Is a man gay/bi if they are aroused by she-males?

habo9

Banned
Yet you feel the need to get in all the threads about shemales...you already left the negative remarks on an identical thread...what's your fascination??

I dont have a facination , I do what everyone else does looks thru threads and comment , I just wanted to see how many guys think its ok to fuck a man if it looks like a girl !!

And I will keep leaving negative remarks because its repulsive , if they want to be a chick , chop it off !!!!!
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
I dont have a facination , I do what everyone else does looks thru threads and comment , I just wanted to see how many guys think its ok to fuck a man if it looks like a girl !!

And I will keep leaving negative remarks because its repulsive , if they want to be a chick , chop it off !!!!!

You love it admit it. ;)

Chop it off? :rolleyes: I thought you liked the best of both worlds? :D

I guess that would be a hermaphrodite.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
And anyway, what does it cost you to refer to this person as the gender he or she identifies and present themselves??

See, this is another reason as to why I don't buy into sexual orientation. It's never about facts; it's always about perception.

Perception varies from person to person, so there is absolutely no right or wrong to subjects like this. Everybody has their own, unique and individualized defintion, so everybody is going to have a different perception, which makes it impossible for anybody to be right and impossible for anybody to be wrong. We use our perception and the way we identify/define certain classifications of human beings as an easy-to-fall-back-on excuse just so we can twist words around until we're the ones who are right.

Also, the way somebody presents themself is usually a total lie. The truth isn't found in the presentation; it's found in the facts. But, people don't like facts unless they support their own argument. If the facts go against their argument, then people start throwing in all kinds of variables in order to avoid being the one who is wrong. In this case, people are ignoring the laws of nature and focusing on emotions, sexual desires, physical actions and mentality. None of those things changes nature, no matter how much people want to believe it.

For instance...

A woman with red hair walks into a salon. She gets her hair dyed in order to turn her hair blonde. That woman leaves the salon with a whole new attitude and starts to feel like a blonde. So, is that woman now a blonde, just because that is the way she feels and that is how she is presenting herself?

The people who involve emotions and mentality will probably say "yes" - she is a blonde. But, people who choose to leave all of the over-complicated variables out of the equation and focus on nature will say "no" - she is still a red head; a red head who did nothing more than dye her hair.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Yes, a "very tiny" percentage of the population that's more common than transsexualism.



I don't have thin skin on this issue, as I have heard it all before.
You are being very superficial with your last sentences. Some people were lucky enough to start transition early in life and do not pocess the male traces you described. Others are not. Does that mean they don't share the same gender identity??
And anyway, what does it cost you to refer to this person as the gender he or she identifies and present themselves?? This is nothing but you trying to make a point.




If accepting others people beliefs is to accept offensive remarks, when I will not. I do accept that there are some bigoted and ignorant people and that they are entitled to their opinion, just as I am entitled to defend my opinion.

Yes, it is a personal desicion. While you view trannies as "males shot up with female hormones," others accept it is a medical condition that its treatable and that we are not just like any other male as you imply.



It has nothing to do with political correctness, but with facts that many people are ignorant about. We as transsexuals know that we were born the wrong sex, otherwise we wouldn't have the label of transsexuals. You portray it as if somehow we are deluded thinking we are something we are not. No, it is about having your sexual identity contradict your so called biological sex and seeking to realign that.

If I'm arrogant for defending myself and others like me from the stupidity and ignorance of others, then so be it.


So... one of us is stupid and ignorant and the other is delusional and ignorant. Hey, maybe we're getting some place, huh? :D

I'm OK with that. Greater knowledge will cure my condition. You'll have to figure out for yourself what will help you. Though some pretend not to be ignorant, every human is ignorant of most things in his environment. Only pseudo-intellectual know-it-alls (who always have an anecdotal or ten to put on display) will claim not to be ignorant. I'm sure that there are a great many things that I could learn about this topic (if it was something that I really and truly cared about... which I don't). But I don't think that I could learn much from a person with an obvious, biased agenda... and seemingly lacking in knowledge himself. But I'm sure there are people who I could learn from. From what I've seen here though, asking you about this topic would be like asking Rush Limbaugh about the state of politics in the U.S. I'm sure I would get an answer, and loads of (biased) information. How valid that information would be is another question. Loads of anecdotals and pseudo-data, I suspect.

