Is a man gay/bi if they are aroused by she-males?

[ChefChiTown]

Gender identity is generally aknowledged in the medical community as a medical condition who's only successful treatment we have as of now is to realign the phenotypical sex with the brain sex. It is definitely a choice to have the treatment, just like it is a choice to take medication when you are sick.

The medical community also acknowledges things like ADHD and restless leg syndrome as medical conditions, so saying that it recognizes gender identity as a medical condition isn't really saying much.

Unneccesary and over-analytical, that's just your opinion. Plenty of people don't care to think about the subject they are talking about, and jump to quick conclusions without even caring to think deep about what they talk about. It's just either laziness or an inability to be insightful about things.

I don't think it has anything to do with laziness or an inability to be insightful when somebody cuts straight to the point and avoids branching off into overly-analytical thoughts and opinions on a certain matter. If someone asked me what 2 + 2 is, it wouldn't make me lazy for saying "4" and leaving it at that, you know?

There is a medical basis for transsexualism, there is not, however, for changing your hair. It's quite a ridiculous argument as well, because whenever you take any medicine, for example, your are defying nature..most of the things we do is "defying nature" like driving, flying, etc. So what's your point??

My point is that people who have surgery to change the appearance of what sex they represent are clearly defying nature. If you are born a male and have surgery to look like a female, there is nothing natural or medicinal about that. I don't think I can be any more clear than that. That is why I used the comparison of somebody having their hair dyed. It doesn't change anything about their DNA or their biology - it just changes their appearance.

Yet most people respect the sexual identification of people who are born with the appereance of a female, and won't adress another person who's intersexed as a man merely because they happen to have XY karyotype.
Furthermore the Y chromosome alone is not what triggers maleness, but a gene called SRY which some people do not pocess.

Your chromosomes don't make you attracted to males, females, both, blondes, brunettes, short people, tall people, fat people, skinny people (etc). You obtain your so-called sexual identity as you grow up and develop your own, individual personality and set of preferences.

The adam's apple is the result of high levels of the "male hormone" testosterone, which females pocess but in low quantities. The penis virilized from what would have been a vagina, due to the influence of, again, the male hormone testosterone. Once testosterone virilizes the body, estrogen cannot reverse it's effects.
Many trannies will never develop an adam's apple or traditional male sexual characteristics because they are not as sensitive to testosterone as the average male is.

You just supported my argument; thank you.

No matter how many hormones are injected into your body, you will never, ever, ever, ever develop into the opposite sex or even lose the characteristics of your original sex. If hormones were so influential towards our sex and sexual identity, then the opposite would be true and hormone injections would give us the ability to decide what sex we want to be.

Please show me where I said that transsexuals are 100% the other sex after transition?? Obviously we cannot change the chromosomes or sry gene that trigerred maleness. However, to reduce people to chromosomes is dehumanizing, and there are other sex markers as well besides of chromosomes.
A person who develops breasts capable of breastfeeding, does not remain as male as someone without this characteristics, despite both having XY chromomosomes, no matter what is your personal judgement on how this happened.

Please show me where I said that you said that...

This has nothing to do with my judgment; this has to do with nature. Nature says that humans have two sexes; male and female. Like I said, nature makes mistakes and people who are born with the development of both sets of sexual organs aren't a little bit female and a little bit male; they are either a male with partially developed female sex organs or a female with partially developed male sex organs. There is no middle ground - it's one or the other.

Now, when children born with transsexualism are young (as in infants), it is very, very hard to tell if they are a male or a female. Unfortunately, it is up to the parents to decide what path the doctors should take - male or female? Sometimes the parents make the wrong call and the child can grow up having extremely difficult confusion to deal with, but that's exactly why people shouldn't be playing God in the first place. We can't control or change nature, yet, we constantly try to make it happen.

In my opinion, if a child is born with transsexualism, the parents should let them live with transsexualism and avoid playing God and stop trying to decide their biology for them. Nature made a mistake and, unfortunately, the child is going to have to live with that. Just because nature made a mistake, it doesn't mean that something is wrong with that person. It's just unfortunate and society needs to leave it at that and realize that, for lack of a better term, shit happens.

Femininity is a learned beavior that some people exaggerate and use it to manipulate others (especially men). Take a look at what Marilyn Monroe did in her movies, for instance, that's when it becomes an art.

Well, masculinity is also a learned behavior that some people exaggerate and use to manipulate others (especially women). The same can be said for both, you know?

But, I still don't get how what you are saying is an art form.

Some people are more predisposed to some things than others, that's when DNA plays a role. Whether your opinion is that it is a choice or not, is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how it happened, what matters is that it just is.

EXACTLY!!! It doesn't matter how it happened; what matters is that it just is. Just like when children are born with transsexualism. It doesn't matter how it happened and we shouldn't try to change it - IT JUST IS. Yet, people play God on a daily basis and try to make Mother Nature's decisions for her.

Also, using the argument that people have predispositions for certain things isn't all that strong of an argument. According to the precious medical community, everybody has a predisposition for everything.

This thread started about if it is "gay" to like trannies, my point is that heterosexual men get attracted to phenotypical females (humans that look female) and homosexual males get attracted to phenotypical males (humans that look male), irregardless of genotype (whether one has XY, XX, XXY, XXX, whatever). Your point is that male-to-female trannies remain male because of the chromosomes. Either way, both statements don't contradict each other.

So, if what you are saying is true (which I don't believe it is), then why don't gay men want to have sex with butch looking lesbians? If homosexual males are attracted to humans that LOOK male, then they would be attracted to butch lesbians with short, man-like haircuts, broad shoulders, flat chests and male-like mannuerisms...yet, they're not.

Or, they would also be attracted to humans that were born as biological women who had surgery just to change the way that they look to have the appearance of a male...yet, they're not.

 

[TrueTranssexual]

The medical community also acknowledges things like ADHD and restless leg syndrome as medical conditions, so saying that it recognizes gender identity as a medical condition isn't really saying much.



