Obama

[Jagger69]

Pre-negotiations my friend. In any area of diplomacy there are ground rules. Obama blindly wanders into negotiations and diplomacy with any dictator without preconditions. There has not been any ground rules established in any discussions with Iran or Cuba. Just the patented Obama charm offensive.

Suffice it say, that world dictators and regimes bent on our demise view him as someone they can play. They seem to have him figured out. Too bad I can't say the same about Americans that bought into his BS.

So I take it that your approach to a establishing a dialogue that would hopefully lead to some sort of rapprochement (certainly better than what has proven NOT to work for over the past 50 years) with Cuba would have to have some sort of built-in unilateral concession on their behalf that would be a prerequisite for said dialogue to begin in the first place? Is that what any of our former presidents did with Russia and China? No....it was a diplomatic process that took place over time.

This process is in its infancy and I would say that, as no great lover of Obama's foreign policy in general, I'm OK with what he's doing so far with Cuba. Aside from issuing an immediate reversal on the obvious human rights issue (Cuba has no monopoly on those), what is it that Raul would have to demonstrate pre factum in order to earn the right to gain access to a line of communication with the USA from your perspective? :dunno:

 

[maildude]

Indeed. Gorbachev was making reforms and both Presidents received concessions from their counterparts.

No such silliness with Obama.

Not so quick. What Nixon accomplished was bull. Look at China today. Reagan? I'd like to think Putin is a U.S. ally.......

 

[Jack Davenport]

Not so quick. What Nixon accomplished was bull. Look at China today. Reagan? I'd like to think Putin is a U.S. ally.......

Horseshit. What brought China and the U.S. together was a common enemy (USSR). The fact that the relationship with all its faults is still intact today is a testament to Nixon's legacy. There were positive aspects to the Nixon presidency.

 

[Jack Davenport]

So I take it that your approach to a establishing a dialogue that would hopefully lead to some sort of rapprochement (certainly better than what has proven NOT to work for over the past 50 years) with Cuba would have to have some sort of built-in unilateral concession on their behalf that would be a prerequisite for said dialogue to begin in the first place? Is that what any of our former presidents did with Russia and China? No....it was a diplomatic process that took place over time.

This process is in its infancy and I would say that, as no great lover of Obama's foreign policy in general, I'm OK with what he's doing so far with Cuba. Aside from issuing an immediate reversal on the obvious human rights issue (Cuba has no monopoly on those), what is it that Raul would have to demonstrate pre factum in order to earn the right to gain access to a line of communication with the USA from your perspective? :dunno:

I welcome thawing relations with Cuba.

He could start with allowing Cuban citizens to be the proprietors of businesses instead of the Cuban government. Therein lies my problem with Obama conducting talks with the Castros. A basic starting point that would start a positive dialogue is overlooked. Or I'm afraid, ignored.

 

[Straight Shooter]

If I hand a Cuban friend $100 in Havana, that Cuban now has $100 (which is four or five times the average monthly salary). Now, that friend may pay consumption taxes on things he buys with that $100 at a state-owned store, or pay taxes on the interest he earns by depositing the sum, but the bulk of the transaction goes to the individual Cuban, on terms that the Cuban governmet cannot "control". Yes, increased transfers from Americans to Cubans will no doubt increase the net receipts of the Cuban government. But it will also doubtlessly increase the share of the island's total money owned by individuals. It will, in other words, increase individual autonomy in one of the most repressed countries on earth.

http://reason.com/blog/2016/03/21/no-ted-cruz-obamas-cuba-trip-is-not-appe

 

[larss]

They are not entitled to due process. They are not on U.S. soil. The Geneva convention does not address the new threat of organized terrorists that do not wear the uniform of an opposing state military and where no formal declaration of war has been issued. .

Eggs and chickens - The US kept them off US soil so that they were not entitled to due process.

They are fortunate that they aren't dead, and the only reason they are not is because of the wealth of information they have yielded that have helped us thwart other terror attacks.

