends meet on 75,000 dollars a year. Vote for politicians that promise free college for your 2.5 children only to run up our debt to the brink of national bankruptcy. Increase healthcare premiums to 3 times what they were in college. Meanwhile illegal aliens are crossing the border in droves having 4.5 babies per senorita and each child qualifies for public assistance. The government taps your 401k and future social security benefits to pay for your kids' free college and benefits for 20 million anchor babies. Your neighbors are pointing their finger and whispering behind your back because you are in foreclosure or a short sale driving down their property values. Probably should have had the [NOBABE]kid[/NOBABE] and started a landscaping business.

You asked why someone would experience horror at discovering they are pregnant, I gave one scenario, ask yourself if you were an eighteen year old woman in that spot, no matter your ultimate decision, would you experience a moment of horror at the thought of what could happen in the near future? To me a moment of horror at that thought seems entirely possible. Personally I would have been scared shitless!

 

[Jack Davenport]

A human life would not cause me to experience feelings of horror. Disappointment in myself, a period of depression, anxiety in having my life plans rattled and a period of adjustment, perhaps. Horror, no.

 

[BlkHawk]

A human life would not cause me to experience feelings of horror. Disappointment in myself, a period of depression, anxiety in having my life plans rattled and a period of adjustment, perhaps. Horror, no.

You are either far stronger than I am, or I have a deeper understanding of my own human weaknesses. Either way I thank you for answering!

 

[Jack Davenport]

Horror for me is a beating heart stopping when the skull is crushed and the brain is extracted. But then that's just me.

 

[BlkHawk]

Horror for me is a beating heart stopping when the skull is crushed and the brain is extracted. But then that's just me.

Hmm similar for me, also for some self righteous groups trying to prevent access to the day after pill because they believe life begins at conception. Using it prevents the fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus and developing into the late term fetus you are describing. But then that's just me.

 

[Jack Davenport]

It is more reasonable to believe that life does begin at conception, than some other viewpoint that it does not because to do so would be admitting that abortion is the taking of a human life. But then again that's just semantics.

 

[BlkHawk]

Of course when you have studied biology it does make a difference:

http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/8774277/

RESULTS: Eighty-two percent of the 200 couples followed for the entire study period conceived. The maximal fertility rate was approximately 30% per cycle in the first two cycles. This rate quickly tapered over the remainder of the study. Pregnancy wastage during phase 1 accounted for 31% of the pregnancies detected. Forty-one percent (15/36) of these losses were seen only by urine hCG testing and were categorized as occult. Eleven of these same patients later achieved clinically recognized conceptions during the study.

CONCLUSIONS: These results support the concept that the efficiency of human reproduction is maximum at approximately 30% per cycle. A very significant number of these pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion. In addition, pregnancy loss before missed menses occurs in a significant proportion of women.

In many cases when you have unprotected sex you are fertilizing an egg that fails to attach, and never even detects as a pregnancy. Some estimates put that number anywhere from 30% to 70% of the time. By your logic nearly every time you have unprotected sex a life dies. Do you have a funeral 72 hours after having unprotected sex? Because if the "life" isn't going to attach and live from there it is not going to.

I will stop here as neither of us will sway in our beliefs, and this will simply descend into a pissing match, instead of constructive debate. Have a good one.

 

[Jack Davenport]

We should be talking about the conception stage when it comes to human life, not what ran down someone's leg. No I don't hold a funeral after unprotected sex, usually we go out for brunch.

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

No....read the post again. I said that although I personally have a moral issue with it that I don't believe it to be fair for me to impose those morals on an entire gender with whom I could never share the experience of having an unwanted pregnancy. Conversely, you are certainly free to make whatever moral judgments against them you choose.

Yeah, so that’s where we disagree. Let me give you an example of why I disagree, using a subject that’s not abortion. You’ve probably heard of Andrea Yates, who experienced severe postpartum depression and drowned her five children in a bathtub. I will never experience postpartum depression. I can become depressed, but I can’t experience postpartum depression. It doesn’t even make sense to me right now, and I have no idea what it’s like, but I believe that I can absolutely make a moral judgement that it was wrong for Andrea Yates to drown her kids, and I would support that action continuing to be against the law.

 

[Jack Davenport]

Yeah, so that’s where we disagree. Let me give you an example of why I disagree, using a subject that’s not abortion. You’ve probably heard of Andrea Yates, who experienced severe postpartum depression and drowned her five children in a bathtub. I will never experience postpartum depression. I can become depressed, but I can’t experience postpartum depression. It doesn’t even make sense to me right now, and I have no idea what it’s like, but I believe that I can absolutely make a moral judgement that it was wrong for Andrea Yates to drown her kids, and I would support that action continuing to be against the law.