Be that as it may, if you were offended by anything I said, I'm sure you'll get over it... and everything will be fine. G'day. :wave:
 
I love my shemale porn but are no where near gay. I cant stand shemale & guy stuff i think that is gay but shemale & female turns me on mad.

There a lot of people who likes cum shots at the end so why no have the pop shot from a shemale its better than looking at a hairy nasty guy some of the shemale are actual really pretty.

But not into them in that way they do have a cock in the end so if you wanna fuck a shemale that is gay but watching shemale and female are just like watch guy girl scene
 
See, this is another reason as to why I don't buy into sexual orientation. It's never about facts; it's always about perception.

Perception varies from person to person, so there is absolutely no right or wrong to subjects like this. Everybody has their own, unique and individualized defintion, so everybody is going to have a different perception, which makes it impossible for anybody to be right and impossible for anybody to be wrong. We use our perception and the way we identify/define certain classifications of human beings as an easy-to-fall-back-on excuse just so we can twist words around until we're the ones who are right.

Also, the way somebody presents themself is usually a total lie. The truth isn't found in the presentation; it's found in the facts. But, people don't like facts unless they support their own argument. If the facts go against their argument, then people start throwing in all kinds of variables in order to avoid being the one who is wrong. In this case, people are ignoring the laws of nature and focusing on emotions, sexual desires, physical actions and mentality. None of those things changes nature, no matter how much people want to believe it.

Well, maybe people should stop dying their hair, wearing clothes, taking medicine, etc.. Most things we do are really not natural anyway.
If you perceive a tranny as male and a total lie, then that's your perception.
Others, again, aknowledge is a medical condition and is a private matter of each individual.

For instance...

A woman with red hair walks into a salon. She gets her hair dyed in order to turn her hair blonde. That woman leaves the salon with a whole new attitude and starts to feel like a blonde. So, is that woman now a blonde, just because that is the way she feels and that is how she is presenting herself?
Biologically she is not blonde....but she will definitely be attracting those gentlemen who prefer blondes. :thefinger Will some get over the fact that the hair is dyed?? Wait a minute, maybe, perhaps..they are really into redheads, but the appereance of a blonde just makes it more acceptable!!!:D


The people who involve emotions and mentality will probably say "yes" - she is a blonde. But, people who choose to leave all of the over-complicated variables out of the equation and focus on nature will say "no" - she is still a red head; a red head who did nothing more than dye her hair.

It's quite a silly comparison. Nobody is saying that shemales/transsexuals are 100% biologically female after transition. What we are saying is that at some point, physically we move closer to the middle or to one sex than the original one, thus do not remain 100% male. Nevermind that mentally we were already there to begin with.

I guess you would insist that because a person that is XY and born with a vagina is biologically male, we must refer to that person as male, irrgardless of what their gender identity is??
 
So... one of us is stupid and ignorant and the other is delusional and ignorant. Hey, maybe we're getting some place, huh? :D

I'm OK with that. Greater knowledge will cure my condition. You'll have to figure out for yourself what will help you. Though some pretend not to be ignorant, every human is ignorant of most things in his environment. Only pseudo-intellectual know-it-alls (who always have an anecdotal or ten to put on display) will claim not to be ignorant. I'm sure that there are a great many things that I could learn about this topic (if it was something that I really and truly cared about... which I don't). But I don't think that I could learn much from a person with an obvious, biased agenda... and seemingly lacking in knowledge himself. But I'm sure there are people who I could learn from. From what I've seen here though, asking you about this topic would be like asking Rush Limbaugh about the state of politics in the U.S. I'm sure I would get an answer, and loads of (biased) information. How valid that information would be is another question. Loads of anecdotals and pseudo-data, I suspect.