I don't think it has anything to do with laziness or an inability to be insightful when somebody cuts straight to the point and avoids branching off into overly-analytical thoughts and opinions on a certain matter. If someone asked me what 2 + 2 is, it wouldn't make me lazy for saying "4" and leaving it at that, you know?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but sex is more complex than you are trying to make it. Just because to you is a black and white thing doesn't mean is the same to everybody. And just because the chromosomes indicate one sex, doesn't necessarily means that the body behaves as that particular sex. That this defnitions works for most people, that's not in question! For everybody, it does not!!

My point is that people who have surgery to change the appearance of what sex they represent are clearly defying nature. If you are born a male and have surgery to look like a female, there is nothing natural or medicinal about that. I don't think I can be any more clear than that. That is why I used the comparison of somebody having their hair dyed. It doesn't change anything about their DNA or their biology - it just changes their appearance.

It doesn't change the DNA or the reproductive system, but it is a fact that it does changes the chemistry of pretty much every cell in your body after a while.

Your chromosomes don't make you attracted to males, females, both, blondes, brunettes, short people, tall people, fat people, skinny people (etc). You obtain your so-called sexual identity as you grow up and develop your own, individual personality and set of preferences.



You just supported my argument; thank you.

SEXUAL PREFERENCE IS NOT THE SAME AS SEXUAL ORIENTATION OR SEXUAL IDENTITY. Completely different things. Liking tall people, for example, is a sexual preference, being sexually aroused by men or women is an orientation. Whether you identify with the male sex or the female sex, is your sexual identity.

No matter how many hormones are injected into your body, you will never, ever, ever, ever develop into the opposite sex or even lose the characteristics of your original sex. If hormones were so influential towards our sex and sexual identity, then the opposite would be true and hormone injections would give us the ability to decide what sex we want to be.


Please show me where I said that you said that...

I guess you are not able to discen what I have written. I have never said that hormones changes you into 100% the so called opposite sex, but that it moves you towards the middle physically speaking. The body doesn't know that that the hormones are being injected, and when the ratios are appropiate to that of preferred sex, its starts behaving as such. You passing judgement on the fact that the hormones were injected, do not change the fact of the feminization that is going inside and outside. Now, I am not saying that all of a sudden you are going to start ovulating and get pregnant, because I have already stated that it doesn't make you 100% the other sex from reproductive point of view.

This has nothing to do with my judgment; this has to do with nature. Nature says that humans have two sexes; male and female. Like I said, nature makes mistakes and people who are born with the development of both sets of sexual organs aren't a little bit female and a little bit male; they are either a male with partially developed female sex organs or a female with partially developed male sex organs. There is no middle ground - it's one or the other.

Another lie, perhaps you should start researching what you are talking about. True hermaphrodism does exist in people. Meaning, some people cannot be labeled either male or female by scientific standards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism

Now, when children born with transsexualism are young (as in infants), it is very, very hard to tell if they are a male or a female. Unfortunately, it is up to the parents to decide what path the doctors should take - male or female? Sometimes the parents make the wrong call and the child can grow up having extremely difficult confusion to deal with, but that's exactly why people shouldn't be playing God in the first place. We can't control or change nature, yet, we constantly try to make it happen.

When people cannot come up with a good explanation of why they dissaprove something, God somehow must get involved.
If "god forbids" you get cancer, for instance, you won't get medical treatment, because after all you would be defying Nature and playing God?

In my opinion, if a child is born with transsexualism, the parents should let them live with transsexualism and avoid playing God and stop trying to decide their biology for them. Nature made a mistake and, unfortunately, the child is going to have to live with that. Just because nature made a mistake, it doesn't mean that something is wrong with that person. It's just unfortunate and society needs to leave it at that and realize that, for lack of a better term, shit happens.

Nature makes mistakes all the time, and modern medicine has giving us the technology to relieve and sometimes correct those mistakes.

Well, masculinity is also a learned behavior that some people exaggerate and use to manipulate others (especially women). The same can be said for both, you know?

But, I still don't get how what you are saying is an art form.

If femininity is a learned behavior, it is only logical that masculinity is as well.
I described femininity because that was what you referred to, didn't know I had to to say that masculinity was as well to make you satisfied.

Femininity becomes an art when is no longer just a learned behavior, but when one studies it, realizes the power of it and use it towards one's advantage. For example, like Marilyn Monroe, did in her movies.

EXACTLY!!! It doesn't matter how it happened; what matters is that it just is. Just like when children are born with transsexualism. It doesn't matter how it happened and we shouldn't try to change it - IT JUST IS. Yet, people play God on a daily basis and try to make Mother Nature's decisions for her.

Also, using the argument that people have predispositions for certain things isn't all that strong of an argument. According to the precious medical community, everybody has a predisposition for everything.

Mother Nature can kiss my ass! This Mother Nature makes mistakes all the time and we shouldn't try to correct it because it was just a disgrace handed to us by destiny? If that's your way of living, good Lord. Like I said above, if you ever get sick and take medicine, you are one big hypocrite. That's the same "defying nature" and playing with God nonsense.
Just remember that destiny and mother nature has given men the intelligence to develop technologies that can aliviate this mistakes and also prolong the life of our species.

So, if what you are saying is true (which I don't believe it is), then why don't gay men want to have sex with butch looking lesbians? If homosexual males are attracted to humans that LOOK male, then they would be attracted to butch lesbians with short, man-like haircuts, broad shoulders, flat chests and male-like mannuerisms...yet, they're not.

Or, they would also be attracted to humans that were born as biological women who had surgery just to change the way that they look to have the appearance of a male...yet, they're not.

A butch lesbian does not have the phenotype of a male. Absurd comparison.
This is a phenotypical male, albeit biologically female: http://www.reallygoodfriend.com/images/buck_angel_02.jpg

All I can do is :1orglaugh at all this.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but sex is more complex than you are trying to make it. Just because to you is a black and white thing doesn't mean is the same to everybody. And just because the chromosomes indicate one sex, doesn't necessarily means that the body behaves as that particular sex. That this defnitions works for most people, that's not in question! For everybody, it does not!!

First of all, please try and make your sentences more understandable from now on. I have to read everything you type 4 or 5 times before I even understand what you are even trying to say.