Where are you getting that from? IF there were other thwarted attacks, we have no idea where the information came from.

Perhaps you are in favor of the type of due process that drags two soldiers out of a vehicle that inadvertantly drove into an IRA funeral procession and an angry Irish mob kills them in the street. Or the due process that sparks revenge killings.

Don't be stupid. This was the act of a mob, not a major world government.

Or maybe you are proud of the atrocities throughout Ireland's history including but not limited to the horrors of the Irish Civil war.

Ireland's atrocities were not the only ones perpetrated by England, you could add in the invention of concentration camps during the Boer wars and the slave trade but that is the past and has no place in this argument where we are talking about the here and now.

I don't see China, Cuba, Russia, Ireland, Germany,.. Giving the humanitarian aid that the United States offers. We give more than any country on this earth. As generous as we are, if you attack us, try to kill our people, we will hunt you down, and all bets are off. At least it used to be that way.

Not as generous as you seem to make out. In actual funds, yes - $32b in 2014, which is around $100 per person. The UK gave $19b in foreign aid, which amounts to $290 per person, Germany's spend is around $160 per person, which is still 60% better than the US.

The moral equivocation you constantly try to paint is sad as well as weak. The brutality of the Castro regime is well documented and was used against the Cuban people to rule the people through fear, a far cry from gathering information and imprisoning those that have declared terror on the United States.

At no point have I tried to defend Castro or his government. Merely pointed out that there is/was torture being committed by US agencies in Guantanamo Bay, which is on Cuba. Torture is morally and legally reprehensible regardless of who carries it out, and is well known to have few, if any, reliable results as far as information gained is concerned

Now, you have your own dark history you need to come to terms with. I suggest that you clean the slate before you start pointing a finger at the my country, the greatest agent for Democracy and freedom this world has ever known.

I have come to terms with the dark history of my country. It is time you came to terms with the dark present of your own.
I also wonder at your final statement. How many countries has the USA actually introduced democracy to? Isn't it ironic that as the "greatest" agent for freedom, the USA has one of the highest rates of prison inmates per population in the world (approx. 698 per 100,000 not including juveniles). As a comparison, England runs at around 148.

 

[Jagger69]

I welcome thawing relations with Cuba.

He could start with allowing Cuban citizens to be the proprietors of businesses instead of the Cuban government. Therein lies my problem with Obama conducting talks with the Castros. A basic starting point that would start a positive dialogue is overlooked. Or I'm afraid, ignored.

The communication process has to begin with Castro whether we like it or not. Also, however, much of that type of communication is back-channel. Truth is we don't know what is being discussed at those levels. The rest of this stuff on the news is mostly PR fluff so to expect some substantive policy-changing action to precede the beginning of communication is presumptuous. I know one thing....we have a lot better chance of gaining more freedoms for the Cuban people by talking with them instead of isolating them.

 

[Jack Davenport]

Eggs and chickens - The US kept them off US soil so tihat they were not entitled to due process.

Exactly right. We captured these people on foreign soil and they were enemy combatants because they did not wear the uniform of another country. They could have just as easily been killed but because of information we could gather they were not. Most if not all Gitmo detainees that have been released have returned to the battlefield and the Obama adminstration has admitted that they have killed again since their release. Dead or in prison, take your choice. The decision not to bring them to U.S. soil was one of the wisest decisions made by the Bush administration.

Where are you getting that from? IF there were other thwarted attacks, we have no idea where the information came from.

Detainees have revealed funding resources, leadership, means of communications and FOIA requests have produced information directly crediting info gathered from detainees to preventing other attacks. I'd call you stupid but I am afraid your motives are beyond stupidity. More like sinister.

Don't be stupid. This was the act of a mob, not a major world government.

The detainees were not criminals, they are enemy combatants.if not for their info,they could have been left smoldering on a battlefield.

You say tomato...

