Is abortion murder?
- Thread starter habo9
- Start date
ed007
Banned
:glugglug: That is true. :tongue:
Will E Worm
Conspiracy...
No, it's the majority on this site that have the problems.
The deceived masses that believe the mainstream media.
:nono:
I'm all for safe sex. If a woman was raped though, I'd approve of abortion. But is murder? Perhaps but that is just way too debatable.
Will a person ever be charged of murder for having an abortion? I seriously hope not.
Had the same discussion with my GF a few weeks ago. She is pro-life and I am pro-choice.
Will a person ever be charged of murder for having an abortion? I seriously hope not.
Had the same discussion with my GF a few weeks ago. She is pro-life and I am pro-choice.
Lust
Lost at Birth
the argument that most anti abortion folks are pro death penalty is indeed ironic to those of us who are pro abortion. however - what some of us are failing to see is that its ironic to the anti abortion folks that most of us pro abortion folks are anti death penalty. those who oppose abortion consider the fetus to be a live human being with civil rights, so naturally they are horrified that a group would endorse abortion of an innocent human but oppose capital punishment of a convicted murderer. its a two way street
yes the deathrow inmate may have been wrongly convicted. that is the flaw of the law and the if the pro side embraces that the law is flawed there, then we have to realize the anti side can say the law is flawed on the abortion issue. again, its a two way street.
i think what both sides fail to see is the actual reasoning behind each conviction. pro abortionists do not consider the fetus an human being while the anti abortionists do. telling a man its a womans choice when the man thinks a baby is being murdered will have little effect on him. telling a pro abortion supporter that an innocnet child is being killed when the pro abortionist doesnt consider it a human being will not work either. those types of arguments will get us no closer to the truth than eating a bakers dozen of donuts will.
one caveat: the law is indeed flawed. but its the best we got for now, so i'll play by those rules but enjoy the fact that the law allows me to protest it as well. .
do i think its murder? no for the early term. the early fetus is dependant upon the host. it is like a parasite that cant survive on its own. at that point i think of an abortion as simply a medical procedure. as far as late term abortions things get clouded. i think thats a gray area and i honestly cant say one way or the other. third trimester fetuses have more than a sporting chance to survive outside the womb as other babys naturally born do.
so here's the rub. if a late term fetus can be delivered via a cesarean and set in the baby room to cry its lungs out with all the other babies and i came in there and killed it, i'd hopefully be convicted to the worst punishment the law allows. but if i were to abort that same fetus at that same exact time that the cesarean would have been performed, i'd just be considered a doctor doing my job. so whats the difference? we say the baby would be a human being in the infant ward but not in the womb? is it the rule of real estate here? location location location? that just doesnt make sense to me. at that point i dont consider it murder simply because its legal.
so early term pregnancy, i dont have problem with abortion. and no i dont think its murder.
but late term abortion, i still have mixed feelings on the fact that if im in Room A and capable of supporting myself you cant terminate me because im in Room A, but if i'm in Room B yet still capable of supporting myself the same way i can in Room A, you could still terminate me simply because i'm in Room B. location location location
but even then i dont consider it murder, cos its legal. and the woman getting the abortion is excercising her legal right. at the point the issue is with the law and the lawmakers.
the big problem here is that i think the late term issue is a valid argument and i'm not really convinced one way or the other. im not saying whos wrong or whos right cos i dont know. but i have absolutely no faith in either side actually going over those particular facts and giving me an honest answer because they may feel their side is in danger of losing the battle.
so we get back to black and white portrayal of in the womb = fair game, out of the womb = sacred life and batton down the hatches to weather the storm. but i think thats a gray area and not black and white at all and have not really heard a very convincing argument either way. and here's the bigger rub, i think the side i'm on (pro abortion) is more afraid of addressing that particular aspect than the other side (anti abortion). that fact makes me even less comfortable.
finally, notice i say pro abortion and anti abortion. i say that because that is what it is. the pro choice, pro life labels are derived from marketing experts who discovered its better to sugar coat the faction name so that people are more endeared to your cause. pro abortion? oh no no no...lets call it pro choice...it screams freedom! anti abortion? oh no no no...lets call it pro life, sounds more positive! what the fuck ever, i actually despise both sides so they can call themselves gangbang warriors or carpet munching dykes and it wouldnt change a god damn thing. they are for or against abortion. plain and simple.
sorry so long. i guess the short answer for me is: no, i dont think its murder but its not completely cut and dry for me either. and now you know why.
yes the deathrow inmate may have been wrongly convicted. that is the flaw of the law and the if the pro side embraces that the law is flawed there, then we have to realize the anti side can say the law is flawed on the abortion issue. again, its a two way street.
i think what both sides fail to see is the actual reasoning behind each conviction. pro abortionists do not consider the fetus an human being while the anti abortionists do. telling a man its a womans choice when the man thinks a baby is being murdered will have little effect on him. telling a pro abortion supporter that an innocnet child is being killed when the pro abortionist doesnt consider it a human being will not work either. those types of arguments will get us no closer to the truth than eating a bakers dozen of donuts will.
one caveat: the law is indeed flawed. but its the best we got for now, so i'll play by those rules but enjoy the fact that the law allows me to protest it as well. .
do i think its murder? no for the early term. the early fetus is dependant upon the host. it is like a parasite that cant survive on its own. at that point i think of an abortion as simply a medical procedure. as far as late term abortions things get clouded. i think thats a gray area and i honestly cant say one way or the other. third trimester fetuses have more than a sporting chance to survive outside the womb as other babys naturally born do.
