Obama Saved Detroit

[Rey C.]

My definition of saved is far different than most in here.

Did Obama save Detroit?

No. Taxpayers lose $20 billion so unions keep benefits and lifestyle for making crappy products.

Well, to be fair, that's probably true. Course, your definition of "crappy" and J.D. Power's definition are probably very different too. I'd say that a sharp fellow, such as yourself, likely knows more about the technical term "crappy" than the engineers and analysts at J.D. Power.

Just for shits & giggles, how does your measurement and analysis system work? I mean, is it based on PP100 or something else? And how do you have various vehicles and brands ranked this year? Would you show us your rankings and your data?

 

[Sam Fisher]

Well, to be fair, that's probably true. Course, your definition of "crappy" and J.D. Power's definition are probably very different too. I'd say that a sharp fellow, such as yourself, likely knows more about the technical term "crappy" than the engineers and analysts at J.D. Power.

Just for shits & giggles, how does your measurement and analysis system work? I mean, is it based on PP100 or something else? And how do you have various vehicles and brands ranked this year? Would you show us your rankings and your data?

First: I said my definition of "SAVED" is different than most in here. Obama and his stimulus / bailout of GM has not saved Detroit.

Second: We the tax payers lose the $20 Billion Dollars, and guess who reaped the reward of the "turn around"? Yeah, the unions. (the same people who back Obama) Funny how that worked out huh? "I'll bail your ass out using the money from all the tax payers, and vote for me again, ok? Plus, you auto workers will each get a Bonus Check for $7,000 in March of 2012. And, don't worry about those tax payers who "saved" GM... they don't get a Bonus Check. But, they can buy a GM product!"

Third: GM and most every domestic cars have lagged behind imports in quality for many decades. This one time is proof positive that they are now King of the Hill?

 

[Trident1]

Barry saves GM...........................most of GM's employees work outside the US. Well done Barry.

 

[E-Ann-Hilden]

First: I said my definition of "SAVED" is different than most in here. Obama and his stimulus / bailout of GM has not saved Detroit.

Second: We the tax payers lose the $20 Billion Dollars, and guess who reaped the reward of the "turn around"? Yeah, the unions. (the same people who back Obama) Funny how that worked out huh? "I'll bail your ass out using the money from all the tax payers, and vote for me again, ok? Plus, you auto workers will each get a Bonus Check for $7,000 in March of 2012. And, don't worry about those tax payers who "saved" GM... they don't get a Bonus Check. But, they can buy a GM product!"

Third: GM and most every domestic cars have lagged behind imports in quality for many decades. This one time is proof positive that they are now King of the Hill?

How many people you think are directly and inderictly are employed by the auto industry? Plenty of corporations have been bailed out or recieve corporate welfare. But the CONServative since they thing that everyone that works in the auto industry is union, it is pure evil. W nor Obama wanted them all to fail, again the ripple effect would have maybe taken down Ford and many others. Get a clue on the the thousands of suppliers that support the auto industry, it is just not about GM or Chrysler.

 

[Sam Fisher]

READ IT AND WEEP!


As the president has ramped up into campaign mode, he has studiously avoided mentioning most of his signature accomplishments. One can see why. The health care legislation is unpopular, as is the stimulus. The one thing President Obama always seems to mention is the auto bailout. Given that automakers are profitable now, he asserts, his actions, which were purportedly opposed by Republicans, have been proven wise.
There is much about this line of argument that is objectionable. The auto bailout began in earnest when President Bush, in 2008, allocated part of the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) to the automotive industry. That decision was not without controversy in Republican circles, since there was arguably no legal basis for this use of the funds designated to help financial firms. But Obama's assertions about widespread Republican recalcitrance are incorrect.

President Obama did support the bailout once he assumed the presidency, and he bailed away with gusto. At the end of 2008, the Treasury had agreed to lend only $17.4 billion to General Motors and Chrysler, but by June 2009 the size of the bailout had grown to $55 billion, and by the end of 2009 it had reached $80 billion.

In the majority of his comments, the president focuses on the negative consequences that the bailout prevented and the number of jobs it created in the industry. According to Obama's website, he "made the tough and politically unpopular decision to extend emergency rescue loans to the American auto industry, saving more than 1.4 million jobs and preventing the loss of over $96 billion in personal income." The White House also states that "the industry has added 200,000 jobs in the last two-and-a-half years,and GM is once again the top-selling automaker in the world-posting its largest-ever annual profit in 2011."