Secondly, there are only two sexes: MALE and FEMALE. Nobody can argue that. Sex isn't more complicated than I am making it. You are just over-complicating things again.

It doesn't change the DNA or the reproductive system, but it is a fact that it does changes the chemistry of pretty much every cell in your body after a while.

You couldn't have contradicted yourself anymore than you just did. First, you say that it doesn't change your DNA, but then you follow it up by saying "it is a fact that it does change(s) the chemistry of pretty much every cell in your body", which is nothing more than your DNA. So, which one is it? Either it does or it doesn't. It can't do both.

SEXUAL PREFERENCE IS NOT THE SAME AS SEXUAL ORIENTATION OR SEXUAL IDENTITY. Completely different things. Liking tall people, for example, is a sexual preference, being sexually aroused by men or women is an orientation. Whether you identify with the male sex or the female sex, is your sexual identity.

There is no such thing as orientation either. Once again, it's a man-made term that people like to use in order to avoid taking responsibility for what they choose to like. For instance...

Let's say that my sexual orientation "makes" me attracted to women. So, we can both agree that I am oriented to like women and not men, correct? Ok...but, if my sexual orientation makes me attracted to women, then why aren't I attracted to ALL women?

Personally, I am attracted to shorter white women with "a little meat on their bones", brunette hair, green eyes and a nice, round face. I am not attracted to red heads. I am not attracted to tall women. I am not attracted to black women. I am not attracted to skinny women, etc. But, since my sexual orientation makes me attracted to women (in general), shouldn't I be attracted to every single woman that walks the face of the earth? Yes. According to my so-called sexual orientation I should be...but, I'm not.

I guess you are not able to discen what I have written. I have never said that hormones changes you into 100% the so called opposite sex, but that it moves you towards the middle physically speaking. The body doesn't know that that the hormones are being injected, and when the ratios are appropiate to that of preferred sex, its starts behaving as such. You passing judgement on the fact that the hormones were injected, do not change the fact of the feminization that is going inside and outside. Now, I am not saying that all of a sudden you are going to start ovulating and get pregnant, because I have already stated that it doesn't make you 100% the other sex from reproductive point of view.

You're right, I'm not able to "discen" what you have written because you have poorly constructed sentences that contain words like "discen".

And, your body is WELL aware that hormones are being injected into it. Your body knows everything that is going on inside of itself. It might not know that you are sitting in a hospital room, receiving shots from a nurse named Betty, but it certainly knows that it is receiving hormones that it didn't have before.

Another lie, perhaps you should start researching what you are talking about. True hermaphrodism does exist in people. Meaning, some people cannot be labeled either male or female by scientific standards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism

A hermaphrodite is somebody that has both sex organs, which is exactly what I was addressing in my post. That is why I said it is very, very hard for doctors to determine the sex of the child in situations like that, leaving the parents to make a choice. Perhaps you should start reading my posts before you start responding to them with statements that do nothing but further support my arguments.

When people cannot come up with a good explanation of why they dissaprove something, God somehow must get involved.
If "god forbids" you get cancer, for instance, you won't get medical treatment, because after all you would be defying Nature and playing God?

When did I say anything about disapproving?

I used the term "playing God" because it's a figure of speech that people use when describing a situation in which people try to control nature - which is exactly what people are doing when they get surgery and/or take hormone injections to change the way they look.

Femininity becomes an art when is no longer just a learned behavior, but when one studies it, realizes the power of it and use it towards one's advantage. For example, like Marilyn Monroe, did in her movies.

So, you think that exploiting yourself is an artform? From what you are saying, you think that prostitutes are artists too. I mean, they realize the power of their femininity and use it towards their advantage, right? And to think, all this time I thought that prostitutes were just whores. Who knew that they were artists?!?!?!

Mother Nature can kiss my ass! This Mother Nature makes mistakes all the time and we shouldn't try to correct it because it was just a disgrace handed to us by destiny? If that's your way of living, good Lord. Like I said above, if you ever get sick and take medicine, you are one big hypocrite. That's the same "defying nature" and playing with God nonsense.
Just remember that destiny and mother nature has given men the intelligence to develop technologies that can aliviate this mistakes and also prolong the life of our species.

How am I a hypocrite if I take medicine? When did I say that despise people or look down on people who take unnatural steps in life, such as taking medicine or having surgery? Now, if I said "people who take medicine and play God are the scum of the earth", then turned around and popped two Tylenol into my mouth, then I'd be a hypocrite. But, since I said nothing of the sort, I'm not being hypocritical when I take medicine.

I was simply making a point that people like to play God and fuck around with their natural biology.

A butch lesbian does not have the phenotype of a male. Absurd comparison.
This is a phenotypical male, albeit biologically female: http://www.reallygoodfriend.com/images/buck_angel_02.jpg

All I can do is :1orglaugh at all this.

You are the worst argument maker in the history of FreeOnes. In your last post, you said...

my point is that heterosexual men get attracted to phenotypical females (humans that look female) and homosexual males get attracted to phenotypical males (humans that look male), irregardless of genotype (whether one has XY, XX, XXY, XXX, whatever).

...which I then questioned. Then, you respond to that by saying a butch lesbian doesn't have the phenotype of male and try to support your argument with a picture of a woman that looks like a man? Surely, you can't be serious.

Anyway, butch lesbians look more like males than a lot of males do. Case in point...

EXHIBIT A
EXHIBIT B
EXHIBIT C

Using your own argument and logic, heterosexual females should be attracted to those women because they are "humans that look male"...yet, they're not.

 

[TrueTranssexual]

First of all, please try and make your sentences more understandable from now on. I have to read everything you type 4 or 5 times before I even understand what you are even trying to say.

I have made a few typos, but I have expressed my viewpoints quite clearly. And for English to not be my native language, I am doing so quite well.

Secondly, there are only two sexes: MALE and FEMALE. Nobody can argue that. Sex isn't more complicated than I am making it. You are just over-complicating things again.

You couldn't have contradicted yourself anymore than you just did. First, you say that it doesn't change your DNA, but then you follow it up by saying "it is a fact that it does change(s) the chemistry of pretty much every cell in your body", which is nothing more than your DNA. So, which one is it? Either it does or it doesn't. It can't do both.