Be that as it may, if you were offended by anything I said, I'm sure you'll get over it... and everything will be fine. G'day. :wave:

I don't recall having personally called you stupid and ignorant...but if the shoe fits...Nor am I'm saying that I know everything. That I know a lot about this subject we are talking about, yes, more than you - definitely.
And if you "really and truly" don't care to know about this subject, then I don't think is very wise for you to try to engage in a debate about it.;)
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
I don't recall having personally called you stupid and ignorant...but if the shoe fits...Nor am I'm saying that I know everything. That I know a lot about this subject we are talking about, yes, more than you - definitely.
And if you "really and truly" don't care to know about this subject, then I don't think is very wise for you to try to engage in a debate about it.;)

Yes, the exact "Rush Limbaugh" type reply I expected. :thumbsup:
 
Yes, the exact "Rush Limbaugh" type reply I expected. :thumbsup:

Yeah...call me biased, try to put me in my place all you want, but it's quite pitiful you have to resort to that instead of actually refuting with some logic the statements posted contrary to your opinion.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Well, maybe people should stop dying their hair, wearing clothes, taking medicine, etc.. Most things we do are really not natural anyway.

With that mentality, maybe people should stop trying to change their sex then too.

If you perceive a tranny as male and a total lie, then that's your perception.
Others, again, aknowledge is a medical condition and is a private matter of each individual.

I think you need to realize that nobody here is talking about the medical condition of transsexualism. Everybody is talking about transsexuals, in the pornographic, "chicks with dicks" sense.

Biologically she is not blonde....but she will definitely be attracting those gentlemen who prefer blondes. :thefinger Will some get over the fact that the hair is dyed?? Wait a minute, maybe, perhaps..they are really into redheads, but the appereance of a blonde just makes it more acceptable!!!:D

Thank you for supporting my statement of...

We use our perception and the way we identify/define certain classifications of human beings as an easy-to-fall-back-on excuse just so we can twist words around until we're the ones who are right.

Also, the way somebody presents themself is usually a total lie. The truth isn't found in the presentation; it's found in the facts. But, people don't like facts unless they support their own argument. If the facts go against their argument, then people start throwing in all kinds of variables in order to avoid being the one who is wrong. In this case, people are ignoring the laws of nature and focusing on emotions, sexual desires, physical actions and mentality. None of those things changes nature, no matter how much people want to believe it.

All you had to do was say that the woman who dyed her hair blonde was naturally and biologically a red head. But, you didn't leave it at that. Instead, you chose to complicate things by involving attraction, desires, perception, etc.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make.

It's quite a silly comparison. Nobody is saying that shemales/transsexuals are 100% biologically female after transition. What we are saying is that at some point, physically we move closer to the middle or to one sex than the original one, thus do not remain 100% male. Nevermind that mentally we were already there to begin with.

Once again, I think you are the only one who is talking about the medical condition of transsexualism here.

If you are born a male and make the choice to take female hormone injections, get breast implants, wear makeup and dress up in women's clothing, it is still never going to change the fact that you are a male; never.

I guess you would insist that because a person that is XY and born with a vagina is biologically make, we must refer to that person as male, irrgardless of what their gender identity is??

There is no such thing as gender identity. It's all a man-made, useless label that people use in order make themselves fit into the group that they want to fit into.

There are only two types of people - MALE and FEMALE. People who are born with both sexual organs, like it or not, are a genetic mistake. They are not a seperate, third sex; they are a mistake. Just as the instances where people are born with down syndrome, hypothyroidism or cystic fibrosis, transsexualism is a genetic mistake.

Also, when people are born, they are mindless nothings that have an empty brain, empty emotions and an empty identity. It isn't until that person grows up and is raised and/or taught to be a certain way that they even begin to form an identity of their own. When a female is born, she doesn't automatically know that females enjoy shopping, receiving flowers as gifts, going to the salon, the color pink, baking or listening to Coldplay. Just as when a male is born, he doesn't automatically know that males enjoy football, drinking beer, eating steak, driving motorcycles or armwrestling. Those are all things that we are TAUGHT as we grow up through parental, friendly and social influence.

Now, there are natural instincts that people have when they are born (the instinct to eat, drink, defend our young, etc), but NONE of those things have anything to do with our so-called gender identity. The traits that we associate with gender identity are all things that are developed through personal preference - NOT NATURE.

