actually its closer to 43 million people in the USA on food stamps, there are about 100 million households in the USA so that's 43 percent of the country on food stamps and now in 2011 we are gonna see it all start to fall apart, we are gonna see that you can't have this many people getting handouts and living on public housing and mind you that 50 percent of the people that currently vote in the USA don't pay taxes, yup its all gonna come to a head I just hope that people are preparing themselves for what's coming
Former Shell boss predicts $5/gal gas in 2012 in America
- Thread starter Bloodshot Scott
- Start date
once you understand the scope of the municipal debt problem you start to understand that the dominoes are gonna fall very fast
Rey C.
Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Solar? I'd say the main problem is cost. I built this house about 5 years ago and I'm on a ridge where I get lots of sun. I was considering solar until I looked at the cost of solar for water and secondary heating. Even a smallish system topped $50K. That's just not cost effective unless you have money to burn. They're also not that efficient or overly reliable, from what I was able to learn. 10 years and then major maintenance didn't interest me. A heat pump has about the same lifespan (maybe a bit more), but a total system replacement is about 1/10th the cost of a solar system. Just like with alt. fuels, we fell behind on solar research after the 80's and now the Chinese and others are WAY ahead of us.
A wind farm is being proposed for this area too. And the opposition is based on aesthetics as well. With all the pine trees in that area, I don't see why they don't just paint the damn things green and be done with it.
There is a desire on the part of some people. But as with most every other issue, it's just easier for most people to act as sheep and just go with the flow... or worse yet, believe whatever horseshit lies the special interests bribe the politicians to spread. Build a wind farm? Better not! They'll unplug grandma! Plant switchgrass on unused land or the open prairies? Better not! They'll unplug grandma! I've got this study paid for by the Shell/Exxon/BP Institute of Learning that says so!
We should put a bike in every home and tell folk if they want electricity, they best get therselves pedallin!
We should end up alright here, shitloads of natural renewable sources, we've recently banned any more nuclear power stations, and the legislated target for 2025 is to produce 100% of our energy through renewables only.
Ambitious and who knows if it will be achieved, but you don't get if you don't try.
We should end up alright here, shitloads of natural renewable sources, we've recently banned any more nuclear power stations, and the legislated target for 2025 is to produce 100% of our energy through renewables only.
Ambitious and who knows if it will be achieved, but you don't get if you don't try.
Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
Ultimately, this is what I have to concede and what I alluded to in my first post; my points are hindsight for most. It's the people with mobility now that should be taking these things into account, while respective governments should be taking steps to help those without. As you say, during the recession this will take a backseat (assuming it had a seat at all), but it has to be done, eventually. It'll either be done while we still have a cheap energy source or very painfully when we don't.
Heh; it's more of the mentality that we can live wherever, I suppose. Take people living in the deserts of the States- they may be in the same position as yourself. Should they be there? Can the desert really support the population without huge resources from elsewhere? And if not, how much blame should we put to the individual and how much to the governments (which for the US in particular, I'd say a lot for their part in allowing the automobile industry to virtually destroy the train industry many decades ago). Again, the blame to the individual is a hindsight issue; I wouldn't blame people in their thirties, forties, or higher for settling where they are just as I wouldn't blame a smoker decades ago. Now the information's out there and people need to get smart.
So we go back to what I keep bringing up (that people keep ignoring): alternative fuels which are not based on food staples. It's not an either/or proposition. It's not as if we'll some day flip one off and flip another one on. But I've been reading a fair amount about switchgrass as part of cellulosic ethanol production over the past few days and I'm amazed that people aren't waking up to the benefits of pursuing this as ONE of the major options.
[...]
Also, we've focused a lot on people, what and how they drive and with Rattrap's post, even where they live. But no matter what those variables look like, another one is the fact that over-road trucks continue to be diesel powered. Moving that fleet to bio-diesel (over time) would put a big dent in our oil imports.
I'm all for alternative energies, especially the renewable ones but I've heard it said time and time again that with current technology, all alternative energies - combined - don't match the consumption power of oil. So I believe the solution must lie (in tandem with alternative fuels, of course) in reducing our consumption - drastically. Where we live has a lot to do with that. How much we drive, of course, but also what consumer choices we make - buying apples, for example, from the US (which grows plenty. I had an apple tree in my backyard when I grew up. Hell, and a cherry tree, a plum tree, grape vines, and a blackberry bush - they all produced) instead of New Zealand.
That said, I remember reading an article in one of Portland's newspapers a while back about a family in eastern Oregon who fitted their garage with solar panels. I vaguely remember it costing them something like $10k or $16k - but within two months, they were powered completely off the grid, and after that they were actually selling energy back to the grid. It would be a long time before they made back their investment, but they were making it back.