so here's the rub. if a late term fetus can be delivered via a cesarean and set in the baby room to cry its lungs out with all the other babies and i came in there and killed it, i'd hopefully be convicted to the worst punishment the law allows. but if i were to abort that same fetus at that same exact time that the cesarean would have been performed, i'd just be considered a doctor doing my job. so whats the difference? we say the baby would be a human being in the infant ward but not in the womb? is it the rule of real estate here? location location location? that just doesnt make sense to me. at that point i dont consider it murder simply because its legal.
so early term pregnancy, i dont have problem with abortion. and no i dont think its murder.
but late term abortion, i still have mixed feelings on the fact that if im in Room A and capable of supporting myself you cant terminate me because im in Room A, but if i'm in Room B yet still capable of supporting myself the same way i can in Room A, you could still terminate me simply because i'm in Room B. location location location
but even then i dont consider it murder, cos its legal. and the woman getting the abortion is excercising her legal right. at the point the issue is with the law and the lawmakers.
the big problem here is that i think the late term issue is a valid argument and i'm not really convinced one way or the other. im not saying whos wrong or whos right cos i dont know. but i have absolutely no faith in either side actually going over those particular facts and giving me an honest answer because they may feel their side is in danger of losing the battle.
so we get back to black and white portrayal of in the womb = fair game, out of the womb = sacred life and batton down the hatches to weather the storm. but i think thats a gray area and not black and white at all and have not really heard a very convincing argument either way. and here's the bigger rub, i think the side i'm on (pro abortion) is more afraid of addressing that particular aspect than the other side (anti abortion). that fact makes me even less comfortable.
finally, notice i say pro abortion and anti abortion. i say that because that is what it is. the pro choice, pro life labels are derived from marketing experts who discovered its better to sugar coat the faction name so that people are more endeared to your cause. pro abortion? oh no no no...lets call it pro choice...it screams freedom! anti abortion? oh no no no...lets call it pro life, sounds more positive! what the fuck ever, i actually despise both sides so they can call themselves gangbang warriors or carpet munching dykes and it wouldnt change a god damn thing. they are for or against abortion. plain and simple.
sorry so long. i guess the short answer for me is: no, i dont think its murder but its not completely cut and dry for me either. and now you know why.
Being pro-life myself, I don't believe there's anything I can say to change people's minds, just like there's nothing a pro-abortionist can say to change my mind. Whether it's legal or illegal, doesn't matter. This will most likely be an endless debate between the two sides. My biggest problem is with the way it's legal, through an decision by the Supreme Court that decided to make its own law. It is WE THE PEOPLE who should make decisions like that through congress, but of course, the elected politicians in congress decided to pass the buck to the unelected politicians in the Supreme Court.
If the day were to come when it was put for a vote and after it was all said and done the majority of the people chose to keep it legal, I'd accept it, would not agree with it, but accept it. But, like I said, the debate would not be over even then. So, what I'd like to see is elective abortions being kept legal but never used.
If the day were to come when it was put for a vote and after it was all said and done the majority of the people chose to keep it legal, I'd accept it, would not agree with it, but accept it. But, like I said, the debate would not be over even then. So, what I'd like to see is elective abortions being kept legal but never used.
Will E Worm
Conspiracy...
The problem I tend to have with some in the "pro life" movement is some of the untenable and impractical perspectives they have.
"Life begins at conception". Well, legally it doesn't since there is no way to determine the exact year, month, day, hour and minute...such as with birth. If so, then maybe the concept might make sense.
A girl or woman who is raped and seeks to terminate the resulting pregnancy is a murderer?? Huh?
"It is immoral for women to sell her eggs." But not for a man to sell his sperm? Maybe we should also marshal a rescue mission to save all of those eggs expelled naturally every month by women in their feminine napkins and tampons.
Just a couple of thoughts.
"Life begins at conception". Well, legally it doesn't since there is no way to determine the exact year, month, day, hour and minute...such as with birth. If so, then maybe the concept might make sense.
A girl or woman who is raped and seeks to terminate the resulting pregnancy is a murderer?? Huh?
"It is immoral for women to sell her eggs." But not for a man to sell his sperm? Maybe we should also marshal a rescue mission to save all of those eggs expelled naturally every month by women in their feminine napkins and tampons.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Life begins at the moment of conception. The willfull destruction of this, in my opinion ,is absolutely murder.
What moment where you conceived? Ya know, the date and time...
Yes, And science confirms this. When the egg and sperm meet and split to form more cells. The moment of conception. Human life.
A question if I may, do you think a newly fertilised egg or even a 2-3 week old fetus is a fully fledged human being?
I find it hard to see the logic behind this statement, "conception" in itself is nothing more than two cells coming together (simplistically speaking). By that logic we're committing mass murder every time we take a shower or sleep. There's no conciousness involved here, how is the death of something non-concious murder? Living or not, I can't see that it is.
habo9
Banned
It might be life but its not aware , cant support itself and it has no brain
Didn't answer the question. We know that conception occurs the question is how on earth can we ascertain reasonably when it occurs so that we can have a legal framework for your beliefs.
Right now a life begins (legally) based on what a human's birth certificate says.
What happens when these conceptions fail on their own as many do? Are those suicides?
Again, when were you conceived?
Do youtube videos from a Right to Life group count as information?
Philbert
Banned
OK...but can it qualify for a Drivers License?
I think not...therefore, abortion is not murder...killing the mother is murder.
Over 3 months is not a good thing...but 3 months is severe premie and most likely a passel of defects and a nasty life if it survives.
6-8 months is viable, but babies having babies is not.
All the meat eaters out there against abortion, and all the killers of many and varied life forms, only find abortion wrong 'cause it's their species and babies are cute.
As I previously stated, I think abortion is a necessary procedure in some cases. It's the whole use abortion as a 'mistake eraser' that I have a problem with. Right now there is no 'line', but it is also very difficult to create one.
