Senate Report: CIA Misled Public on Torture

[sean miguel]

Thank God you used an unbiased source that isn't scurrying to save it's own ass, otherwise you'd just be wasting everyone's time.

You're right, I should've used an unbiased source like the huffington post. The CIA operatives in question aren't under threat of prosecution, neither is the CIA director who wasn't even the director when this all happened. So what is Brennan scurrying from?

 

[D-rock]

Well.. let's consider about 20 or so beheadings of innocent hostages in the Middle East in the past few years that were even reported in the press. How many were done to their own people is unknown. Let's go back the more humane torture of being stripped naked and put on a dog collar with women soldiers riding them around.

I believe in neither two wrongs making a right or the ends justifying the means. People who use those concepts are only making excuses for themselves.

 

[zeeblofowl_1969]

I believe in neither two wrongs making a right or the ends justifying the means. People who use those concepts are only making excuses for themselves.

What really pisses me off it the twat, er, bush administration lied the entire time about it.

 

[tvstrip]

What really pisses me off it the twat, er, bush administration lied the entire time about it.

Just as annoying is that countries like Iran, China, North Korea and Russia are pissing on the US over the report. When was the last time any of those countries admitted to any wrongdoing? God knows they have a lot to admit to.

But before the US can get all righteous, lets not forget there's a big difference between simply admitting your mistakes and actually being held accountable/atoning for them. The US can admit to all the inhumane crimes they want, but in the end not a single person who perpetrated or covered up the crimes is going to get any punishment, which makes it a hollow gesture. Has anyone herd of any detainees lawyering up?

 

[Straight Shooter]

I recommended watching this interview with James Mitchell, the architect of the CIA's interrogation program

 

[Supafly]

Yesterday evening, after reading some of the articles and the posts above, I was thinking to myself:

In shorter than two weeks, a young man comes into this world. It will be a simple little place, between animals, and in poor surroundings. His parents have to leave there soon. They nned to be among friends. Where should they go?

There are so many people who are so eager to be the wolves to other men, and they all have the best intentions, or at least, they can resort to: What are we supposed to do? These people are behaving like monsters, so we must play the game like they do.

Looking left and right, the parents and the child can't decide which one group they should be afraid off the least. But there is hope.

A lost drone could kill them and save them from having to make this decision.

Have a wonderful christmas time, if you can make it and forget you have become what you despise the most in order to fight those who do all the crimes that disgust you.

 

[Johan]

Yesterday evening, after reading some of the articles and the posts above, I was thinking to myself:

In shorter than two weeks, a young man comes into this world. It will be a simple little place, between animals, and in poor surroundings. His parents have to leave there soon. They nned to be among friends. Where should they go?

There are so many people who are so eager to be the wolves to other men, and they all have the best intentions, or at least, they can resort to: What are we supposed to do? These people are behaving like monsters, so we must play the game like they do.

Looking left and right, the parents and the child can't decide which one group they should be afraid off the least. But there is hope.

A lost drone could kill them and save them from having to make this decision.

Have a wonderful christmas time, if you can make it and forget you have become what you despise the most in order to fight those who do all the crimes that disgust you.

You need to spread some Reputation around before giving it to Supadupafly again

You nailed it, man. And you've said it in the best possible way :bowdown:

 

[zeeblofowl_1969]

Yes....and that is their goal. If they can get us to turn our back on the basic human rights ideals upon which our nation was founded, they win. Quite obviously, regarding our willingness to use torture as an official governmental policy, they've already won.

If we are willing to abandon our basic tenets of individual rights in order to defend them, do they not cease to exist? We are literally in a no-win situation against an enemy that is fanatical in its devotion to its cause and quite willing to use this fanaticism indiscriminately as divine justification for the barbarous and heinous acts that they carry out with reckless impunity. How do you fight this enemy? The question has thus far remained unanswered but, to me, torturing them isn't the way. It makes a huge statement when someone like John McCain agrees:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/09/politics/mccain-lauds-release-terror-report/index.html

I agree that if we change our way of life they win but let us not forget that we used a great many things to form this country some just and noble and some not so much. Genocide being one of them so I always chuckle when people say things like 'we don't do that' because oh yes we have and if we want to survive for the long run we will again this is still after all a world that rewards aggression and consumes the weak and I'm afraid always will be.

 

[zeeblofowl_1969]

Just as annoying is that countries like Iran, China, North Korea and Russia are pissing on the US over the report. When was the last time any of those countries admitted to any wrongdoing? God knows they have a lot to admit to.

