Outlawing guns in the US ...

[Member2019]

No apology necessary ...

True. And for that, I apologize to the moderators.
BTW, would you care to glance at a few threads were you went on and on about subjects completely unrelated to the thread's topic.
I will provide the links for you if you wish?
Now what about that group hug?

First off, it wasn't aimed at you, and it wasn't just aimed at Fox either, but a lot of people.

For some reason people think they are being "objective" by equating our civics to our foreign policy or whatever else they don't like about the actions of the US government.
Nothing could be more subjective.

 

[Member2019]

Recess ...

Get Over It . . . Weenies !!
Time for recess . . . professor . . ?

Probably.
God knows I'd love to make love to my wife right about now, but I'm not at home, hence why I'm here.
Of course if I was always at home, instead of being on the road, I'd probably never get on here.

 

[Member2019]

I don't stand by my leaders ...

Every countries government uses spin and propaganda to get its people on its side so dont get all high and mighty when someon questions it, you make yourself look brainwashed if you stand by everything your country does, and i dont think even your leaders want you to do that, but what do i know im only a brainwashed european!!!

I don't stand by my leaders.
I only stand by my organization of government.

It has very strict rules on what requires more than 50% of the vote, and what requires a super-majority.
After all, a vote of only 50% should not be able to over-ride a prior vote of 2/3rds or 3/4ths.

Simple math, no?

 

[McRocket]

Re: I don't stand by my leaders ...

I don't stand by my leaders.
I only stand by my organization of government.

It has very strict rules on what requires more than 50% of the vote, and what requires a super-majority.
After all, a vote of only 50% should not be able to over-ride a prior vote of 2/3rds or 3/4ths.

Simple math, no?

That depends when the previous vote was taken and whether the vote has changed in any measurable way.

 

[pathfinder]

Ohh...and that most (if not all of you) are white men - the group more then any other that is responsible for most of the problems in the world today (and especially yesterday). And the group that (outside of possible military service) knows less about hardship and adversity and discrimination then any other major 'group' on the planet; but consistently believes that they have 'had it tough'.

Wow... yeah, you're not trying to start a race debate are you.
Yep, the white man is to blame for all the problems on this planet.
And what hardships have you endured personally that make you sch an expert?
I'm not saying whitey has had to deal with the adversity and discrimination that some "groups" have, nor will I apologize for it because I and the majority of the white men in this world have had very little if anything to do with any of those hardships.
If you want to put blame to a color, how about green? Because money has probably been the driving force behind a lot of the misery created in this world.

These permits are meant to control possession within an ownership society. I want to remove possession completely away from "Population Centers." No guns in the homes of New York or LA, for example. If New Yorkers want to own a gun, they need to house it offsite--in the mountains or wherever.

You mean disarm citizens in the parts of the states that have the highest crime rates and make them even more dependent on the under-manned police force that doesn't get there until after the damage is already done? I just wanna make sure I'm getting that right...

We have a National Guard and we have a Military. A community Militia is irrelevant in today's world. There is only 1 Army that "might" think about an invasion against us--China--but moving Armies around takes time. Moving planes, firing missiles, moving Subs...this is smarter warfare today. Taking out our satellites and communications..smarter warfare. The way to neutralize America is to take out our Electricity Grids. Using Chemical weapons..more deadly.

Their biggest advantage at this point would be that our military is spread pretty thin, although I'm sure we have an eye on them at any given moment to make sure they're not jumping on that opportunity.
And yes, I agree, the best way to take us down, at this point, is disabling our infrastructures: power, communications, and travel. A massive coordinated attack would cripple this country and based on the response to Katrina I'd venture a guess that we don't have the resources to be able to put things back on track in time to properly defend our borders.

 

[Member2019]

Re: I don't stand by my leaders ...

it should be up to the people...

Ummm, it already was "up to the people" a good 220 years ago.
If they want to change it, there is the super-majority process we already have established and agreed to.
If you don't like that then vote in a change using that same process, to change the process.

This is why you need to read-up on American civics Fox, because you're re-hashing things Americans already know.
You look like a continued, ignorant and -- based on your refusal to even bother to read-up -- arrogant fool.
That's why you would be laughed at if you even suggested this in public, except in front of those under-educated.