And on solar panels, I read in another paper in Wales an interesting point I'd never thought of: how much heat do you reckon is generated by covering everything in black panels?
Facetious
Moderated
Great report, Pet!
This is exactly what we need to see more of in this country, a bi-fuel option in any vehicle configuration, car, truck . . . whatever. :thumbsup:
Petra
Cult Mother and Simpering Cunt
Before moving to the NL, I lived in Florida. Put these directions into google map. Okeechobee to 42660 US Highway 441 N.
That is 28.7 miles of two lane US highway, hardly ANY shoulder, no bike path, and no sidewalk. Cars and huge semi-trucks zipping along faster than they should.
About 6 months before I moved, one of the therapists I worked with started cycling to work instead of driving. Guess what happened? A car hit him. He almost died. The ONLY thing that saved him was the fact that he was wearing a helmet.
This is what a good majority of America is like. It is NOT like the NL where cyclist are a protected species...even if they're the idiotic assholes who jump out infront of motorists because they know the car will be the one in trouble. It is NOT like the NL where there are cycling paths connecting damn near every city.
It's unfortunate, but this is the reality of the US and that's why I love the NL so much. I know I can go from point a to b without wondering if I'm going to get hit from behind.
Petra
Cult Mother and Simpering Cunt
So far I think the bi-fuel spark is only being sold in the Netherlands. I really hope it's going to catch on. I LOVE it.
It's so sparky.
Facetious
Moderated
So far I think the bi-fuel spark is only being sold in the Netherlands. I really hope it's going to catch on. I LOVE it.
Pic please!
No self service LP I'm guessing . . . :flame:
For the time being, I'm an LP proponent all - the - way!
It's very abundant, it's a bit cleaner burning than gasoline, it has a high energy content (unlike ethanol @20.5 mega joules per / l.) . . . + a few other reasons I can't think of right now. :o
Just Go Sparky!
To put some of the financial considerations into perspective, Scotland estimates that it will need to invest £200billion ($310billion) between now and 2025 to achieve 100% of power generated by green technology.
Given that the USA is 125 times larger than Scotland, that scale means they would need to invest (I think!) £25trillion, or roughly $39trillion. You would also need to consider that Scotland currently produces over 30% in renewables, whereas the USA produces only around 12%.
Not much then eh?
Given that the USA is 125 times larger than Scotland, that scale means they would need to invest (I think!) £25trillion, or roughly $39trillion. You would also need to consider that Scotland currently produces over 30% in renewables, whereas the USA produces only around 12%.
Not much then eh?
Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
"Better the place you live, or move to a better place to live." :thumbsup:
Of course, one must first have the means to move...but I reckon a lot more people do than they think. Not everyone, of course, by a longshot (certainly not to another country). But with a few sacrifices...I'm moving myself next month with virtually no money and no means of transporting my stuff. So, I'll be selling most of it. Mobility gives me more options than 'stuff'.
You said you're moving yourself. While that may not always be easy it either it is certainly easier to move yourself (if that's the extent of what you mean) than to move families around on whims.
What may be easily practical for some surely isn't for others (even if logical).
Rey C.
Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Oh, I fully agree that the consumption decision is probably the biggest factor. But with real wages pretty much just marching in place (for the middle class) for the past decade plus, consumers have been forced to make many of their decisions based on price rather than making values/moral based decisions. So much of the middle class is just concerned with survival at this point. But if those apples from Washington are cheaper than the ones from New Zealand, or the shrimp caught off the Gulf coast are cheaper than the (antibiotic filled) ones from Asia, hopefully they would get the nod.
On solar, the family that was able to get a (full?) system for $10K-$16K, there must be some special circumstances there. Either dad was an engineer who crafted his own system or the system was bought from a guy named Vinny, after it "fell off a truck".
Here's a link to a pretty neat little calculator, very similar to the one I used when I priced a system for my house. This one put me at $65K, with a net of $45K after incentives and credits. And this is only for a 50% offset, so I wouldn't be able to sell anything back to the power company. A system that would allow me a 100% offset (and the possibility of selling the excess back to the power company) would be over $131K, with a net of about $92K after incentives and credits. Wow! :eek: I was willing to go as high as $25-$30K. But in case I had to sell the house, I had to be sure that I could recapture at least a decent portion of my investment. So even though I'm mechanically handy (I like to believe), anything approaching $90 grand (even with me chipping in) for a 100% offset is just cost prohibitive. But the Chinese are working on that problem too... even if we're too slow-handed to get it done.