These assertions are poppycock. If the government had allowed the automakers to reorganize in bankruptcy courts, unions would have taken a bigger haircut, the automakers would be stronger today, and the government would have saved money.

But the administration's most objectionable false statement regards the cost of the bailout to taxpayers. In a February 28 speech, President Obama referred to this expenditure of $80 billion as a bet on the American worker, and added: "Now, three years later . . . that bet is paying off, not just paying off for you, it's paying off for America." His implication that the bailout is succeeding-that it will not ultimately be a loss for taxpayers-is a constant theme of Democrats.

Information released by the Treasury, shows the current status of the financial assistance that the automotive industry has received through TARP. Out of the total $80 billion that has been paid out, only $35 billion has been repaid, some $7 billion has been written off, and $37 billion is still outstanding. That is, 9 percent of the original amount has already been lost, and close to half is still in limbo.

http://www.aei.org/article/economics...ilout-fiction/

 

[Rey C.]

How many people you think are directly and indirectly are employed by the auto industry? Plenty of corporations have been bailed out or recieve corporate welfare. But the CONServative since they thing that everyone that works in the auto industry is union, it is pure evil. W nor Obama wanted them all to fail, again the ripple effect would have maybe taken down Ford and many others. Get a clue on the the thousands of suppliers that support the auto industry, it is just not about GM or Chrysler.

This is correct. And counter to what has been previously claimed, though the UAW did receive a generous settlement, most of the workers who would have been affected by a Chapter 7 liquidation of GM would have been non-union. And that's simply because more people who worked for automotive component suppliers would have been affected than just people who assembled the components in auto plants. Many/most of these suppliers are located in non-union operations in right-to-work states. And those people are/were primarily non-union.

I don't feel the need (or have the desire) to re-post what I've already posted here concerning how Chapter 11 works. The ones who continue to rely on untrue notions don't seem to understand what has already been said anyway, so why waste my time, right? But long story short, unless there is debtor-in-possession financing, a Chapter 11 reorganization filing becomes a Chapter 7 liquidation. The fallacy that GM did not go through a bankruptcy court is just another myth spread on right wing radio and believed by the lemmings... much like the myth that there was private debtor-in-possession financing available in 2009, when there was not. If GM didn't go through a bankruptcy court, then who is Robert Gerber? :dunno:

Do I agree with everything that happened during the GM bankruptcy? No. Could it have been done better/cleaner/more "fair"? I'm sure that it could have. But did every Republican, who could find a mic to stand in front of, claim that a fast-track Chapter 11 bankruptcy was NOT possible? Yes! Richard Shelby and Pete Sessions most prominent among that group of nay-saying Nancys. And there lies the problem. Only now (well after the fact and the success) do we have these Monday morning quarterbacks rolling out of the stands, nit picking and whining. When there was a need for leadership and ideas, they had none! I worked through it. I lived through it. And I know bullshit when I smell it. Anyone who believes that by some bit of magic that GM could have just declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy, without the government acting as DIP financier, probably doesn't/can't understand the process well enough to justify explaining it to them twenty times. But the question I always ask: where were all of these bankruptcy and turn-around experts when we needed them in 2009???????? :dunno:

Now to a previous claim that "Detroit" makes crappy cars... I use data. I don't waste my time with subjectives and anecdotal claims, like "my buddy, Bob, bought a Ford and it broke down on him. But he bought a Toyota and it ran darn good. So ALL them Japanese cars are better than ALL them American cars". Riiiiight...

The truth is... the data shows that over the past decade ALL cars have been getting better with respect to quality. Just looking at the Industry Average PP100 over the span of a decade or so would tell anyone with basic reading/comprehension skills that. And while it is true that Japanese brands do tend to dominate the top of the J.D. Power IQS rankings from year to year, it is not ALL Japanese brands. It's really only two: Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura. At the bottom of the annual rankings, there tends to be an American brand: Chrysler. But Chrysler is joined at the bottom by some Japanese brands (Suzuki and Mitsubishi) and German brands, while the Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus duo are joined at the top by various Americans brands: GMC, Cadillac, Lincoln, Ford and Chevrolet and Mercury (in 2009). The "quality gap" has shrunk. And it no longer applies to just Japanese vs. American - it's more brand specific than nation specific. That's what the data shows. And if someone doesn't like J.D. Power, flip open the past ten years of the Consumer Reports Auto Survey. You'll see the same trends there.





