Iraq War

[Imagine]

What do you mean by "this time"?

I meant to imply that they didn't do their job in planning the Iraq war, or as an alternative, they did but they are idiots. Apparently, when the war started, they had expected that today, Iraq would be stable, democratic and US-friendly with less than 5000 American soldiers stationed there.

I added "this time" without thinking about it, but they have supposedly done something that's in their job description, and maybe even got it right. The Iraqi war is not one of those things, though.

 

[HeartBroker]

I just hope and pray we can solve that shit and get out!

 

[pathfinder]

Protect us from whom? Jesus. This damn country is not in any danger
the buildings in NY were supposedly hit by rogues, but definitely not by any nation or other. We're not in any damn danger, except from our own leaders imo.
Fox

Wow... you have a truly skewed view of reality to think we're not in danger. Rogues??? WTF dude.

Air raid sirens? Ask people in THIS country. It was done here, even though nothing actually fell out of the sky. There was this little thing called the Cuban Missile Crisis though... that had a lot of peoples' sphincters contracted tighter than two coats of paint.

The environment? It's not like the US is the only country that pollutes and deforests and all those other Earth-unfriendly things. But we surely go more out of our way to regulate the damage we do than some countries. Like Russia... the ones that dump all their nuclear waste into the ocean. Like China (IIRC) who refuse to follow the rules when it comes to over fishing and hunting whales. And vehicle emissions? Do you think all those 3rd Worlds that have cars have the same standards as us, if any? I'd venture a guess that the entire continent of Africa has no set standards for that.

 

[pathfinder]

I meant to imply that they didn't do their job in planning the Iraq war, or as an alternative, they did but they are idiots. Apparently, when the war started, they had expected that today, Iraq would be stable, democratic and US-friendly with less than 5000 American soldiers stationed there.

I added "this time" without thinking about it, but they have supposedly done something that's in their job description, and maybe even got it right. The Iraqi war is not one of those things, though.

So as a military historian, strategic/tactical expert you can call the generals idiots not because of exceptional Monday morning quarterbacking techniques, but because you have attended some sort of war college and can point out all of the battlefield mistakes?

You're way out of line calling any war fighters idiots when, without me knowing much about you but guessing that, you haven't a fraction of a clue about what their job entails and what decisions they have to make and have made since the start of this war.

The war we're fighting is like none other they have fought and therefore everything they do is based on what they know from previous experience. Some of that experience is based on somewhat antiquated Cold War tactics that no longer applied to the modern day battlefield. If that makes them idiots then I suggest you, with all of your vast knowledge, should make your way to West Point and use it to improve the situation. Otherwise... well,...

 

[Imagine]

Oh I'm sure they know how to win battles and where to deploy what units with what orders. I don't question that. What I do question is their belief that they could force an entire country to adopt their own culture in a matter of months without some serious bloodshed taking place. That they apparently didn't have a clue about how unstable the region is. Hell, Bush didn't even know there were Shia and Sunni Muslims until it was pointed out to him. Had I been given the plan in advance, I would've laughed and asked if they were joking. It was based on best-case assumptions from start to finish, basically based on the belief that everyone would greet them with flowers and cooperate fully. It wasn't a plan so much as wishful thinking about as far removed from reality as unicorns on the moon.

 

[pathfinder]

Oh I'm sure they know how to win battles and where to deploy what units with what orders. I don't question that. What I do question is their belief that they could force an entire country to adopt their own culture in a matter of months without some serious bloodshed taking place. That they apparently didn't have a clue about how unstable the region is.

I don't know if that is something the generals running the show should have been expected to know or not. I understand what you're saying, and there are certainly enough intelligence agencies that could have given a better assessment of how things would go once we took Saddam and his peeps out of power.

 

[Imagine]

I don't know if that is something the generals running the show should have been expected to know or not. I understand what you're saying, and there are certainly enough intelligence agencies that could have given a better assessment of how things would go once we took Saddam and his peeps out of power.