So you are telling me I'm contradicting myself because you don't know the difference between cells and DNA?? A cell is not DNA, DNA is inside a cell. Cells have receptors for different hormones and that's how hormones exert their effects. Therefore, many hormones do change the chemistry of the cells and how they behave.

Furthermore nobody have said that there is a third sex. What is being said is that sex determination and differentation is not a clear-cut issue for everybody. That for most people it is, is not in question. Whether transsexualism and intersexualism is a genetic anomaly or not, doesn't change the fact that in this cases sex determination or differentiation may not be as clear.

There is no such thing as orientation either. Once again, it's a man-made term that people like to use in order to avoid taking responsibility for what they choose to like. For instance...

Let's say that my sexual orientation "makes" me attracted to women. So, we can both agree that I am oriented to like women and not men, correct? Ok...but, if my sexual orientation makes me attracted to women, then why aren't I attracted to ALL women?

Personally, I am attracted to shorter white women with "a little meat on their bones", brunette hair, green eyes and a nice, round face. I am not attracted to red heads. I am not attracted to tall women. I am not attracted to black women. I am not attracted to skinny women, etc. But, since my sexual orientation makes me attracted to women (in general), shouldn't I be attracted to every single woman that walks the face of the earth? Yes. According to my so-called sexual orientation I should be...but, I'm not.

That's just your theory, not a fact. Most people agree that they didn't choose which sex they got attracted to, it just happened. And anyway, let's just pretend it is a choice, what then??

You're right, I'm not able to "discen" what you have written because you have poorly constructed sentences that contain words like "discen".

I made a typo. I'm impressed you understood what was said this time, if only in this sentence.

And, your body is WELL aware that hormones are being injected into it. Your body knows everything that is going on inside of itself. It might not know that you are sitting in a hospital room, receiving shots from a nurse named Betty, but it certainly knows that it is receiving hormones that it didn't have before.

Perhaps you are right...the body is well aware that hormones are being injected, that's why it triggers the development of breasts and other secondary female characteristics despite having XY karyotype, instead of rejecting them as "unnatural" or "defying nature."

A hermaphrodite is somebody that has both sex organs, which is exactly what I was addressing in my post. That is why I said it is very, very hard for doctors to determine the sex of the child in situations like that, leaving the parents to make a choice. Perhaps you should start reading my posts before you start responding to them with statements that do nothing but further support my arguments.

You are lying here. You made it clear that you are either male or female, but not both. I provided evidence that refuted this argument, and now you are changing your tune.

This is what you said:

"You are either born a male or a female. The unfortunate few who are born with both sex organs aren't some magical combination of the two - they are either a man that happened to be born with slightly developed female sex organs or a female that happened to be born with slightly developed male sex organs."

So on what basis you decide that a true-hermaphrodite is either a man or a woman when they cannot be scientifically defined as either? On their gender identity?? :thefinger

When did I say anything about disapproving?

I used the term "playing God" because it's a figure of speech that people use when describing a situation in which people try to control nature - which is exactly what people are doing when they get surgery and/or take hormone injections to change the way they look.

Do you really have to say you dissaprove of it, especially when you keep going on about how transsexuals are "defying nature," as if we were wrong for it; yet you do that same bs all the time in other areas, for instance, when you take medicine, etc.

So, you think that exploiting yourself is an artform? From what you are saying, you think that prostitutes are artists too. I mean, they realize the power of their femininity and use it towards their advantage, right? And to think, all this time I thought that prostitutes were just whores. Who knew that they were artists?!?!?!

Quite nonsensical to get into an argument on whether femininity is an art or not. It doesn't matter. That's a subjective opinion. Being feminine and selling sex are two different things altogether. Please keep the discussion on topic.

How am I a hypocrite if I take medicine? When did I say that despise people or look down on people who take unnatural steps in life, such as taking medicine or having surgery? Now, if I said "people who take medicine and play God are the scum of the earth", then turned around and popped two Tylenol into my mouth, then I'd be a hypocrite. But, since I said nothing of the sort, I'm not being hypocritical when I take medicine.

I was simply making a point that people like to play God and fuck around with their natural biology.

So what's all this talk about "defying nature" and playing God, especially when pretty much everything we do as humans is not natural anyway?!

You are the worst argument maker in the history of FreeOnes. In your last post, you said...



...which I then questioned. Then, you respond to that by saying a butch lesbian doesn't have the phenotype of male and try to support your argument with a picture of a woman that looks like a man? Surely, you can't be serious.

Anyway, butch lesbians look more like males than a lot of males do. Case in point...

EXHIBIT A
EXHIBIT B
EXHIBIT C

Using your own argument and logic, heterosexual females should be attracted to those women because they are "humans that look male"...yet, they're not.

Because ChefChiTown says I am the worst argument maker in the history of FreeOnes, that must make me so!

Sorry, but your exhibit A - C do not look phenotypically male, and most can tell right away that they are phenotypically female. It takes years of testosterone to virilize a biological female enough to make her look phenotypically male.

 

[ChefChiTown]

So you are telling me I'm contradicting myself because you don't know the difference between cells and DNA?? A cell is not DNA, DNA is inside a cell. Cells have receptors for different hormones and that's how hormones exert their effects. Therefore, many hormones do change the chemistry of the cells and how they behave.

Uh, you said that hormones would end up changing the chemistry of every cell in your body, which is exactly what your DNA is. You said there here...

It doesn't change the DNA or the reproductive system, but it is a fact that it does changes the chemistry of pretty much every cell in your body after a while.

Furthermore nobody have said that there is a third sex. What is being said is that sex determination and differentation is not a clear-cut issue for everybody. That for most people it is, is not in question. Whether transsexualism and intersexualism is a genetic anomaly or not, doesn't change the fact that in this cases sex determination or differentiation may not be as clear.

You're right, sometimes it's hard to determine what sex a person is, especially while they are a child (because they haven't begun to develop yet). But, there is no gray area - they are still either a male or female.