Hot damn!

 

[Jagger69]

OK, but I don't believe this is a valid analogy for two significant reasons. First, like it or not, abortion is legal. What Andrea Yates did was not. Secondly, Yates was ultimately found not guilty by reason of insanity even though no one in their right might would condone what she did. My stance is predicated on the facts from a legal standpoint with my own personal feelings being relegated to secondary importance while yours are apparently based on your personal feelings being of primary importance in spite of the legalities. I can respect your viewpoint but it won't serve to change how I feel about the issue and I'm certain that my viewpoint won't change yours either.

 

[sean miguel]

OK, but I don't believe this is a valid analogy for two significant reasons. First, like it or not, abortion is legal. What Andrea Yates did was not. Secondly, Yates was ultimately found not guilty by reason of insanity even though no one in their right might would condone what she did. My stance is predicated on the facts from a legal standpoint with my own personal feelings being relegated to secondary importance while yours are apparently based on your personal feelings being of primary importance in spite of the legalities. I can respect your viewpoint but it won't serve to change how I feel about the issue and I'm certain that my viewpoint won't change yours either.

Since the legality of abortion is your primary consideration over your own moral objections, if Roe vs. Wade was overturned and abortion was no longer legal would you be fine with that? Because it was the law?

Slavery was once legal in this country. It was illegal to help an escaped slave evade capture. What would you have done if you had come across an escaped slave? Follow the law or your conscience?

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

Personal feelings do play a part, yes. But invariably it comes down to morality. Taking another's life for convenience sake is just as invalid as you claim the Andrea Yate's analogy is. I've heard stories of people getting three, four or more abortions because they're too stupid, lazy or amoral to use adequate birth control measures or abstain. It would fall in line with my belief that personal responsibility and accountability are virtues that 21st century people fail to appreciate, understand or strive to achieve.

 

[Jagger69]

Since the legality of abortion is your primary consideration over your own moral objections, if Roe vs. Wade was overturned and abortion was no longer legal would you be fine with that? Because it was the law?

Slavery was once legal in this country. It was illegal to help an escaped slave evade capture. What would you have done if you had come across an escaped slave? Follow the law or your conscience?

I do believe in adherence with the law regardless of my personal feelings (your hypothetical slavery question is a bit of a reach because I really don't know how I would have felt in that situation so long ago when most of my family members were pro-slavery or slave-owners themselves....hate to say it but it's quite possible I might have been one as well based on my upbringing). I don't smoke pot, for instance, strictly because it is against he law....a law with which I strongly disagree by the way. My objection to abortion is based upon a personal family experience which I would rather not discuss, not anything to so with a "when does life begin?" argument so I don't think those reasons are analogous with most of those who are morally opposed to the right to abortion. If Roe v Wade were overturned, I would adhere to the law, yes.

However, allow me add this qualifier....I understand morality playing a role in someone's willingness to accept and follow a law without exception and I could not tell you that I would blindly follow just any ol' law that was enacted by the government if it clashed with my core set of values. So, regarding your "slavery" question....if I were an avowed abolitionist back in the day, I would undoubtedly break the law as you suggest. I totally get why those who feel the way they do about the abortion issue are so vociferous in their objection if they believe that human life begins at conception. I don't happen to share that belief. Perhaps by stating I had personal objections to abortion I gave you the impression that I do. If so, please accept my regrets.

Personal feelings do play a part, yes. But invariably it comes down to morality. Taking another's life for convenience sake is just as invalid as you claim the Andrea Yate's analogy is. I've heard stories of people getting three, four or more abortions because they're too stupid, lazy or amoral to use adequate birth control measures or abstain. It would fall in line with my belief that personal responsibility and accountability are virtues that 21st century people fail to appreciate, understand or strive to achieve.

A completely valid argument if you believe that life begins at conception.

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

Absolutely I believe life begins at conception. I also believe it's not a right to be able to murder a human being in the womb because though they share DNA, the baby's DNA is unique.

Would people show more compassion for the unborn if they started washing up on the shores of Turkey?

 

[SabrinaDeep]

would people show more compassion for the unborn if they started washing up on the shores of turkey?

bang!

 

[zeeblofowl_1969]

bang!

medical waste washes up on beaches all the time???

 

[fartfetish]

Conservatives can't use facts when facts always hurt them.