Not perfect. Not inexpensive. And I don't agree with every facet of the bailout and bankruptcy. But a well respected, long serving bankruptcy judge DID approve it (to say otherwise is a lie). And I give Obama full credit for doing what needed to be done, right when it needed to be done. And that is the part that the tighty-righties hate! Man, it just sets their shorts on fire. A man who they hate with all their being, with that one Hail Mary pass, did more for American manufacturing than the last two Republican Presidents put together! :1orglaugh

 

[vodkazvictim]

I blame the Turks.
Damn that Ottoaman empir and it's hubble-bubble smoking ******s!

 

[Jack Davenport]

Say what??

 

[Jack Davenport]

I swear to god I laughed out loud when Rey stated that he didn't want to repost how Chapter 11 works. Yes please don't. I know he prides himself in displaying his knowledge of all matters financial and the banking industry to this board on a daily basis but we could get 3 different law professors to lay out the nuances of bankruptcy law over the next 3 weeks and never begin to touch on what happened with this petition. Suffice it to say that this was one of the most complicated reorganizations in history. I wish it were as simple as producing cliff notes as I am sure the Southern District of Manhattan wish it had been. Christ this entailed not only required a viable plan presented to the court but then the court was a part of the very source ( The US Government) that would ultimately provide emergency capital. Couple all that with the formation of several sub corporations that were formed just to make it work in the first place such as warranties and overseas operations it became far beyond anything ever attempted before. Rarely does a company have to deal with unions in the midst of reorganization and having to discontinue products that the unions have a vested interest in. Let's just say that I am glad that it worked but this plan was hammered out in such a fashion that many things were rewritten and was far from your garden variety C-11 petition nor could the normal procedure accurately describe it. If Bed Bath and Beyond ever seek protection I may be able to indvlge you a little more.

- - - Updated - - -

I swear to god I laughed out loud when Rey stated that he didn't want to repost how Chapter 11 works. Yes please don't. I know he prides himself in displaying his knowledge of all matters financial and the banking industry to this board on a daily basis but we could get 3 different law professors to lay out the nuances of bankruptcy law over the next 3 weeks and never begin to touch on what happened with this petition. Suffice it to say that this was one of the most complicated reorganizations in history. I wish it were as simple as producing cliff notes as I am sure the Southern District of Manhattan wish it had been. Christ this entailed not only required a viable plan presented to the court but then the court was a part of the very source ( The US Government) that would ultimately provide emergency capital. Couple all that with the formation of several sub corporations that were formed just to make it work in the first place such as warranties and overseas operations it became far beyond anything ever attempted before. Rarely does a company have to deal with unions in the midst of reorganization and having to discontinue products that the unions have a vested interest in. Let's just say that I am glad that it worked but this plan was hammered out in such a fashion that many things were rewritten and was far from your garden variety C-11 petition nor could the normal procedure accurately describe it. If Bed Bath and Beyond ever seek protection I may be able to indvlge you a little more.

 

[Will E Worm]

Is thread a joke? Mr. Obama saved Detroit? I voted for him the first time. but he lost me early on. Where did all the money go that was meant to bail them out? If this is president Obama at his best, I shudder to see his worst. Call me a cynic but, something went terribly wrong not just in Detroit but around the entire counry. I think a lot of people could honestly say, and rightfully so, that Mr. Obama is not ready for prime time.

It will be very interesting to see how all of this plays out. But one thing is for sure - the city of Detroit is flat broke. One of the greatest cities in the history of the world is just a shell of its former self. The following are 25 facts about the fall of Detroit that will leave you shaking your head.

25 Facts About The Fall Of Detroit That Will Leave You Shaking Your Head

1) At this point, the city of Detroit owes money to more than 100,000 creditors.

2) Detroit is facing $20 billion in debt and unfunded liabilities. That breaks down to more than $25,000 per resident.

3) Back in 1960, the city of Detroit actually had the highest per-capita income in the entire nation.

4) In 1950, there were about 296,000 manufacturing jobs in Detroit. Today, there are less than 27,000.

5) Between December 2000 and December 2010, 48 percent of the manufacturing jobs in the state of Michigan were lost.