You'd cater quite well to them.

there should be a vote on what percentage it should take to pass a law or amendment. anything from 50% to 99%.

Why not use the same percentage the American people already decided almost 220 years ago?
Why change it now?

Oh, that's right, because you're just learning this for the first time!
That's why people suggest you read before you speak, because you look like an ignorant fool.

and the average percentage that people choose, the mean, will become the percentage it takes to get something done.

So, what you're saying is that you want to change the existing civics today?
But you want to "bypass" the rules that are already established to do it?

Explain this to me like a 2 year old.
How to you qualify and quantify that?

And let's say you make a "new law," how do you prevent people from over-riding it in the future and bypassing it?
How do you prevent people from changing the law, without using the existing laws?

I mean, if the people decided what are the "super-rules" voted on by a "super-majority," how do you prevent them from "changing it on a whim?"
Oh, "I think this is an important issue, so the 75% of people who agreed it is right before, they are wrong, so we'll only require 50% of the people to change it today."

And how do you prevent the people from voting in a dictator while you're at it?
I.e., a leader without term limits, who is no longer elected or extends his/her own office without an election?

At what point do you undermine the entire system designed to qualify and quantity the rule of law "just because" you "don't agree with it today?"

same in the UN.

I'm only talking about Americans and American civics.
I don't assume to apply other values or views to other people in other nations.

I utterly avoid telling other nations how they should be organized, much less I avoid doing it from a standpoint of purposeful ignorance like you openly profess.
Only a few times I have done that, and I'm glad there are people like Poggy to point out that I was wrong to do it the few times I did.

 

[Member2019]

Guilt trips ...

Yep, the white man is to blame for all the problems on this planet.

Forget it.

Because men rape women (and even some husbands who are guilty of raping their wives), I'm supposed to feel guilty for wanting to "bang the shit" out of my consenting wife according to McRocket.
Or I'm supposed to feel guilty because I lust without regret, because I was programmed to want to lay a woman down and ram myself deep into her.

I'm not apologizing for being a man, or being a white man, because I don't believe in original sin.
My actions and my being are defined by myself, not what other people decide for me or what they do in "my group."

I am an individual, not "in a group" -- the "group" concept is what I despise about both religion and socialism.

 

[geraldhp42]

Well said, Prof. Well said.

 

[McRocket]

Yep, the white man is to blame for all the problems on this planet.

Where did I type that?

And what hardships have you endured personally that make you sch an expert?

So I have to be black to judge that racism was wrong?

Are you suggesting that there are non-whites in this world that have not and are not enduring great hardships? Many of which are directly or indirectly the result of the white male?
Is that what you are suggesting?

 

[McRocket]

Re: Guilt trips ...

Because men rape women (and even some husbands who are guilty of raping their wives), I'm supposed to feel guilty for wanting to "bang the shit" out of my consenting wife according to McRocket.

Where did I type that? When have I ever typed that about you and your wife? I have not because I have never thought it.
I would appreciate it if you would not lie about what I have typed.

Or I'm supposed to feel guilty because I lust without regret, because I was programmed to want to lay a woman down and ram myself deep into her.

And this is to do with the 2'nd Amendment how?

I'm not apologizing for being a man, or being a white man, because I don't believe in original sin.
My actions and my being are defined by myself, not what other people decide for me or what they do in "my group."

How convenient. I sincerely hope that your definitions of what are sinful and what are not do not one day include hurting others who simply are not emotionally capable of uttering their objections to them.
People like your wife, for example.

I am an individual, not "in a group" -- the "group" concept is what I despise about both religion and socialism.

Again, convenient. When the majority no longer approve of what you do, you shall make your own standards and deride those who do not allow you to act as you see fit.


BTW, it is interesting how you demand and expect others to stay on the topic of this thread. But yet oh so quickly wander of that topic whenever it suits you.

I suggest if you want to discuss this, you start yet another thread.

 

[McRocket]

McSomething! That's McRocket, I bet. That pain-in-the-ass?

This board would be so much simpler for everyone, the mods, the members, everyone if he would just take his preachy ideals and go somewhere else.
I mean he's dating that huge breasted porn star, what's her name? Why on Earth does he still come around here? You'd think he'd be too worn out.