But before the US can get all righteous, lets not forget there's a big difference between simply admitting your mistakes and actually being held accountable/atoning for them. The US can admit to all the inhumane crimes they want, but in the end not a single person who perpetrated or covered up the crimes is going to get any punishment, which makes it a hollow gesture. Has anyone herd of any detainees lawyering up?

Case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[bobjustbob]

I'm not buying into the American exceptionalism - you become what your enemy is guilt trip. There are people out there that want to kill American citizens just because of our lifestyles. The same nations that want our support to police the world are the first ones to criticize us for our efforts. And that's over and over again. Genocide happens all over the world in places that doesn't make the news. Are these other nations doing anything about it? No. If the USA doesn't get involved then nothing gets done. I don't give a rat's ass about any other country's criticism. We will solve our own problems. Yea, we makes mistakes. So we treated our perceived enemies badly. If you become an enemy of us we may very well make more mistakes so be well warned.

 

[Little Red Wagon Repairman]

Geez-Louise! Makes it sound like Bill Cosby was CIA.

"Just tell them you don't even entertain those type of questions. OK?"

 

[Supafly]

I think it is safe to say that the hazted for the USA (Don't call it 'America') stems not from the internal lifestyle. Because, very simply, that is exactly that: Internally

The actual reason is the 'Monroe Doctrine', and the path it paved for interventions, broadly using this word, wherever the USA saw it's interests in danger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

 

[D-rock]

Yea, we makes mistakes. So we treated our perceived enemies badly.

Saying we treated our enemies badly is a gigantic understatement. We were despicable and did actions that can't be considered anything other than evil.


At some point when we look at this issue we need to realize that our wrongdoing isn't just about our enemies. More so it's about us. Protecting the world or even your country becomes meaningless if in the act of doing so you make it a place that's not worth living in. If that is the length we need to go to "win" then it's better to lose.

Something else most people don't seem to consider is that today it might be terrorist, but someday it might be you or your descendents when they get on the wrong side of the government. Groups and people that do actions like those tend not to stop and keep going farther. Some of the worst atrocities in history happened as the conclusion of many smaller steps that lead to them.

 

[mikexmoran]

I'm not buying into the American exceptionalism - you become what your enemy is guilt trip. There are people out there that want to kill American citizens just because of our lifestyles. The same nations that want our support to police the world are the first ones to criticize us for our efforts. And that's over and over again. Genocide happens all over the world in places that doesn't make the news. Are these other nations doing anything about it? No. If the USA doesn't get involved then nothing gets done. I don't give a rat's ass about any other country's criticism. We will solve our own problems. Yea, we makes mistakes. So we treated our perceived enemies badly. If you become an enemy of us we may very well make more mistakes so be well warned.

Absolutely. Re: American Exceptionalism: I never bought into the concept and never thought is is something we should strive for. If you've seen the Aaron Sorkin rant that Jeff Daniels did an awesome job with about how American is NOT the greatest country in the work, "But we sure used to be". I think it is great writing and awesome acting, but complete fabrication. Sorkin, as he normally does got the history and the facts wrong to make it entertaining. We (I'm US born) are not "Exceptional". We are good people who are not perfect and try to do the right thing. A no time in our history were we ever the greatest. I'm Sorry if that offends anyone, but it isn't a bad thing. It is human.

WWII may have seen the greatest generation, but the US tried its best to avoid the fight. You can't pick a decade in our history where politics was not miserable and we (The U.S.) weren't doing something that we shouldn't be doing. Are we bad? Hell no. Who is spitting at US that can possibly related to the position this country is in with the world? The Brits? The Germans? The French? The Russians? China? If they try to take the high ground and complain about the US not being perfect, it would be too easy to compare.

I think the US is and has always been imperfect. We are successful. At the end of the day, I believe we try and do the right thing, but we are very human. I'm not going to try and live up to some lie that the US is a beacon of virtue. Knock down a couple of our buildings and I don't care who is president, you'll find out that we haven't strayed from our rough and primitive roots.

I think it is safe to say that the hazted for the USA (Don't call it 'America') stems not from the internal lifestyle. Because, very simply, that is exactly that: Internally

The actual reason is the 'Monroe Doctrine', and the path it paved for interventions, broadly using this word, wherever the USA saw it's interests in danger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

I hear what you're you're saying for the most part, but I don't agree with the theses you're trying to put forward. Does the USA get involved around the globe for its own interests? Yes. Gunboat Diplomacy doesn't start or end with Roosevelt and Taft.
However, the Monroe Doctrine isn't really the place to look for it. It is mostly about keeping European conflicts out of the Americas. It was mostly dead before Roosevelt. He pumped a bit of life back into it. I hadn't seen the the wiki link, but I clicked on it to look to see if it had Kerry's quote, and it did. That the Monroe document was dead. Now, if I was omnipotent I would bring Adams back to life to kick his ass for saying that, but it is true.