That's just your theory, not a fact. Most people agree that they didn't choose which sex they got attracted to, it just happened. And anyway, let's just pretend it is a choice, what then??

It's not a fact that it ISN'T a choice either. And, from what I've seen with my own two eyes in this world, I'm more prone to believe that your sexual preferences (identity, orientation - whatever you want to call it) are a choice.

There is nothing in your DNA that tells you that you are going to be attracted to blondes, women who wear heavy make-up, Latin men, surfers or people with tattoos. Those are all preferences that you have obtained while growing up and developing a personality of your own. But, people expect me to believe that there is something in our DNA that tells us whether or not we will be attracted to men, women or both - even though there are an uncountable number of cases in which people have clearly exhibited a lifestyle in which their so-called sexual orientation has changed (sometimes numerous times) throughout their life?

Sorry, but I've seen it happen more than once with my own two eyes, so I don't believe that our sexual preferences, identity or orientation are pre-programmed into our biology - they're part of our personality, not our DNA.

You are lying here. You made it clear that you are either male or female, but not both. I provided evidence that refuted this argument, and now you are changing your tune.

This is what you said:

"You are either born a male or a female. The unfortunate few who are born with both sex organs aren't some magical combination of the two - they are either a man that happened to be born with slightly developed female sex organs or a female that happened to be born with slightly developed male sex organs."

So on what basis you decide that a true-hermaphrodite is either a man or a woman when they cannot be scientifically defined as either? On their gender identity?? :thefinger

Hermaphrodites are just people who are born with both male and female sex organs. It doesn't mean that the person(s) born with hermaphroditism can't be sexed; it just makes it more difficult.

University of Maryland Medical Center - DSD: Disorders Of Sexual Development

Do you really have to say you dissaprove of it, especially when you keep going on about how transsexuals are "defying nature," as if we were wrong for it; yet you do that same bs all the time in other areas, for instance, when you take medicine, etc.

If I disapproved of it, I would say so. I've never been known to hold back my true feelings, especially on this forum. So, if I disapproved of transsexuals, I would say so.

Quite nonsensical to get into an argument on whether femininity is an art or not. It doesn't matter. That's a subjective opinion. Being feminine and selling sex are two different things altogether. Please keep the discussion on topic.

Our whole entire conversation is off topic.

Because ChefChiTown says I am the worst argument maker in the history of FreeOnes, that must make me so!

Sorry, but your exhibit A - C do not look phenotypically male, and most can tell right away that they are phenotypically female. It takes years of testosterone to virilize a biological female enough to make her look phenotypically male.

One of the following is a male. You tell me which one is the biological male and then I'll believe that what you just said is your honest opinion and not just randomly stated, weak attempt at rebutting the point I made...

TEST 1
TEST 2
TEST 3
TEST 4

 

[LEGUEN]

I consider myself straight. But there have been times when I have seen some very feminine she males and thought , you know what . I would have sex with her. At first it was I would just fuck her. But lately especially with ones that look like Kimber James I have been thinking I would suck them off and take it in the ass from them.

 

[habo9]

TrueTranssexual , please give it up?

This thread is about she-males , not transsexuals. Plus your lame attempts to justify what you are trying to say are boring me to death

 

[Will E Worm]

TrueTranssexual , please give it up?

This thread is about she-males , not transsexuals. Plus your lame attempts to justify what you are trying to say are boring me to death

Transsexual/ Shemales go to Google, they are the same thing.

Chef is being the instigator here.

You know it's true.

 

[habo9]

She-males are guys that look like girls , transexual think they are girls catch my drift

 

[23lebron23]

YES! you are with a person who has male organs. SHE IS A HE!!!!:eek:

 

[ChefChiTown]

Transsexual/ Shemales go to Google, they are the same thing.

Chef is being the most awesome person in here.

You know it's true.

^^^^^
There, I fixed it.

 

[RichardNailder]

No idea - ask a gay man...........

 

[Will E Worm]

^^^^^
There, I fixed it.

You instigator. :tongue:

 

[TrueTranssexual]

I'm not going to engage in an endless discussion in which ChefChiTown either must be right or must be right, even if that means twisting and conviniently ignoring what has been written.

Not only that, he doesn't dissaprove of transsexuals, but goes on and on about how trannsexuals are defying nature. Yet, failing to mention that pretty much everything we do as humans is "defying nature" anyway.

I have already stated that trannies don't become 100% the other sex from the repoductive/scientific point of view, so I don't see the point to continue beating this dead horse. So called "sex changes," are really sex reversal procedures in which the virilizing effects of testosterone are reversed (because after all, the default sex is female and the penis virilized from the same tissue the vagina formed, only under the influence of testosterone. That's why women have clitoris, which is the penis in men).

I, however, don't accept that a person that looks like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmDNBIkzzgM, is just like any other biological male merely because they have XY chromomomes, and that therefore they should be addressed as a male. It's pathetic and dehumanizing.
No amount of surgery or female hormome shots is going to turn the average man into looking like that. One has to be very womanly to start in order to look like that, and it is people that are attracted to women that would be attracted to her for obvious reasons.

ChefChiTown rejects the notion of gender identity/brain sex...yet, there are many scientific studies pointing to the contrary. It is a fact that male and female brains are wired differently, and that it is possible for a a humans to have a female-wired brain despite having male genitals, because this two organs developed separately. http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

Furthermore, research shows that most often than not mtf trannies are not as sensitive to testosterone as the average male is, which makes them more intersexed. So don't give me that bs that trannies are just like any other male, because it is not true.

"There is a social stigma that transsexualism is simply a lifestyle choice, however our findings support a biological basis of how gender identity develops." said study leader Associate Professor Vincent Harley, Head of Molecular Genetics at Prince Henry's Institute. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081030111005.htm

 

[ChefChiTown]

I'm not going to engage in an endless discussion in which ChefChiTown either must be right or must be right, even if that means twisting and conviniently ignoring what has been written.

Not only that, he doesn't dissaprove of transsexuals, but goes on and on about how trannsexuals are defying nature. Yet, failing to mention that pretty much everything we do as humans is "defying nature" anyway.