Ireland's atrocities were not the only ones perpetrated by England, you could add in the invention of concentration camps during the Boer wars and the slave trade but that is the past and has no place in this argument where we are talking about the here and now.

You mean like indigenous people of America? Yeah, point conceded.

Not as generous as you seem to make out. In actual funds, yes - $32b in 2014, which is around $100 per person. The UK gave $19b in foreign aid, which amounts to $290 per person, Germany's spend is around $160 per person, which is still 60% better than the US.

Oh please. Not only do we send 32 biilion annually, we also are the largest contributor to NATO and to various military installations throughout the globe. Countries where they want our presence and where we also contribute to their economy. Including the UK.

At no point have I tried to defend Castro or his government. Merely pointed out that there is/was torture being committed by US agencies in Guantanamo Bay, which is on Cuba. Torture is morally and legally reprehensible regardless of who carries it out, and is well known to have few, if any, reliable results as far as information gained is concerned

Now you are just repeating yourself, see my comments above.

have come to terms with the dark history of my country. It is time you came to terms with the dark present of your own.
I also wonder at your final statement. How many countries has the USA actually introduced democracy to? Isn't it ironic that as the "greatest" agent for freedom, the USA has one of the highest rates of prison inmates per population in the world (approx. 698 per 100,000 not including juveniles). As a comparison, England runs at around 148.

If I wanted to debate left-wing "America is the greatest abuser of human rights in the world" bullshit all I'd have to do is visit an Amnesty International board. Which is where the majority of your crap originates from.

Yes, we have heard the statistics before. There is a problem rooted in ethnic makeup of this country and a certain group just don't seem to be able to stay out of trouble as compared to other groups. We constantly throw housing, public assistance and various other government programs at them but to no avail. What's a taxpayer to do? I guess we should take them into our homes.

You wouldn't know about that, because the population even per capita does not offer a fair comparison.

Wow, you are a left wing loon. Radical even.

 

[Jack Davenport]

From Che to [NOBABE]Cha Cha Cha...[/NOBABE]

This fucking guy.

 

[Jack Davenport]

The communication process has to begin with Castro whether we like it or not. Also, however, much of that type of communication is back-channel. Truth is we don't know what is being discussed at those levels. The rest of this stuff on the news is mostly PR fluff so to expect some substantive policy-changing action to precede the beginning of communication is presumptuous. I know one thing....we have a lot better chance of gaining more freedoms for the Cuban people by talking with them instead of isolating them.

Meanwhile this administration is isolating and alienating half of the American population

The tax rate in Cuba is 50% for individuals and 30% for businesses. Considering what the Democrats want to implement here, perhaps there are some things to be gained with this new relationship indeed.

 

[Jagger69]

Meanwhile this administration is isolating and alienating half of the American population

The tax rate in Cuba is 50% for individuals and 30% for businesses. Considering what the Democrats want to implement here, perhaps there are some things to be gained with this new relationship indeed.

The fact that you have less than fond feelings for Obama and his policies is well known so virtually anything he does is going to be wrong from your perspective. I just don't see the benefit (or validity) in finding fault with absolutely everything a president does.

Side note: Judging from the picture (really hard to tell), it looks more like the tango but I see where your alliteration attempt would have been spoiled by that so nice play on words with the Che-to-cha-cha segue.

 

[Jack Davenport]

The fact that you have less than fond feelings for Obama and his policies is well known so virtually anything he does is going to be wrong from your perspective. I just don't see the benefit (or validity) in finding fault with absolutely everything a president does.

Side note: Judging from the picture (really hard to tell), it looks more like the tango but I see where your alliteration attempt would have been spoiled by that so nice play on words with the Che-to-cha-cha segue.

Yes, I am fully aware it was the Tango and not The [NOBABE]Cha Cha.[/NOBABE]

Just like the 757 correction. Jeb Bush called it a 767 in a debate.