6) There are lots of houses available for sale in Detroit right now for $500 or less.

7) At this point, there are approximately 78,000 abandoned homes in the city.

8) About one-third of Detroit's 140 square miles is either vacant or derelict.

9) An astounding 47 percent of the residents of the city of Detroit are functionally illiterate.

10) Less than half of the residents of Detroit over the age of 16 are working at this point.

11) If you can believe it, 60 percent of all children in the city of Detroit are living in poverty.

12) Detroit was once the fourth-largest city in the United States, but over the past 60 years the population of Detroit has fallen by 63 percent.

13) The city of Detroit is now very heavily dependent on the tax revenue it pulls in from the casinos in the city. Right now, Detroit is bringing in about 11 million dollars a month in tax revenue from the casinos.

14) There are 70 "Superfund" hazardous waste sites in Detroit.

15) 40 percent of the street lights do not work.

16) Only about a third of the ambulances are running.

17) Some ambulances in the city of Detroit have been used for so long that they have more than 250,000 miles on them.

18) Two-thirds of the parks in the city of Detroit have been permanently closed down since 2008.

19) The size of the police force in Detroit has been cut by about 40 percent over the past decade.

20) When you call the police in Detroit, it takes them an average of 58 minutes to respond.

21) Due to budget cutbacks, most police stations in Detroit are now closed to the public for 16 hours a day.

22) The violent crime rate in Detroit is five times higher than the national average.

23) The murder rate in Detroit is 11 times higher than it is in New York City.

24) Today, police solve less than 10 percent of the crimes that are committed in Detroit.

25) Crime has gotten so bad in Detroit that even the police are telling people to "enter Detroit at your own risk".

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-...fall-detroit-will-leave-you-shaking-your-head

:goodpost:


Enter Detroit at your own risk is good advice.

Bring weapons is a good idea.

 

[Master Roshi]

half the population of Detroit can't even read, the population has been steadily declining there since the 70s as people continue to leave, that city has been destroyed and bankrupted , corruption has taken a very big stronghold there, now would actually be the time to buy up a lot of real estate in the worst neighborhoods for pennies on the dollar and hold it for a recovery sometime in the future, I just don't know when that recovery will be and Chicago from what I have read is a war zone, that gangster dirtbag Rahm Emanuel has pretty much taken the city hostage, most are afraid to challenge him on anything, its a big mess indeed, Chicago has a total gun ban yet those laws have not stopped the escalating amount of gun related homicides and that is because criminals don't care about gun laws and the black market for arms dealing is stronger than ever and will continue to remain strong as more gun restriction laws are passed

http://www.businessinsider.com/nearly-half-of-detroiters-cant-read-2011-5

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-murder-capital-of-america-fbi-142122290.html

500 homicides and counting, Chitown won't reach NYC's record of 1000 in 1990 but maybe they will attempt to break that record next year SMH

 

[Master Roshi]

this is what the people have allowed to enter in politics, simply disgusting IMO, he has mastered the art of doublespeak

 

[Straight Shooter]

half the population of Detroit can't even read, the population has been steadily declining there since the 70s as people continue to leave, that city has been destroyed and bankrupted , corruption has taken a very big stronghold there, now would actually be the time to buy up a lot of real estate in the worst neighborhoods for pennies on the dollar and hold it for a recovery sometime in the future, I just don't know when that recovery will be and Chicago from what I have read is a war zone, that gangster dirtbag Rahm Emanuel has pretty much taken the city hostage, most are afraid to challenge him on anything, its a big mess indeed, Chicago has a total gun ban yet those laws have not stopped the escalating amount of gun related homicides and that is because criminals don't care about gun laws and the black market for arms dealing is stronger than ever and will continue to remain strong as more gun restriction laws are passed

http://www.businessinsider.com/nearly-half-of-detroiters-cant-read-2011-5

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-murder-capital-of-america-fbi-142122290.html

500 homicides and counting, Chitown won't reach NYC's record of 1000 in 1990 but maybe they will attempt to break that record next year SMH

By your reasoning shouldn't we just abolish all laws then?

 

[georges]

Desperate Detroit Citizens Turn to Ex-Military Security Contractors
https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/d...&ff_campaign=manualpost&ff_content=2019-05-04

Another once great town ruined by Democraps