Oh wait a minute....he's me.

Nevermind.







BTW - I am NOT dating a pornstar. Not to my knowledge, anyway.

 

[geraldhp42]

"They expect you to read up volumes of boring crap, knowing full well you have better things to do, so they can write off your ideas as ignorant. Meanwhile, they only read those things that support their position. They don't open their mind to new possibilities. They only read what reinforces their own."

Quite frankly, this is like the ultimate blank check to act like a jackass and basically a cop-out to not have to even try to have any knowledge of what the hell you are talking about.

 

[ninetysixcavy]

Ohh...and that most (if not all of you) are white men - the group more then any other that is responsible for most of the problems in the world today (and especially yesterday). And the group that (outside of possible military service) knows less about hardship and adversity and discrimination then any other major 'group' on the planet; but consistently believes that they have 'had it tough'.

That post sure doesn't make you sound white, and if you are there sure is a lot of self-hate going on in your life. What do you know about hardship? Where do you live? I've been to Canada on several occasions and I can assure you that's not the "hard life." The hardest thing I saw up there the last time I was there (in Winnipeg) was a bunch of drunk ass natives and some Jamaican dude sellin' me some chronic in the mall bathroom. Don't turn this into something it isn't, because you're off on that last post.

 

[ninetysixcavy]

I read this recently... it is REALLY APT. This is something I read that a friend of mine said, he has a scottish sounding spaceship like name, and he is a frequenter of this board and this thread McSomething... can't remember exactly... McRocker maybe? Anyway, I'm now quoting it. It's about self-appointed teachers, school teachers, or college teachers, and the way some of them dismiss students with original ideas, but it's SO relavant about a couple of the debate participants here.

"They expect you to read up volumes of boring crap, knowing full well you have better things to do, so they can write off your ideas as ignorant. Meanwhile, they only read those things that support their position. They don't open their mind to new possibilities. They only read what reinforces their own."

HOW appropriate!

All we did (our side) was put forth facts the whole time, and I don't think your side has put forth one fact; just a bunch of fear and rhetoric about nothing...and avoidance of the links/facts/arguments we gave you. Original ideas are fine, but if you expect to pass a college class, you had better bring more than just some great argument, because I can assure you your "teachers' are going to want some real, scholarly substance to back all your outlandish claims up. :wave2::thefinger

 

[ninetysixcavy]

Why can't whites be self critical? we should be. Americans should be the MOST critical of Americans but since some Americans are generally into the idea that to be American is to be... blessed above all... then others take in upon themselves to bring Americans down to earth. I am white and I am sure as hell in agreement that 90% of the devastation and poverty in this earth right now is as a result of white european colonialism and white-invented capitalism. I don't blame the colour of the skin and I don't think the race exists. It just happened that way. It could have been mostly black people that corrupted the world, but it happened to be generally the white world that enslaved the rest, so let's call it like it is.

With all due respect, you know damn well Persians aren't the ones you speak of when you are speaking of that "evil class" of white men you're referring to in that paragraph.

So if you read through this thread, with all of the personal insults and the obnoxious one-to-one digs, and then you're going to tell me that I, for example, act like a jackass? I'll tell you something else for nothing, too. I have a hell of a lot more knowledge and experience of the world as a whole from my travelling and my degrees than a lot of the people calling me ignorant and telling me to read x and y book and shut up. Because I've been to 4 continents (several times) and seen many ways of life and governments working and running. I have no national bias. Whatever else you think of me at least I'm not blinded by one flag or another. Flags are shit to me. All of them. They look nice. They're cool for sports tournaments. People are also killed in their name. Flags and documents and ideologies that have no room for other people's rights and differences and ideologies. Deadly, and shit. Tolerance is the only way to go. Tolerance of ideas. No matter how much they contradict our own. And of people and nations.