I have already stated that trannies don't become 100% the other sex from the repoductive/scientific point of view, so I don't see the point to continue beating this dead horse. So called "sex changes," are really sex reversal procedures in which the virilizing effects of testosterone are reversed (because after all, the default sex is female and the penis virilized from the same tissue the vagina formed, only under the influence of testosterone. That's why women have clitoris, which is the penis in men).

I, however, don't accept that a person that looks like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmDNBIkzzgM, is just like any other biological male merely because they have XY chromomomes, and that therefore they should be addressed as a male. It's pathetic and dehumanizing.
No amount of surgery or female hormome shots is going to turn the average man into looking like that. One has to be very womanly to start in order to look like that, and it is people that are attracted to women that would be attracted to her for obvious reasons.

ChefChiTown rejects the notion of gender identity/brain sex...yet, there are many scientific studies pointing to the contrary. It is a fact that male and female brains are wired differently, and that it is possible for a a humans to have a female-wired brain despite having male genitals, because this two organs developed separately. http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

Furthermore, research shows that most often than not mtf trannies are not as sensitive to testosterone as the average male is, which makes them more intersexed. So don't give me that bs that trannies are just like any other male, because it is not true.

"There is a social stigma that transsexualism is simply a lifestyle choice, however our findings support a biological basis of how gender identity develops." said study leader Associate Professor Vincent Harley, Head of Molecular Genetics at Prince Henry's Institute. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081030111005.htm

You're not engaging in an endless discussion with me because you can't come up with any more ways to word your extremely repetitive, poorly thought out arguments. Since you can't think of anything constructive to say to counter my side of the discussion, you just choose to give up - and that's fine. It happens all the time. But, I do find it flattering that you have said my name so much, especially now that you have quit engaging in a discussion with me.

I also like how you completely ignore the fact that we are talking about she-males (males that get breast implants, take female hormones and keep their penis) and focus on nothing but the medical condition of transsexualism/hermaphroditism, just so you can keep hearing yourself talk.

With that being said, I'd like to ask you a serious question...

I haven't read all of your posts, so I apologize if you have already answered this somewhere, but were you born with transsexualism/hermaphroditism? Or, were you born a male and choose to live as a female? Or, were you born a female and choose to live as male?

 

[TrueTranssexual]

You're not engaging in an endless discussion with me because you can't come up with any more ways to word your extremely repetitive, poorly thought out arguments. Since you can't think of anything constructive to say to counter my side of the discussion, you just choose to give up - and that's fine. It happens all the time. But, I do find it flattering that you have said my name so much, especially now that you have quit engaging in a discussion with me.

I also like how you completely ignore the fact that we are talking about she-males (males that get breast implants, take female hormones and keep their penis) and focus on nothing but the medical condition of transsexualism/hermaphroditism, just so you can keep hearing yourself talk.

With that being said, I'd like to ask you a serious question...

I haven't read all of your posts, so I apologize if you have already answered this somewhere, but were you born with transsexualism/hermaphroditism? Or, were you born a male and choose to live as a female? Or, were you born a female and choose to live as male?

Of course you cannot comprehend what I have written, but is not because of some silly typos, but because apparently you don't have the capacity to do so. Any person that has bothered to read through your arguments can see that you are just beating over the same thing over and over, when in reality nobody has said that your assertion of "defying nature" and that mtf trannies remain biologically male is untrue . What has been said is that, we as humans defy nature all time and that while trannies do not change their chromosomes, the feminization their bodies go through cannot be denied.

Not only that, you conviniently avoid responding to things that have been posted contrary to your assertion that "gender identity" is invented and that there is no biological basis for it. If males and females have sex differences in their brains, which is a fact, and some males pocess those sex differences found on females..you are going to tell me there is not a biological basis for that??

SHEMALES, are trangendered individuals who most often than not are pre-op transsexuals. I posted that already. Therefore when I talk about transsexualism, I am referring to them as well. They are not shemales by mere chance, they are shemales because they are transsexuals, and yes, choose the most successful treatment we know of for this condition, which is crossexual treatment.

You have not refuted anything I have written, all you can come up with is theories and beliefs about what is gender identity/sexual orientation etc., not facts. I have provided proof that although mtf tanssexuals are not biological females, they cannot be classify as your typical male either, because their brain is more similar to females than it is to males and most often then not, they are not as sensitive to testosterone as the average male.

I give you an example of an apple, and you reply with an orange. That's what you are doing. Your last "Test" pictures does not disprove what I have said. The biological male is #3, because I know that. However, phenotypically she looks female and will attract men that like those characteristics (which are mostly heterosexual men). The other women look quite androgynous in comparison, regardless of their genotype.


This is not about giving up, this is about having a life and not wasting time. I have already posted my opinion with enough evidence to back it up. If you refuse to accept it, that's your problem. Hopefully, it will help educate others.

 

[TrueTranssexual]

With that being said, I'd like to ask you a serious question...

I haven't read all of your posts, so I apologize if you have already answered this somewhere, but were you born with transsexualism/hermaphroditism? Or, were you born a male and choose to live as a female? Or, were you born a female and choose to live as male?

If a biological male chooses to live live as a female, is generally due to transsexualism or intersexualism.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Of course you cannot comprehend what I have written, but is not because of some silly typos, but because apparently you don't have the capacity to do so. Any person that has bothered to read through your arguments can see that you are just beating over the same thing over and over, when in reality nobody has said that your assertion of "defying nature" and that mtf trannies remain biologically male is untrue . What has been said is that, we as humans defy nature all time and that while trannies do not change their chromosomes, the feminization their bodies go through cannot be denied.

I'm willing to bet that most people who have read your posts in this thread have little to no idea as to what you are talking about. Like I said, I had to read your posts 4 or 5 times before I could understand what you were trying to get at.

Not only that, you conviniently avoid responding to things that have been posted contrary to your assertion that "gender identity" is invented and that there is no biological basis for it. If males and females have sex differences in their brains, which is a fact, and some males pocess those sex differences found on females..you are going to tell me there is not a biological basis for that??

I've responded to pretty much everything you have said so I don't know what I am supposedly conveniently avoiding.

