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Microsoft Vista to take over?

bigbadbrody

Banned

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?
I can't keep up with this shit anymore! All this new technology coming out! Guess I'm just getting old. How is this new version of windows any different than xp:dunno:
 
I can't keep up with this shit anymore! All this new technology coming out! Guess I'm just getting old. How is this new version of windows any different than xp:dunno:

Faster, better, more options, a better skin...
Btw, I really like the skin of vista.
 
I've played around with the RTM... it's just as stable as XP, and it's acutally faster if you have a good enough machine.

On the downside, gaming performance is still pretty terrible, and new code = new security threats. I'd stay away for at least a year.
 
It's a joke to those of us around for "Cairo"

I think it's going to end being like " Windows ME".
I have to agree with HeartBroker, this is so akin to Windows Me it's not even funny.

Windows Me was MS-DOS 7.1-based, like Windows 95B+/98 in an attempt at compatibility, but they removed many components to force developers to stop writing applications for them.
The result? You got the worst, most unstable version of a MS-DOS based Windows release yet.

Windows Vista is NT-based Windows, officially version 6.0, but nothing like the original "Longhorn" promised.
It's virtually a direct descendant of Windows XP (NT 5.1) but with many Windows Server 2003 (also NT 5.1) approaches, a new network stack, and a new (and poorly-designed), unstable GUI approach.

Again, this is much of a repeat of Windows NT 4.0 "Cario" over 10 years ago, nothing promised (everything vaporware), a redesign of NT 3.51 "Daytona," a new (and poorly-designed), unstable GUI approach (which they tied into the kernel, permanently fucking NT-based Windows).
And like Windows ME, Microsoft refuses to accept (admit?) the fact that it's not the "Independent Software Vendors" (ISVs) using the old code, requiring the old compatibility.
It's Microsoft's own developers that still use old libraries and toolkits and need the software.

Microsoft knows that NT is pretty much the most over-hacked, completely raped codebase in the world, thanx to "Chicago" (MS-DOS 7+Windows 4 aka Windows 95/98/Me), even though NT pre-dates "Chicago."
As such, they are milking it for what it's worth because breaking compatibility, and actually forcing their own developers to write to the true .NET API (which isn't bad, based largely on UNIX/Java), is impossible.
As such, we get "Longhorn" client aka Windows Vista.

It's been a joke to those of use who were around for "Cairo," a play-by-play repeat from the initial Visual Studio .NET releases to the early "Longhorn" Alphas.
Key insight: It's not surprising that all core Microsoft architects have left Microsoft, most of the "exodus" (largely to Google) in 2001-2003 when it was "very clear" that "Longhorn" was going to be the joke like "Cairo" was.

It's 100% marketing, 0% reality -- many developers came from Apple or the open source world, and it's nothing the latter two haven't already done (and far better at that.
E.g., QuartzExtreme (or anything OpenGL-based, like the open source world's inherent GLX or newer "lighter" AIGLX, before looking at "beyond the horizon" developments like Sun's Looking Glass with true 3D unification of input/output/etc...)
is far better than Vista's GDI 1.1 (still DirectX 9-based) or even the planned 2.0 (allegedly DX10-based, but I think GDI 2.0 is possibly vaporware in the end due to GDI 1.1 proliferation).

And NT 6.0's network stack is a joke and I would never put it on a network.
NT 6.0 "Longhorn" Server is going to be a long ways away!
 
I've played around with the RTM... it's just as stable as XP, and it's acutally faster if you have a good enough machine.
Stability and performance is good when you prevent many things from running correctly. ;)
We called that Windows NT 3.1 and 3.50, but 3.51 "Daytona" changed all that, and the rest is history.
Microsoft will have to diverge many things to make "Vista" work, and that will bring down both stability and performance.

And the network stack is still a joke.
 
GPU framebuffer and geometry off-load ...

I'm just wondering anybody upgrade yet and if so what do they think....i heard the 3-d icons/tabs are great
It's more than visual "eye candy," it's performance (at least when done correctly).

First off, the GPU (graphical processor unit) is more powerful than your CPU (central processor unit) at many operations.
Secondly, the common "Window Manager" (WM) inefficiently maintains graphical widgets, especially overlays of components.
Third, the concept of "overlaying 2D planes" is an elemental 3D managementD -- 2D planets of "textures" (pixelated output).

Apple QuartzExtreme

Apple and it's Cocoa widget toolkit is at the heart of Aqua, with Quartz its rendering engine -- Cocoa is "very clean" in design.
QuartzExtreme merely leverages OpenGL to put many operations of Cocoa and Aqua into the GPU's framebuffer, and leverage its abilities.
It basically can do "extra stuff for free" without any performance loss.

"Open Systems" GLX and AIGLX

The X-Window (largely UNIX/UNIX-like) world is a bit less simplistic, and there are many Window Managers.
The Xt (X toolkit), GTK+ (GIMP Toolkit) and Qt (TrollTech Qt) toolkits are all X11 (X-Window version 11) widgets.
X11 itself is very extensible, but there are an endless set of extensions (including remote network display).
But for a long time, a common extension for X11 was GLX (OpenGL over X11).

GLX can off-load just about everything, although it takes a completely GLX-based Windows Manager to do this.
That is what Xgl does, and various Window Managers like Compiz, Beryl and others offer goodies.
The downside is that it requires quite a bit of GPU horsepower to do everything X11 does, so it requires a bit more juice than QuartzExtreme.