Nature doesn't tell women that they should wear their hair long. Nature doesn't tell women that they should carry a purse that matches their dress. Nature doesn't tell women to wear eye shadow. Nature doesn't tell women to shave their legs. Nature doesn't tell men to wear ties. Nature doesn't tell men to watch Sylvester Stallone movies. Nature doesn't tell men to lift weights. Nature doesn't tell men to go to strip clubs.

Those are all things that we are influenced to do as we grow up. We aren't born like that - we are brought up like that. So, to say that we have some sort of biological gender identity is bullshit, IMO, because other than the hormones that we are naturally born with, everything we identify with being male and everything we identify with being female is only identified as such because we, as a society, said so.

And, just to further support the argument that I am making, I will ask everyone to do something and I want them to be honest with themselves...

Think of a homosexual male that you know. Now, picture his mannuerisms and the way he talks. Everything is pretty feminine, is it not? Gay men usually have feminine mannuerisms and gay men usually speak in a feminine way; not with a feminine voice, but in a feminine way.

We aren't born with pre-programmed mannuerisms. We aren't born with pre-programmed ways of talking. Those are things that we get from other people (our parents, our friends, our family, our schoolmates, our co-workers, etc) as we grow up. That homosexual male that you are thinking of doesn't do what he does because his biology is telling him to; he is doing what he does because that is what our society is telling him to do. He honestly believes that he is supposed to be moving and talking like that, so he does it. There is nothing in nature that is making him do those things; only his own mentality.

Gender identity is just another made up term that people rely on in order to avoid any personal responsibility for how they are.

:2 cents:
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Yeah...call me biased, try to put me in my place all you want, but it's quite pitiful you have to resort to that instead of actually refuting with some logic the statements posted contrary to your opinion.

And I would ask you to do the same. I mean, this thread was fairly peaceful until someone chimed in with: "a bunch of biofacist fools who think that because they were taught in kindergarden..." That wasn't very nice, now was it? Who was that? Do you remember? Hmm, yes, heck of a way to begin a "debate", as you call it. It's a shits & giggles session, BTW - like most every other thread on here. ;)

The OP asked for opinions. The OP received a number of opinions. Apparently some of those opinions didn't click with your way of thinking and, here we are. Calpoon posed an interesting question, but I'm not aware of much that you've added except for some anecdotals. And I have no doubt that you know things about this topic. As to whether those things are actually valid, I have no idea. I can't assess that because you've been unable to effectively and clearly communicate your "vast knowledge" in any sort of objective, data based fashion. So again, here we are.

And the Limbauh comment came about because of this:
And if you "really and truly" don't care to know about this subject, then I don't think is very wise for you to try to engage in a debate about it.

Perhaps, at some point, we'll meet again in a thread dealing with a topic near & dear to me. Let's say economic theory or current business conditions. It's possible that you'll be as well versed on those topics as I am. But whether you are or not, I promise you, I will be able to present any strong belief that I have in an objective fashion. But if I, like you, am unable to do that, I won't try to beat a dead horse by insisting that because of my degrees and the fact that I know 20 bankers, I know a hole bunch about the topic... and I'm right and you're wrong. That's the Limbaugh way: I say I know, so I know. If we meet in such a thread, I will not be defensive or claim that because the topic is not passionate to you, you shouldn't be posting in it. That is an embrace of continuing ignorance.

We apparently have a difference of opinion on this topic. And given that you've yet to provide any sort of objective, rational, logical reason for me to do so, I'm not inclined to change my opinion. So the difference of opinion stands. And IMO, the most productive thing both of us can do at this point is to simply agree to disagree. But you can choose whichever path that best suits you. As I've said, you'll either get over it... or you won't. Either way :dunno:

Again, G'day. :wave:
 
With that mentality, maybe people should stop trying to change their sex then too.



I think you need to realize that nobody here is talking about the medical condition of transsexualism. Everybody is talking about transsexuals, in the pornographic, "chicks with dicks" sense.

Shemales,very often are pre-op transsexuals trying to make enough money to have the surgery. Some are happy at that stage because they see the value that having a penis has, and do not seek the operation. If they are "chicks with dicks" it is because of their medical condition, not by mere whim.