So, re: Monroe Document - I think you didn't hit the target.
Re: USA involvement around the world for our own interests. Yup. (We could debate the good/bad of that and show others examples of that as well - so I don't think it is that big of a point as you may)
re: American v. USA. First off, my European board buddy, Its 'Murica, not America Its tough to be a USA-an or USer, so we're Americans. If it means we steal two continents to make that claim. So be it.

I'm not an apologist. I don't try to white wash what we are either. We stand proudly next to our English and German brothers who have committed horrible acts as well, but try to learn from their mistakes.

 

[Johan]

Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

Article 2 of the UN Convention on Torture

You know who signed this ? Who bound the US to such a treaty. It wasn't some liberal like John Kennedy, or Bill Clinton. It was no other than conservatives most beloved president, Ronald Reagan.
Reagan agreed that torture was so inhumane that it should never be used, unders any circumstances. Still, the Bush administration used it and now the conservatives are defending that administration, explaining that the Bush dministration did what they had to do, forgetting that Reagan himself agreed that the US should never, under any circumstances, do it.
I guess Reagan was too much of a pussy to today's conservatives...

 

[Supafly]

So, re: Monroe Document - I think you didn't hit the target.
Re: USA involvement around the world for our own interests. Yup. (We could debate the good/bad of that and show others examples of that as well - so I don't think it is that big of a point as you may)
re: American v. USA. First off, my European board buddy, Its 'Murica, not America Its tough to be a USA-an or USer, so we're Americans. If it means we steal two continents to make that claim. So be it.

I'm not an apologist. I don't try to white wash what we are either. We stand proudly next to our English and German brothers who have committed horrible acts as well, but try to learn from their mistakes.

You are somewhat correct about the Monroe Doctrine, but I think it really started out there. Doesn't matter today, the USA took it to an extreme that is way beyond being arguable as acceptable.

The difference is: We Europeans stopped Colonialism for the biggest part, the USA goes on full blast. And you assist me in my argument with that 'Murica' line. You blow so much money outside the country or for the machine that assures world dominance that you people are getting retarted, except the children from your upper class.

So, you feel you are AWESOME?

 

[mikexmoran]

You are somewhat correct about the Monroe Doctrine, but I think it really started out there. Doesn't matter today, the USA took it to an extreme that is way beyond being arguable as acceptable.

The difference is: We Europeans stopped Colonialism for the biggest part, the USA goes on full blast. And you assist me in my argument with that 'Murica' line. You blow so much money outside the country or for the machine that assures world dominance that you people are getting retarted, except the children from your upper class.

So, you feel you are AWESOME?

I'm not somewhat correct. I'm fully correct.

The "'Murica" line is a nod to the silliness of it. Perhaps this was lost in the language.

Some would argue that Germany takes a heavy hand within their own Union.

We're not perfect, but even with dropping a couple of atomic bombs and exerting whatever influence you care to describe we haven't quite racked up the body count that more than one European country has within less than 100 years. Have we? I would be careful of preaching morality. Blood doesn't wash from hands so quickly. I don't bash Germany. Bashing America seems unproductive. I admit we're far from perfect, but from your attack, it seems that you are comfortable with Germany's faults and see no need for improvement. Perhaps I lost that in the language as well.

Our democracy and leadership position is older than Germany's. There are pitfalls that any democracy will fall into. Especially in the position that the US is in. It can be a mixed blessing. Looking at not to long ago history there have been countries that have risen to power and done great evil and burned out. I don't think you would compare the US to that.

To attempt and clear up any language issues. My premise is that the US is not perfect. Other countries are not perfect. The proof is in trying to right itself.

As an educator, my opinion is that your shot on the intelligence of the US population is misplaced. I think you are trying to compare Germany to the US. It isn't a proper analogy. Germany is not on the same level in many ways with the US. The US' geography, population, economy are very different and present different problems that require different solutions. To assume the same policies for Germany would work for the US is displaying willful ignorance. Comparing the US to India or China may make more sense in some ways, but not in others. So, the simplistic approach of posting a Fox News link is probably not effective.

To answer your question - Yes. By definition, the US is Awesome. Deal with it. Jealousy is ugly.

Also, by definition Diane Kruger is Awesome.

I'm not sure if you have ever seen the movie "Something About Mary", but yes, I am fucking with you.

 

[laidoff2]

Guys really porn has given us plenty of examples of how to interrogate successfully, basically big titties and wet pussies all around and everything is cool see:

This is how the greatest nation on earth should handle interrogation. Fuck the living fuck out of any opposition