The Accelerated Interdirect GLX (AIGLX) approach seems to be catching on thanx to Red Hat and select others.
It uses traditional X11 and then only leverages GLX (via AIGLX extensions in the X11 driver, which then off-loads to hardware-accelerated LibGL) as wanted.
It's the "leanest" solution of them all, although it only has support of a few vendors so far (Intel, nVidia, etc...), although some "unoptimized" open source drivers do "pick-up-the-slack" (like older, non-ATI drivers for ATI cards).

Microsoft WGF

NOTE: In a previous post, I referred to WGF 1.1 as GDI 1.1, I meant WGF 1.1

The new Microsoft Graphics Foundation (WGF) is a completely new set of underlying components that do away with the legacy Graphical Device Interface (GDI) approach to GPU framebuffer. WGF 1.1 in Vista's release is based on DirectX 9, and still has serious geometry setup deficiencies compared to even older OpenGL 1.x releases (let alone still no "remote 3D display" concept like GLX has since day 1). But it does help "off-load" both newer and legacy GDI operations to the GPU, using Citrix MultiWin virtualization (until Citrix created MultiWin, standard in all NT5/Win2000+ releases GDI applications required a physical 2D display and framebuffer -- this was a personal decision and fuck-up by Gates himself, overriding brilliant architects from Digital, Xerox**, etc...), especially with the new components that make up the "Aero" interface.

**Xerox invented the GUI, including one of the most efficient GUI approaches for humans (tab/tile-based window layout) which is still not widely adopted (in favor of overlapped windows)

But until things are written to newer, pure WGF-based WinForms -- let alone many geometry deficiencies are addressed in a DirectX 10-based WGF 2.0 (which many of predict will become vapor due to WGF 1.1's "hacks" that won't be easily duplicated), it's very, very sluggish and not recommended. Only "pure" Aero components perform decent on modern hardware -- and to make matters much worse -- just like NT 4.0 over 10 years ago (with the adapted 95 Explorer interface), you have to have a graphics card with 3x the performance just to run the "legacy," pre-Aero interface because WGF 1.1 is still being used underneath for the "legacy" Explorer shell. It's the biggest example of how grossly inefficient WGF-Aero is for legacy Windows applications.

And considering that even MS Office 12 (2007) is still a legacy Windows application, as is 100% of Microsoft's new Vista apps, the WGF-based Aero shell is going to suck for normal usage for some time.

E.g., What takes Windows Vista a NV44 (nVidia GeForce 6100/6200) series or a very fast NV30 (nVidia GeForce FX5800/5900) to do with WGF 1.1 can be done with QuartzExtreme or AIGLX on a NV11 (nForce 2 MX), although probably more of a NV17/25 (nForce 4 MX/Ti) for pure GLX. We're talking literally 4.5 years (6 minor/3 major GPU generations) of difference in performance.
 
Hey prof.. u r a real techie man.. i've become ur fan
 
Hey prof.. u r a real techie man.. i've become ur fan
I just an engineer who has been developing and integrating Linux and Windows NT since 1993, well before most people even heard of them.
I also followed Jobs' work on NeXT, basically all the "lessons learned" he brought back for Appple MacOS X.

I have followed Microsoft, and know exactly what they do, and how they "get by."
They still either develop or buy out the 3rd product on the market, and then market the hell out of it.
They have never invented anything, and they only "win" by distribution, bundling, etc...

No one, and I mean no one in the engineering world uses MS Office for anything other than office-level distribution.
It is impossible to use on a factory floor because the formats are useless in a few years, even with Microsoft's own software.
Even OpenXML is turning into one big, huge XML wrapper around BASE64-encoded binary objects of legacy MS Office data, which each MS Office version interprets differently.

Hell, the only reason DirectX even exists is because "Chicago" (Windows 95) couldn't run OpenGL, and when they finally got the MCDs working, it sucked compared to Windows NT -- which supported OpenGL from day 1.
DirectX is a game API wrapper and relies on hardware vendors, OpenGL is a real 3D API, with a real review board and real standards, including a focus on professional-level geometry.
Things that made all the difference when it came to GPU off-load of the widgets/window manager.
 
$300!!!

i think i can live with XP for another year or two.
 
XP "Home" users are screwed ...

$300!!!
i think i can live with XP for another year or two.
Current Microsoft plan is to cut off Windows XP Home security updates by later this year.
And there's really no "upgrade path" for XP Home users either, at least price-wise, only those with XP Professional.
 
New network stack ...

I hear ya, plus you get all the holes in the OS
It has a new network stack of which all the "grey hats" I know are having a "field day" with all the exploits the "black hats" have already exposed.
Microsoft has some "farce enforcement" using signing that everyone will just bypass anyway.
Sigh, it's funny, but that 'ole 4.2/4.3BSD network stack was a crapload better than what they have now!

And to show I do make fun of Linux, they should have the best network stack by now, because they've broken and rewritten it enough times!
But in all honesty, Linux's stack is great for embedded (the best without going to something with a much smaller footprint and trade-offs), PC workstation, standalone servers or (to a point), computational-intensive clusters.
Linux still sucks for large scale or I/O-bound services -- although it's better than NT, let alone NT 6.0, any day.
 

bigbadbrody

Banned
So, I am guessing, none is going to get it?

I am sure not, XP has not failed me yet (knock on wood)

Why fix it if it aint broke?
 
Not in any particular hurry to go out a get it. It wouldn't work on any of my computers because of its appetite for memory and graphics power.

If and when I convince my wife to get a new desktop, which isn't likely at this point, I'm sure it'll be on it. That's when I'll have it.

I was listening to an NPR analysis of it and they made a good point that the importance for an all encompassing, all powerful OS isn't as high as it was when Windows 95 came out.
 
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