The generals were apparently expected to know that, considering they were given the task to come up with a plan that included how Iraq would be established as a stable, soveriegn, western democracy. If they were given a task they were not qualified to do, that was the first mistake. Bush & Co. apparently believe it anyway, which would be the second, and they are certainly expected to know.

Regardless of who did the planning, inter-cultural wars have never worked this way, how on Earth could they possibly believe that it would work like a charm now? It's bad enough trying to do it to a unified region, but especially in a region like Iraq, about as stable as a jar of nitroglycerin being juggled by a Parkinson's patient, the only thing keeping the factions from starting a civil war being Saddam? They thought it would take two to three months to stabilize Iraq after the end of official hostilities. 2-3 years was far more likely. Even 2-3 decades wouldn't be a stretch, although it's difficult to speculate that far ahed with so many factors. Take a look at Israel. What is it? Half a century and counting?

 

[pathfinder]

(a) you can't compare a threat of nuclear attack that never came to fruition, which by the way all allies of the west and soviets also went through, to having your cities and friends and family blown to bits or having soldiers on your streets. The US just doesn't know what it is like, otherwise I don't believe the people of the US would be so trigger-happy in supporting wars and invasions, much less illegal ones. Fear and having your land sieged and destroyed are very different things. Fear facilitates pre-emption and illegal wars (read my signature). Having your homeland destroyed and villages and land occupied makes you hate war, hate invasions, and yearn for peace.

I'm not comparing the two... you said nobody in the US has ever had to deal with air raid sirens... I know there's a stark difference between the air raids during WWII and the CMC. Comparing that would be like, oh I don't know... comparing Iraq to Vietnam.

Maybe not in the last few generations but the Revolutionary and Civil Wars weren't exactly painless. And they certainly didn't make people in this country enjoy war. Sure, they were "domestic" but war is war.

As for having their land sieged and all that... they've been dealing with it for how many years before we rolled into town? And we aren't doing it with mal-intent. The fact that they can't get their shit together when the opportunity couldn't be any better is on them.

 

[pathfinder]

Regardless of who did the planning, inter-cultural wars have never worked this way, how on Earth could they possibly believe that it would work like a charm now?

Couldn't tell you. Maybe they figured it would be like picking up where we left off with Desert Storm I. Maybe they thought the Iraqis, who have been living with war for years, would be able to more effectively take up arms and defend themselves given the chance, especially when they have the support of the US.

Maybe thought the "shock and awe" would humble all the bad folks and charge up the good folks. :dunno:

 

[Philbert]

Go visit the rest of the world, and ask the people whose parents or grandparents remember air raid sirens and friends and families blown or shot to bits in their own hometowns. The rest of the world doesn't work like that anymore. We're the aggressors now. It's sad but true. No nation has ever attacked America - Japan attacked some of our pacific islands that are already halfway to Japan, once - the buildings in NY were supposedly hit by rogues, but definitely not by any nation or other. We're not in any damn danger, except from our own leaders imo.

Fox

Once again, you make sweeping statements without any real knowledge of the actual truth...there were, for instance, over 20 US ships sunk in the Gulf of Mexico during WWII by German U-Boats, some right off the southern coast of Florida.
A great majority of our immigrant population from 1945-60, and later, are European and Asian "war refugees'...not to mention the literally millions of veterans who know first hand what it's like to live in war.
The USA is populated by millions of people who know why they came here, and how much they will do to keep the life we have here from destruction. There is not much similarity to the actual population of the USA and your constant blanket generalizations of "Americans".
Otherwise, having shared this much, I am rather uninterested in most of the all "right" or all "left" declarations of other peoples thoughts and intentions this thread has evolved into...a little balance would be quite refreshing.
:2 cents: (worth every penny!)

 

[meesterperfect]

"It seems that you are not going to admit we have a shark problem until it swims up and bites you in the ass." Hooper (Oceanologist)

 

[Imagine]

Doesn't mean declaring war on the ocean is going to solve anything.