Thank you for supporting my statement of...


All you had to do was say that the woman who dyed her hair blonde was naturally and biologically a red head. But, you didn't leave it at that. Instead, you chose to complicate things by involving attraction, desires, perception, etc.

Why I chose to 'complicate thing by involving attraction, desires and perception,' etc? Because that is what is being talked about here...about who gets attracted to shemales, not about wether someone truely changes their biological sex or Chromosomal karyotype for that matter.

Comparing dying one's hair blonde because one wansts to be a blonde is not the same as realigning your phenotypical sex because your brain sex contradicts your genital sex. There is biological basis for a person to feel trapped in the wrong sex, there is not, however, to wanting to be blonde or another race or another specie.

It is a fact that hormones, for example, influence brain development during pregnancy, and that it affects how male or female we identify as.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make.



Once again, I think you are the only one who is talking about the medical condition of transsexualism here.

If you are born a male and make the choice to take female hormone injections, get breast implants, wear makeup and dress up in women's clothing, it is still never going to change the fact that you are a male; never.
You mean to say that is never going to change that fact that your karyotype is XY, inspite of being hormonally and phenotypically female and gonadally asexual, whether assisted or not. Plenty of women have XY chromosomes. Yes, it is an anomaly, but an analomy that exists and is constant just like transsexualism.


here is no such thing as gender identity. It's all a man-made, useless label that people use in order make themselves fit into the group that they want to fit into.

There are only two types of people - MALE and FEMALE. People who are born with both sexual organs, like it or not, are a genetic mistake. They are not a seperate, third sex; they are a mistake. Just as the instances where people are born with down syndrome, hypothyroidism or cystic fibrosis, transsexualism is a genetic mistake.

A mistake that is too common to dismiss it and ignore it. While it is true that among humans, there is male and female, the sexes are not as "opposite" or different as you suggest, especially when it can only take adjusting the hormonal sex ratios to completely change the phenotypical sex characteristics. Nevermind that both sexes have the capacity to develop into either sex during foetal development, and that the virilization of of the male fetus only takes place when sufficient amounts of testosterone is present. In many, many cases, complete virilization does not occur.

Also, when people are born, they are mindless nothings that have an empty brain, empty emotions and an empty identity. It isn't until that person grows up and is raised and/or taught to be a certain way that they even begin to form an identity of their own. When a female is born, she doesn't automatically know that females enjoy shopping, receiving flowers as gifts, going to the salon, the color pink, baking or listening to Coldplay. Just as when a male is born, he doesn't automatically know that males enjoy football, drinking beer, eating steak, driving motorcycles or armwrestling. Those are all things that we are TAUGHT as we grow up through parental, friendly and social influence.

Now, there are natural instincts that people have when they are born (the instinct to eat, drink, defend our young, etc), but NONE of those things have anything to do with our so-called gender identity. The traits that we associate with gender identity are all things that are developed through personal preference - NOT NATURE.

Nature doesn't tell women that they should wear their hair long. Nature doesn't tell women that they should carry a purse that matches their dress. Nature doesn't tell women to wear eye shadow. Nature doesn't tell women to shave their legs. Nature doesn't tell men to wear ties. Nature doesn't tell men to watch Sylvester Stallone movies. Nature doesn't tell men to lift weights. Nature doesn't tell men to go to strip clubs.

Those are all things that we are influenced to do as we grow up. We aren't born like that - we are brought up like that. So, to say that we have some sort of biological gender identity is bullshit, IMO, because other than the hormones that we are naturally born with, everything we identify with being male and everything we identify with being female is only identified as such because we, as a society, said so.

I don't agree that to to be female you have to like shopping, receiving flowers, etc. or that to be male you have to like sports. Those are just stereotypes. And definitely, my sexual identification with womanhood doesn't come from wanting to play with dolls or liking long hair. It is completely different.

Femininity is very artificial, even moreso than masculinity, and it is an art that some master well but others do not. It has nothing to do with one's inner sense of sexual identity.

And, just to further support the argument that I am making, I will ask everyone to do something and I want them to be honest with themselves...