I'll tolerate those nations (as in the the ones who refuse to tolerate America and constantly put us on blast) when they start to respect and tolerate my nation. Fair enough? Certainly that's fair with you, right? :wave2:

 

[ninetysixcavy]

Thanks for bringing my schooling up. Great opportunity to boast. Despite my credentials, apparently I'm an ignorant fool who knows nothing. At least I don't give people the finger when I'm losing an argument

Graduated in 2006, 3.9 GPA double major English and Government/International Politics with honors from George Mason University and Oxford University, at your service. You ever heard of Oxford? I'm past the college stage, thanks anyway. The 3.9 as opposed to 4.0 is because I got *1* grade that translated as A- from my courses at Oxford University. They were a lot tougher and more challenging that what I studied in America. A lot more advanced. But at least I didn't have to pay for school in the US. I got a full scholarship because of my SATs and my high school grades. But then I'm an idiot. I know nothing, according to the brilliant thinkers from the libertarian camp on freeones.

One of the first things they taught me at those prestigious schools, which weren't easy to get straight A's at, but I pulled it off, was that anyone can come up with a statistic for anything. So statistics and facts are worthless. Use them to get A's in papers, but they don't "prove" anything in the real world, because there are always statistics out there that contradict them. Using logic to figure out things is more important than having easily manipulated raw numbers. My outlandish claims are only really outlandish in Disneyland (USA).

LMAO..... :rofl: Is that what an Ivy-League education has come to nowadays...indoctrination on the ULTRA LIBERAL level? Facts and statistics don't stand for anything anymore, only lies and rhetoric do? You don't have to answer that, because I am well aware of what has become of certian higher educational instiutions with political correctness, etc. Also, I don't doubt your crendentials. (I know you type about 10 times as fast as me, lol). I also know getting into a debate with you is like brining a knife to a gun fight because I only have an undergraduate degree, even though I did receive it with "distinction." (I am belittling myself right now ) There are plenty of able-minded individuals on here, however, that have IMO shredded you with facts in relation to this debate. Opinions carry little weight when we have provided links to show how many beautiful women have been saved from the trauma and horror of being raped because of the 2nd amendment.

 

[ninetysixcavy]

Oh, and I'm aware that Oxford isn't in the Ivy League...

 

[geraldhp42]

You know what? I've been trying to type up a response for an hour, but I'm just gonna give a resigned sigh and walk away from the train wreck before I get my 12th ulcer.

Just this... as I'm about to graduate with a Masters in mathematics, I know that statistics can be misleading, especially when English language is involved. Marvelous for poets, horrible for technical writing. That numbers can be twisted means you have to read the study and how it was done critically than just ignoring it flippantly.

 

[ninetysixcavy]

(1) I'm not Persian. My dad is. That means I'm half Persian. My Mum's English. My home is England. My accent is English. Everyone who knows me considers me English. And white. I look white. And England was one of the chief colonizers of the world. So I definitely diss myself and my ancestors when I say that *we* white people (collectively) have fucked up the world and 90% of what is fucked up is what we collectively did. And let me also say on behalf of my Persian side, that the Middle East is also fucked up in some ways, but Arabs and Middle Easterners never quite did the whole "colonizing and enslaving the world" thing... so... they're not quite on the same scale of evil deeds in the past. And I never ever said evil class of white men so DON'T put words in my mouth.

Well, I'm Irish. So do I have the right to bitch and moan about the English and what they did to my ancestors several hundred years ago, for the rest of my life? I could probably dig some shit up that exonerates me from all of this " I owe" shit, because as far as I know, the Irish did none of that old evil colonization shit all those years ago you speak of.

And as for your intolerance of other nations - they will probably respect your nation (our nation) more when we stop INVADING them and toppling their leaders and being (fact) the biggest state sponsor of global terrorism that there is. Once we build peace instead of making war, and once we stop killing innocent people for $$$ then I think we will get more respect. Nobody has ever fucking invaded America. Nobody has gone that far. Nobody has done to this nation anything as bad as what it repeatedly does to others.

I TOTALLY agree with you there. Our leaders have betrayed us more than enough for my lifetime. We have to get them all out of there. And after that, we must see to it that from now on, we are neutral when it comes to this bullshit "we have to police the world" trash that we have made for ourselves. Then we will see how much the world likes us. Of course, I suppose there will always be a reason to hate America, because then, we won't be "doing enough."

 

[Member2019]

Are you listening to yourself?!