Also, I have stated my point of view on gender identity and why I believe it to be nothing more than a bullshit term that people take as being a fact of life. It is nothing more than a theory and I have given you reasons as to why that is true.

If a child is born with a biologically infused gender identity that provides them with the thoughts, feelings, emotions and pure, honest belief that they are female, then there should be absolutely nothing that should effect that. Yet, if you were to take that child and raise them in the way that society raises males, that child won't rebel against you and try to keep their gender identity - they will grow up and learn to act as a male, even though their so-called gender identity should be telling them to do otherwise.

Gender identity isn't biological or scientific. It is something that a person develops over time as they grow up, develop a personality and obtain thoughts, opinions, emotions and desires of their own. Society, not biology, is what controls our identity as males and females. For instance...

Wearing dresses is feminine. Why? Not because of our biology, but because of our society.

Muscular biceps are masculine. Why? Not because of our biology, but because of our society.

The color pink is feminine. Why? Not because of our biology, but because of our society.

Grilling is masculine. Why? Not because of our biology, but because of our society.

We aren't born with a biologically encoded mentality that tells us that certain things in life are masculine. We aren't born with a biologically encoded mentatlity that tells us that certain things in life are feminine. We are taught what is masculine and what is feminine by our parents and we are influenced by our friends and the rest of society.

Females don't identify with wearing dresses or the color pink because of their DNA. Females identify with wearing dresses and the color pink because society tells us that such things are feminine. Males don't identify with lifting weights and grilling meat because of their DNA. Males identify with lifting weights and grilling meat because society tells us that such things are masculine. Hence, gender identity isn't part of our biology, neither is it encoded within our DNA. Gender identity is nothing more than a fancy term that describes a portion of our personalities.

You have not refuted anything I have written, all you can come up with is theories and beliefs about what is gender identity/sexual orientation etc., not facts. I have provided proof that although mtf tanssexuals are not biological females, they cannot be classify as your typical male either, because their brain is more similar to females than it is to males and most often then not, they are not as sensitive to testosterone as the average male.

Yes, I have refuted what you have said by using my theories and beliefs, also fact.

And, yet again, you are doing nothing but supporting my argument. You said that "although MTF transsexuals are not biological females, they cannot be classif(ied) as your typical male either..."

If a male isn't a "typical" male, it doesn't change the fact that they are still male, which is the point I was making. If a male was born with slightly developed breasts, he would most certainly not be a "typical" male, but he would most certainly still be a male.

I give you an example of an apple, and you reply with an orange. That's what you are doing. Your last "Test" pictures does not disprove what I have said. The biological male is #3, because I know that. However, phenotypically she looks female and will attract men that like those characteristics (which are mostly heterosexual men). The other women look quite androgynous in comparison, regardless of their genotype.

The biological male is #3 because you know that, huh? Then why didn't you know that the other biological male was #4?

:dunno:

You said before that heterosexual males are attracted to humans who look female, but you couldn't even tell that one of the females in those pictures was actually a male. If what you are saying is true, then a heterosexual man (by definition, a man who would only be attracted to members of the opposite sex, AKA - women) would be attracted to the person in picture #4, even though that person was born a male. But, if that was the case, then wouldn't that make the heterosexual male a homosexual male for being sexually attracted to another male?



The point I am making is that it's not your gender identity, sexual preference or sexual orientation that makes you attracted to someone or not; it is your own personal preference, personality and desire that makes you attracted to somebody.

This is not about giving up, this is about having a life and not wasting time. I have already posted my opinion with enough evidence to back it up. If you refuse to accept it, that's your problem. Hopefully, it will help educate others.

Wikipedia is far from evidence.

Also, you didn't answer my question I asked you. I was asking you that in a serious and genuine manner.

 

[TrueTranssexual]

I'm willing to bet that most people who have read your posts in this thread have little to no idea as to what you are talking about. Like I said, I had to read your posts 4 or 5 times before I could understand what you were trying to get at.

Even after those 4 and 5 times you had to reread my posts, I don't think you ever got it. But this is not because I haven't made myself clear, this is just you.

I've responded to pretty much everything you have said so I don't know what I am supposedly conveniently avoiding.

Also, I have stated my point of view on gender identity and why I believe it to be nothing more than a bullshit term that people take as being a fact of life. It is nothing more than a theory and I have given you reasons as to why that is true.

If a child is born with a biologically infused gender identity that provides them with the thoughts, feelings, emotions and pure, honest belief that they are female, then there should be absolutely nothing that should effect that. Yet, if you were to take that child and raise them in the way that society raises males, that child won't rebel against you and try to keep their gender identity - they will grow up and learn to act as a male, even though their so-called gender identity should be telling them to do otherwise.

Ummm, maybe you should research a little more on this. Plenty do rebel (like I did, against a very prejudiced and ignorant family), others do not, because of family pressures and society. That, however, does not mean that they are any less transsexual and that they are happy living in the wrong sex for them.

Gender identity isn't biological or scientific. It is something that a person develops over time as they grow up, develop a personality and obtain thoughts, opinions, emotions and desires of their own. Society, not biology, is what controls our identity as males and females. For instance...

Wearing dresses is feminine. Why? Not because of our biology, but because of our society.

Muscular biceps are masculine. Why? Not because of our biology, but because of our society.

The color pink is feminine. Why? Not because of our biology, but because of our society.

Grilling is masculine. Why? Not because of our biology, but because of our society.

We aren't born with a biologically encoded mentality that tells us that certain things in life are masculine. We aren't born with a biologically encoded mentatlity that tells us that certain things in life are feminine. We are taught what is masculine and what is feminine by our parents and we are influenced by our friends and the rest of society.

Females don't identify with wearing dresses or the color pink because of their DNA. Females identify with wearing dresses and the color pink because society tells us that such things are feminine. Males don't identify with lifting weights and grilling meat because of their DNA. Males identify with lifting weights and grilling meat because society tells us that such things are masculine. Hence, gender identity isn't part of our biology, neither is it encoded within our DNA. Gender identity is nothing more than a fancy term that describes a portion of our personalities.

Sorry, but I already stated as well that femininity and masculinity is a learned behavior, and that liking to play with dolls, for example, has nothing to do with what is your gender identity is.