Think of a homosexual male that you know. Now, picture his mannuerisms and the way he talks. Everything is pretty feminine, is it not? Gay men usually have feminine mannuerisms and gay men usually speak in a feminine way; not with a feminine voice, but in a feminine way.

We aren't born with pre-programmed mannuerisms. We aren't born with pre-programmed ways of talking. Those are things that we get from other people (our parents, our friends, our family, our schoolmates, our co-workers, etc) as we grow up. That homosexual male that you are thinking of doesn't do what he does because his biology is telling him to; he is doing what he does because that is what our society is telling him to do. He honestly believes that he is supposed to be moving and talking like that, so he does it. There is nothing in nature that is making him do those things; only his own mentality.

I said it above, femininity and masculinity is an art and has nothing to do with one's inner sense of sexual identity.

Gender identity is just another made up term that people rely on in order to avoid any personal responsibility for how they are.

:2 cents:

Gender identiy is a term made up to distinguish a class of people from the general population which do not pocess those traces, those who's sexual identity contradicts their biological sex. That some manifest it with their behaviors is a different story. I can dress up as male, for example, put on an act of ridiculous masculinity, yet it wont still change the fact that I don't identify with the male sex regardless of me having XY karyotype. Therefore, transitioning has made my life easier and why shouldn't I try to make my life more fulfilling?? I am not going to be apologetic about that!!
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Shemales,very often are pre-op transsexuals trying to make enough money to have the surgery. Some are happy at that stage because they see the value that having a penis has, and do not seek the operation. If they are "chicks with dicks" it is because of their medical condition, not by mere whim.

Once again, we aren't talking about the medical condition of transsexualism here. If a person who is born a male has a surgery to make himself look like a woman, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with any sort of medical condition. It is a personal choice that they make and nothing more.

Why I chose to 'complicate thing by involving attraction, desires and perception,' etc? Because that is what is being talked about here...about who gets attracted to shemales, not about wether someone truely changes their biological sex or Chromosomal karyotype for that matter.

You were the one who over-complicated this thread in the first place. I'm not the one who started throwing out all sorts of unnecessarily, over-analytical points of view on human sexuality, gender orientation or medically-related information as it pertains to transsexualism; that was all you.

Comparing dying one's hair blonde because one wansts to be a blonde is not the same as realigning your phenotypical sex because your brain sex contradicts your genital sex. There is biological basis for a person to feel trapped in the wrong sex, there is not, however, to wanting to be blonde or another race or another specie.

Yes, it is the same because it all has to do with choice, not some sort of God given, natural, biological imprint that is encoded within your DNA. If you dye your hair, you are defying nature. If you try and change yourself from a man to a woman, you are defying nature. It's that simple.

You are either born a male or a female. The unfortunate few who are born with both sex organs aren't some magical combination of the two - they are either a man that happened to be born with slightly developed female sex organs or a female that happened to be born with slightly developed male sex organs.

It is a fact that hormones, for example, influence brain development during pregnancy, and that it affects how male or female we identify as.

It is a fact that hormones aren't what make somebody a man or a woman. Do hormones have an effect on us and our brain activity? Yes. But, it's not some sort of uncontrollable deity that controls who we are and what we do. What I mean is...

If a male starts taking large doses of estrogen (the female hormone), it isn't going to change him into a woman. He might develop some minute characteristics that are commonly present in females, such as the accumulation of fat around the chest (AKA - breasts), but it will never make him a woman, no matter how much estrogen he takes. He will never lose his penis and develop a vagina. He will never lose his Adam's apple. He will never develop a uterus or ovaries or the ability to give birth to a child. He will be nothing more than a male who has taken female hormones - nothing more.

You mean to say that is never going to change that fact that your karyotype is XY, inspite of being hormonally and phenotypically female and gonadally asexual, whether assisted or not. Plenty of women have XY chromosomes. Yes, it is an anomaly, but an analomy that exists and is constant just like transsexualism.

No, I mean to say what I already said. If you are born a male, no matter what happens throughout the course of your life, you will always be a male.