Everyone else at least recognizes my right to state what I believe in without any qualifications.

There is a different between what you believe, and what you can legally do.
Obviously you think you have any remote possibility of changing anything when you do not.
And then you stand dumbfounded or, worse yet, you blame leaders instead of your own ignorance.

As McR said, fuck what happened 220 years ago. Seriously. Fuck it.
Our representatives have abused their power enough and lied to us enough

And our leaders heard that 220 years ago as well.
Let's us start with Harper's Ferry ...

that it is very clearly obvious that the system you worship doesn't work and it is designed - literally desiged - so that nothing is going to change. Nothing.

Then get the fuck out.

Apparently you want a system that can disregard and redefine the civics of this land on a whim.
The problem you don't recognize is that what you advocate today could be over-riden by people tomorrow, without any balances to prevent it.
Why? Because it could be one single person decides, "oh, well we should just have simple majority on this, but not on that, etc..."

At what point do you just re-write everything?!
And better yet, how do you qualify and quantify when that should be done?
Disregarding civics today sets the precedent to disregard civics tomorrow, and that's when everything is destroyed.

Do you even understand what the term "civics" means?
It's the way a people decide, with civility, how to qualify and quantity what is "right" and what is "wrong."
It's not pure objectivity, but it's far, far less subjective, especially over time.

The people of the United States have decided to conduct simple majority laws and then super-majority laws in various ways.
If you want to change those laws, then you will follow the existing laws to change them.

Otherwise, any laws set from today on-ward would mean nothing just as much as you are advocating the ones before.
There would be no qualitative and quantitative means to do anything that would hold at all.

There would be no Constitution at all!
There would be no mechanisms to change things that would stick!

The only power anyone thinks they have is to decide between two old men every few years. That's it.

Every time you simplify it into that, you look like a fool.
You offer no solutions that would even remotely be sustainable, because 100% of what you advocate you cannot even adhere to yourself!

And you can't teach them the overly complicated intricacies of the system you worship because the education system is shit and underfunded, and your precious free media (ranked 30 or 40 something in the world in terms of least censored), clear channel and the big networks that virtually everyone watches (not you, but you're not exactly a typical american male at all), will not let any idea or message or person that is even slightly left of the middle or that suggests any problems in the system get any airtime at all.

Fox, do you understand why you are not an American when you claim you are?

"You" and "Your" and whatnot -- stop saying "you" and "your" because, if you claim you are an American -- they are yours as well!
American civics are your civics as well as mine!

If not, then you want to destroy the state
Luckily for you, the state doesn't take issue with people ignorant of civics, because they are impotent and can't do anything.
Honestly dude, you show absolutely no value in civics.
Hence why any "new civics" you suggest would have no value either.

And even if we did... Americans are religiously schooled from the word go on how their system is perfect and dreamy and peachy and rosy and we all bow down to it. It's really, really not working. Look at Iraq. Look at education. Look at healthcare. Look at the lack of free media. It. Is. Not. Working.

How do you define "working"?
You seem to equate civics to laws, or the "judgment" of those laws.

Civics has nothing to do with the "judgment" or "value" or "taste" of laws.
Civics is just the process that people agree to enact laws or repeal them.

Cling on as best you can. You're wrong.

What you advocate is "value judgment" on laws without any qualifying and quantifying.
You don't want stop and agree to how everyone before you has agreed to do so.
You want to say it's the civics that result in the "wrong" laws, and yours are "better civics."

You're actually killing the chicken before the egg.
You want to change the civics because you disagree with the results, not realizing that any "new civics" you introduce will mean nothing.
Because if you don't value civics that are in place, then any civics you put in place will also not be valued.

Civics has nothing to do with what laws are enacted, they are only how they are enacted.
But apparently since you don't agree with the laws, you want a system where only those you agree with should be allowed.
You want to repeal super-laws of super-majority with simple majorities, except for the ones that are "right" and not "wrong."

Civics isn't about "right" and "wrong," it's just the qualitative and quantitative way people state laws will agree to say laws are "right" or "wrong" under due process and numbers.
If you make those dynamic, the entire existence of the state by, of and for the people will become "dynamic."
In other words, it won't exist.