 

[meesterperfect]

It's a madhouse!!!! A madhouse!!!! Taylor (astronuat)

 

[Imagine]

Indeed. Unfortunately, most of it is, in fact, not sharks. Sharks are hard to come by, especially for someone who doesn't know what a shark looks like. If anything, having people swim around and look for sharks with no clue how to go about it is going to increase the frequency of shark attacks.

Not to mention that humans are not natural prey for sharks. The vast majority of shark attacks are caused by people provoking them or the shark misunderstanding. For the most part, however, sharks are harmless if left alone.

Edit: And now since you've edited the post, this reply made little sense...

 

[meesterperfect]

I didnt edit anything, just a simple quote was all I wrote and nothing more.

 

[Imagine]

I replied to a post saying something along the lines of "isn't it in the oceans the sharks are?" (paraphrased).

 

[pathfinder]

All true, all valid points, but America has never been bombed, invaded, and the *minority* of Americans that lived in or whose family lived in places that were invaded and bombed, has obviously not left enough of an imprint on the minds of Americans, because far too many people here - not all, did I ever say all, no - but far too many, are far too eager, to jump into military conflicts.

You just can't let go of that one can you.
There are plenty of countries who have been and continue to be bombed and invaded but continue to push into places they're not wanted or hang on to regions that don't want to be part of them. It's been going on for thousands of years and will probably never stop. It seems to be human nature. The fact that America has not been "bombed" (in what I assume is the traditional WWI sense) has nothing to do with its "desire" to going to war. Had it been "bombed or invaded" I seriously doubt it would effect its resolve in protecting itself from direct of potential/foreseeable threats.
Not to mention, if you're referring to WWII and the people who were "bombed and invaded", well most of them are either dead, too young to remember it to the point where it would affect their opinions on the matter, or old enough that their country going to war probably doesn't concern them as much as enjoying the time they have left. So, again, your argument/rebuttal really doesn't hold a lot of weight in the grand scheme of things.

Would you prefer we be like France... bombed into oblivion and now just a nation of backstabbing, gutless, turds? I mean, since we're generalizing America why not keep it real and globalize it.

"It seems that you are not going to admit we have a shark problem until it swims up and bites you in the ass." Hooper (Oceanologist)

!The board at http://board.freeones.com/ says:
You must spread some reputation around before giving it to meesterperfect again.

I'd load you up for that one if I could... instead I'll just have to make that my first sigline for this site. Not only did you sum it all up with absolute simplicity but you used a quote from a classick flick. KUDOS!! :bowdown: :hatsoff:

Now... I'm unsubscribing from this thread. It's making my agent orange ack up. :wave:

Good day to you.
ETA: post 300... how appropriate to end this one with a nice even number.

 

[meesterperfect]

ok imagine, didnt think i posted that, guess i did for like 30 secs. Man you were on it fastttt.

we're never gonna agree on most of this.
But one common ground I think almost everyone shares is hoping for the best.

Thanks Path.....

I think I'll unsubscribe also, for a while.
chao........

 

[Imagine]

If you're asking me to believe that an unconventional tactics used by an invisible enemy can be stopped by conventional warfare, that the US has done nothing to trigger any of this, then no, it's unlikely we're going to agree. If brute force is going to be used to solve this, then there'd better be a lot more of it than there is now. If you haven't read 1984, this would be a good time to do it. That's where you're going if you want security through force. Destroying foreign infra-structure is a waste of time as long as cells can operate on your own soil, using your own infra-structure.

 

[YMIHERE]

Would you prefer we be like France... bombed into oblivion and now just a nation of backstabbing, gutless, turds?

The French have troops in Afghanistan as part of the NATO force fighting the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Many other Europeans counties have troops in Afghanistan despite their opposition to the War in Iraq. Afghanistan is the real central front in the War on Terror. Bush seems to have forgotten the real forces behind 9/11 because he was fixated with Iraq before 9/11 happen. Bush believes Wednesday the same thing he believed Monday regardless of what happen Tuesday.