A mistake that is too common to dismiss it and ignore it. While it is true that among humans, there is male and female, the sexes are not as "opposite" or different as you suggest, especially when it can only take adjusting the hormonal sex ratios to completely change the phenotypical sex characteristics. Nevermind that both sexes have the capacity to develop into either sex during foetal development, and that the virilization of of the male fetus only takes place when sufficient amounts of testosterone is present. In many, many cases, complete virilization does not occur.

Males and females have their simliarities, but there are far more differences that are found between the two sexes. I think the biggest one, and most valid, is that women are naturally given the ability to create life inside of them and men are not. Is that the one, single deciding factor that makes us either a male or a female? No, but it's impossible to argue against our biological, naturally given genetics.

I don't agree that to to be female you have to like shopping, receiving flowers, etc. or that to be male you have to like sports. Those are just stereotypes. And definitely, my sexual identification with womanhood doesn't come from wanting to play with dolls or liking long hair. It is completely different.

Obviously, those were stereotypes. I chose to use them to illustrate my point that gender identification is nothing but a loosely translated, weak attempt at using science to validate the way we are.

I said it above, femininity and masculinity is an art and has nothing to do with one's inner sense of sexual identity.

How, exactly, is it an art?

Gender identiy is a term made up to distinguish a class of people from the general population which do not pocess those traces, those who's sexual identity contradicts their biological sex. That some manifest it with their behaviors is a different story. I can dress up as male, for example, put on an act of ridiculous masculinity, yet it wont still change the fact that I don't identify with the male sex regardless of me having XY karyotype. Therefore, transitioning has made my life easier and why shouldn't I try to make my life more fulfilling?? I am not going to be apologetic about that!!

Your so-called sexual identity is still nothing more than your own, unique, individual outlook on sex, love, attraction, etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with nature, your biology or your DNA. It is part of your personality that you have developed over time, which includes a lot of personal preference and individual choice.

Just think of this...

If there was someone out there who had the same exact biology and the same exact DNA as you, I can guarantee that they wouldn't have the same exact sexual preference as you. Why? Because, they wouldn't have been raised in the same exact place or in the same exact way as you were. They would've grown up around different surroundings, different ways of life and different people. This is why I say that gender identity is just a term that people use in order to free themselves of any personal responsibility for living the way that they do.

Are you comfortable and happy living the way that you do? It seems like it and I won't argue...good for you. But, it's all because you are doing the things that you choose to do - the things that make you happy - not because nature made you that way.
 
Once again, we aren't talking about the medical condition of transsexualism here. If a person who is born a male has a surgery to make himself look like a woman, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with any sort of medical condition. It is a personal choice that they make and nothing more.

Gender identity is generally aknowledged in the medical community as a medical condition who's only successful treatment we have as of now is to realign the phenotypical sex with the brain sex. It is definitely a choice to have the treatment, just like it is a choice to take medication when you are sick.

You were the one who over-complicated this thread in the first place. I'm not the one who started throwing out all sorts of unnecessarily, over-analytical points of view on human sexuality, gender orientation or medically-related information as it pertains to transsexualism; that was all you.

Unneccesary and over-analytical, that's just your opinion. Plenty of people don't care to think about the subject they are talking about, and jump to quick conclusions without even caring to think deep about what they talk about. It's just either laziness or an inability to be insightful about things.

Yes, it is the same because it all has to do with choice, not some sort of God given, natural, biological imprint that is encoded within your DNA. If you dye your hair, you are defying nature. If you try and change yourself from a man to a woman, you are defying nature. It's that simple.
There is a medical basis for transsexualism, there is not, however, for changing your hair. It's quite a ridiculous argument as well, because whenever you take any medicine, for example, your are defying nature..most of the things we do is "defying nature" like driving, flying, etc. So what's your point??

You are either born a male or a female. The unfortunate few who are born with both sex organs aren't some magical combination of the two - they are either a man that happened to be born with slightly developed female sex organs or a female that happened to be born with slightly developed male sex organs.

Yet most people respect the sexual identification of people who are born with the appereance of a female, and won't adress another person who's intersexed as a man merely because they happen to have XY karyotype.
Furthermore the Y chromosome alone is not what triggers maleness, but a gene called SRY which some people do not pocess.