I bet your home is nice and tidy.

 

[Supafly]

...

I bet your home is nice and tidy.

Your new interest in other members' home situation is interesting. Does this have to do with your current president?

 

[Straight Shooter]

The fact that you have less than fond feelings for Obama and his policies is well known so virtually anything he does is going to be wrong from your perspective. I just don't see the benefit (or validity) in finding fault with absolutely everything a president does.

Side note: Judging from the picture (really hard to tell), it looks more like the tango but I see where your alliteration attempt would have been spoiled by that so nice play on words with the Che-to-cha-cha segue.

BC suffers from severe ODS

 

[Jagger69]

Yes, I am fully aware it was the Tango and not The [NOBABE]Cha Cha.[/NOBABE]

Just like the 757 correction. Jeb Bush called it a 767 in a debate.

I bet your home is nice and tidy.

I was giving you a compliment. I thought it was a clever use of the English language. I tried to make that sentiment pretty obvious but somehow you missed it or I didn't sell it hard enough. It might be good if you considered the possibility that not every post is intended to be critical, demeaning or attempting to elicit a negative response.

And it just so happens my home IS nice and tidy....thanks to my obsessively organized and self-disciplined wife. My office (also located in my home), on the other hand, is a disorderly mess to the degree that only I would only be the only person able to decipher the method to the madness.

 

[Jack Davenport]

Apologies, yes, I realize you were being gracious. As a budding aviation buff, I am still ticked that I fell for Bush's error in identifying Trump's ride..
I am more knowledgeable about military aircraft.

 

[zeeblofowl_1969]

I was giving you a compliment. I thought it was a clever use of the English language. I tried to make that sentiment pretty obvious but somehow you missed it or I didn't sell it hard enough. It might be good if you considered the possibility that not every post is intended to be critical, demeaning or attempting to elicit a negative response.

And it just so happens my home IS nice and tidy....thanks to my obsessively organized and self-disciplined wife. My office (also located in my home), on the other hand, is a disorderly mess to the degree that only I would only be the only person able to decipher the method to the madness.

As all the best offices are.

 

[zeeblofowl_1969]

Apologies, yes, I realize you were being gracious. As a budding aviation buff, I am still ticked that I fell for Bush's error in identifying Trump's ride..
I am more knowledgeable about military aircraft.

Have a soft spot for P-38 lightnings.
Fork tailed devils.

 

[Jagger69]

Apologies, yes, I realize you were being gracious. As a budding aviation buff, I am still ticked that I fell for Bush's error in identifying Trump's ride..
I am more knowledgeable about military aircraft.

No worries.

Way off topic but, you are a a budding aviation buff? Does that mean you are taking lessons or just an enthusiast? Civil aircraft are not as glamorous as military planes in general for obvious reasons. However, there are some awesome civilian craft that are well worth learning about.

Whether or not you are an active pilot, I would highly recommend one of the current flight simulators if you want to experience what it's like to actually fly an airplane without taking the chance of getting killed. MS-Flight Simulator X, X-plane and Prepar3d are all excellent simulators with outstanding avionics and graphics (even including full Garmin 1000 glass cockpits if you're into that). You can download literally hundreds of aircraft from simviation.com for free and get a chance to fly planes you would never have an opportunity to in real life. My latest passion is a Misubishi MU-2 turboprop twin that actually handles more like a jet so it's a real challenge to master approach techniques without losing your flare on final (yes, I have stalled on final more than once!). Great experience. It's a really fun hobby if you can't fly very often for real (my active stick time days are mostly behind me) so I fly the sims a lot. I bought a full yoke with throttle quadrant and rudder pedals from saitek.com to make it more realistic. Check it out online. There are tons of YouTube vids that will give you an idea of how real it actually is as well.

 

[Luxman]

I can guarantee that Obama will not be reelected again this year. If he is, I will delete my account.

The country would be better off if Obama stayed for a 3rd term, all things considered.