My God, you are going over something that was already addressed..being feminine or masculine has nothing to do with what is your Gender Identity.
Some men are feminine, some women are masculine, that doesn't mean they are transsexuals and want to live their lives as the opposite sex..

Yes, I have refuted what you have said by using my theories and beliefs, also fact.

And, yet again, you are doing nothing but supporting my argument. You said that "although MTF transsexuals are not biological females, they cannot be classif(ied) as your typical male either..."

If a male isn't a "typical" male, it doesn't change the fact that they are still male, which is the point I was making. If a male was born with slightly developed breasts, he would most certainly not be a "typical" male, but he would most certainly still be a male.

So with theories you can actually refute arguments. Interesting.
Still male, still biological male...big freaking deal!!! Does that mean that we are going to address someone who, for instance, is born with a vagina, but has male karyotype nonetheless, as a man??? Even though her whole identity and presentation is that of a woman?? My goodness!!

Reducing people to chromosomes is dehumanizing and unrealistic when it comes to people who are transsexual or intersexual.

The biological male is #3 because you know that, huh? Then why didn't you know that the other biological male was #4?

:dunno:

You said before that heterosexual males are attracted to humans who look female, but you couldn't even tell that one of the females in those pictures was actually a male. If what you are saying is true, then a heterosexual man (by definition, a man who would only be attracted to members of the opposite sex, AKA - women) would be attracted to the person in picture #4, even though that person was born a male. But, if that was the case, then wouldn't that make the heterosexual male a homosexual male for being sexually attracted to another male?

I knew that #3 was biological male, not because she looks like one, but because I know from other sources. If a man gets attracted to number 4, most likely it is because he likes women and this person has the phenotype of a woman, despite her genotype. Would that make him homosexual if he gets attracted to phenotypical female who's genotype is that of male?? I don't think so..you can see the breasts, the feminine face...but you cannot see the chromosomes/genes.

The point I am making is that it's not your gender identity, sexual preference or sexual orientation that makes you attracted to someone or not; it is your own personal preference, personality and desire that makes you attracted to somebody.

So how does this challenge what I have said, that gay men don't really get attracted to transsexuals???

Wikipedia is far from evidence.

I didn't just posted wikipedia. I posted SCIENTIFIC studies, NOT THEORIES, that point to a biological basis for sex differences in the brain and gender identity.

Also, you didn't answer my question I asked you. I was asking you that in a serious and genuine manner.

What more clear do you want it to be: Biological males that choose to live as the opposite sex do so generally because of transsexualism or intersexualism.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Ummm, maybe you should research a little more on this. Plenty do rebel (like I did, against a very prejudiced and ignorant family), others do not, because of family pressures and society. That, however, does not mean that they are any less transsexual and that they are happy living in the wrong sex for them.

I never said that a child in that situation would never rebel. There are obviously cases in which children have been confused and felt out of place in scenarios like that and I will never deny that either.

Sorry, but I already stated as well that femininity and masculinity is a learned behavior, and that liking to play with dolls, for example, has nothing to do with what is your gender identity is.

My God, you are going over something that was already addressed..being feminine or masculine has nothing to do with what is your Gender Identity.
Some men are feminine, some women are masculine, that doesn't mean they are transsexuals and want to live their lives as the opposite sex..

How does relating with the actions, emotions, sexual desires (etc) have nothing to do with your so-called gender identity?

My identity is ChefChiTown. My identity is who I am. Who I am is defined by my actions, emotions, desires, beliefs, opinions, morals, values, etc. All of those things make up my identity, AKA - who I am as a person.

Now, why would all of those things have everything to do with my identity as a person, but nothing to do with my identity as a gender? It makes no sense to say that all of those things have nothing to do with our so-called gender identity. I mean, what characteristics pertain to gender identity? If our direct relation to the rest of our sex (male or female) isn't part of our gender identity, then what in the fuck is?

:dunno:

From what you are saying about gender identity, there is absolutely no defintion or defining characteristics and/or traits that can even be attributed to somebody's gender identity.

So with theories you can actually refute arguments. Interesting.
Still male, still biological male...big freaking deal!!! Does that mean that we are going to address someone who, for instance, is born with a vagina, but has male karyotype nonetheless, as a man??? Even though her whole identity and presentation is that of a woman?? My goodness!!

Here we go with the identity again. What exactly, in that instance, would make that person have the gender identity of a woman? Their karyotype? Their vagina? Their presentation?

How does someone's presentation give a person their gender identity? That's what you're saying it boils down to. You are putting a person's appearance and presentation above chromosomes and genetics when it comes to defining factors for determining somebody's gender identity. But, if that was the case, then my gender identity would change the very second I put on a long wig, slipped into a dress and started carrying around a purse. I mean, I have the appearance and presentation of a female, so it must mean that my gender identity is that of a female now, right?

Or, are you talking about the appearance and presentation as it pertains to sexual organs? Someone with a vagina, even if they have a male chromosome structure, would have the gender identity of a woman, right? But, what if that woman could grow a beard, had broad shoulders and the absence of female shaped breasts? Now what?

Do we then, finally, go to a person's DNA for the answer or do we just throw a person's mentality into the mix just so they can pick and choose what they want to be; male or female?

Reducing people to chromosomes is dehumanizing and unrealistic when it comes to people who are transsexual or intersexual.

I don't think it's dehumanizing at all. It's those chromosomes that make us humans in the first place. Our chromosomes are what seperate us from other animals, not our gender identity.

So how does this challenge what I have said, that gay men don't really get attracted to transsexuals???

What?

I didn't just posted wikipedia. I posted SCIENTIFIC studies, NOT THEORIES, that point to a biological basis for sex differences in the brain and gender identity.

No, no, no...you can't use biology as an argument. Reducing people to chromosomes is dehumanizing and unrealistic...right?

What more clear do you want it to be: Biological males that choose to live as the opposite sex do so generally because of transsexualism or intersexualism.

That's actually not very clear at all. It just comes off as being snippish and sarcastic. Why not just say "I was born with transsexualism" if that is what you are trying to say?