It is a fact that hormones aren't what make somebody a man or a woman. Do hormones have an effect on us and our brain activity? Yes. But, it's not some sort of uncontrollable deity that controls who we are and what we do. What I mean is...

If a male starts taking large doses of estrogen (the female hormone), it isn't going to change him into a woman. He might develop some minute characteristics that are commonly present in females, such as the accumulation of fat around the chest (AKA - breasts), but it will never make him a woman, no matter how much estrogen he takes. He will never lose his penis and develop a vagina. He will never lose his Adam's apple. He will never develop a uterus or ovaries or the ability to give birth to a child. He will be nothing more than a male who has taken female hormones - nothing more.

The adam's apple is the result of high levels of the "male hormone" testosterone, which females pocess but in low quantities. The penis virilized from what would have been a vagina, due to the influence of, again, the male hormone testosterone. Once testosterone virilizes the body, estrogen cannot reverse it's effects.
Many trannies will never develop an adam's apple or traditional male sexual characteristics because they are not as sensitive to testosterone as the average male is.

No, I mean to say what I already said. If you are born a male, no matter what happens throughout the course of your life, you will always be a male.

Please show me where I said that transsexuals are 100% the other sex after transition?? Obviously we cannot change the chromosomes or sry gene that trigerred maleness. However, to reduce people to chromosomes is dehumanizing, and there are other sex markers as well besides of chromosomes.
A person who develops breasts capable of breastfeeding, does not remain as male as someone without this characteristics, despite both having XY chromomosomes, no matter what is your personal judgement on how this happened.


Males and females have their simliarities, but there are far more differences that are found between the two sexes. I think the biggest one, and most valid, is that women are naturally given the ability to create life inside of them and men are not. Is that the one, single deciding factor that makes us either a male or a female? No, but it's impossible to argue against our biological, naturally given genetics.

XY fetuses have all the capacity to develop a female reproductive system, it is the SRY gene in the Y chromosome that triggers the differentiation of the gonads into testes instead of ovaries, and the reabsorbtion of the female reproductive ducts.

Obviously, those were stereotypes. I chose to use them to illustrate my point that gender identification is nothing but a loosely translated, weak attempt at using science to validate the way we are.



How, exactly, is it an art?

Femininity is a learned beavior that some people exaggerate and use it to manipulate others (especially men). Take a look at what Marilyn Monroe did in her movies, for instance, that's when it becomes an art.

Your so-called sexual identity is still nothing more than your own, unique, individual outlook on sex, love, attraction, etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with nature, your biology or your DNA. It is part of your personality that you have developed over time, which includes a lot of personal preference and individual choice.

Just think of this...

If there was someone out there who had the same exact biology and the same exact DNA as you, I can guarantee that they wouldn't have the same exact sexual preference as you. Why? Because, they wouldn't have been raised in the same exact place or in the same exact way as you were. They would've grown up around different surroundings, different ways of life and different people. This is why I say that gender identity is just a term that people use in order to free themselves of any personal responsibility for living the way that they do.

Are you comfortable and happy living the way that you do? It seems like it and I won't argue...good for you. But, it's all because you are doing the things that you choose to do - the things that make you happy - not because nature made you that way.

Some people are more predisposed to some things than others, that's when DNA plays a role. Whether your opinion is that it is a choice or not, is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how it happened, what matters is that it just is.

This thread started about if it is "gay" to like trannies, my point is that heterosexual men get attracted to phenotypical females (humans that look female) and homosexual males get attracted to phenotypical males (humans that look male), irregardless of genotype (whether one has XY, XX, XXY, XXX, whatever). Your point is that male-to-female trannies remain male because of the chromosomes. Either way, both statements don't contradict each other.
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
Yes, it is the same because it all has to do with choice, not some sort of God given, natural, biological imprint that is encoded within your DNA. If you dye your hair, you are defying nature. If you try and change yourself from a man to a woman, you are defying nature. It's that simple.

No, I mean to say what I already said. If you are born a male, no matter what happens throughout the course of your life, you will always be a male.

Who cares what nature wants if God is taken out.


Do you worship Gaia?
Because you sound like a follower.
 
Do you worship butts?

because you sound like an asshole.
 
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