Solar Calculator
But I fully agree with you that in order to actually make a real difference, we'll need to modify our consumption habits, as well as our source options. IMO, we're only taking baby steps on both counts. I would support more targeted tax credits for R&D in this area. But the "drill baby, drill" crowd isn't intellectually capable of seeing alternative options as anything other than the day dreams of long-haired hippy types, who drive Priuses and order decaf double lattes - and let's be honest, they're gaining in numbers and strength these days. I mean, thinking is hard! Why do that?! Being a head-nodding lemming is much less tiring. You betcha! *wink* With that said, I drive a gas sucking Jaguar, prefer a strong, artery clogging espresso and the only sport I still follow involves race cars that do well to get 2 mpg. But even I realize that the path we're on is not sustainable. While I agree that we do need to drill more domestically, that's the ONLY answer that those people have. At best, we can maybe get to domestic production of 10 million barrels of oil a day, of the 20 million that we currently use. I think what many of us are in agreement on is that the 20 million per day requirement needs to come down.
So yes, bringing more alternative sources online AND modifying consumption habits is the way to do that. :thumbsup: But I don't think the average American will start to really :flame: until gas hits $5-$6 per gallon.
well the good news is once the dollar finally crashes and all monetary systems go back to zero, the price of fuel might reset when the new Bancor global currency is introduced but probably not
Rey C.
Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Well, while that is a possibility, I've lived most of my life based on probabilities. And right now, I'd say the probability of gold suffering a major pullback in price, if this worst case scenario doesn't pan out, is greater than the worst case scenario panning out. Central banks around the world are so inter-linked these days that the prospect of me having to select my meat "off the hoof" in the woods, instead of paying with a credit card at Kroger, isn't that great, IMO.
But if it goes down like that, so what? :dunno: As long as it doesn't take me as many shots as it did S@rah P@lin to bring down one little petting zoo deer, I figure I've got enough ammo for every rifle I've got to last me...oh, about 100 years, at 2 shots/deer and about six deer/year. And if a pack of starving fashion models wants to join my harem and I need more deer, I'd just start hunting from a tree stand with the pistols to take more deer per month. And while I'm out hunting, I expect those girls to be tending to the garden... wearing cut-off jean shorts and tube tops. See, I've got a plan too! Even if I never get to use it and it may not be a good one... I've still got a plan. :elaugh:
Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
I hadn't quite meant it like that, but it's accurate. This is all true, which is what I mean by hindsight and the families that made their decisions when the idea of expensive gas was decades away. That responsibility was on the local and national governments for city and transportation planning. It doesn't much matter who was responsible, though, as we all get to deal with the problem now.
Governments do play a big role in the pricing of locally produced and imported things, to be sure - consumers do have more power than they exercise, though. To use apples as an example again: in ASDA, often times they'll have a variety of apples that are virtually the same price (give or take a few pence, really). Option A will be from New Zealand. B, Chile. C - finally - England. Or even France, which is certainly a lot closer than the first two options which are almost quite literally the opposite side of the world (New Zealand is directly opposite Spain, but it's close enough).
True, all those delicious Pink Ladies are coming from South Africa, but frankly, Galas are just as tasty and grow much closer to home.
I can't remember the exact price (the article was two, maybe three years ago), but I'm pretty sure it was around there - one of the reasons it stuck with me was that the price wasn't that high - $50k and higher is much higher. There may have very well been extenuating circumstances; I just looked for the article but I didn't have any luck. I know Oregon in general is pretty keen on the green energy, but I couldn't give any specifics.On solar, the family that was able to get a (full?) system for $10K-$16K, there must be some special circumstances there. Either dad was an engineer who crafted his own system or the system was bought from a guy named Vinny, after it "fell off a truck".
PlasmaTwa2
The Second-Hottest Man in my Mother's Basement
The problem 'trap is there is no problem per se with supply at this point. The other 'problem' if you want to look at it that way is the US is a country veritably built around the automobile and it's manufacturing. Hence there has always been some balance the US has had to attempt to strike when it comes to the automobile versus public transportation, etc. So it's not as simplistic as a lack of planning as we want to sell more and more cars...everywhere.
So we build more roads, bridges, tunnels, wider freeways, move our communities further and further apart, etc., etc. and the effect is we drive more. Our public transportation systems are designed more to generate revenue and relieve congestion than provide a service and/or improve conservation.
People in other countries who constantly deride Americans based on some tv or movie perception really don't understand some of the fundamental differences in our economies (for one) which in some cases drive the end result they see.
While most developed countries do refine their own gasoline to some degree (mainly because exporters don't want to waste time refining it to some standard for you too), when it comes to pricing in those countries you have look at where their crude product comes from.
I don't know how the EU works as a oil cartel. But the entire EU cartel produces about 2.5 million bbls per day. Germany alone consumes 2.5 million bbls per day.
The US produces nearly have of what it consumes and the bulk of the other half still comes from the North American continent.
So looking to other countries as a model for how the US should be doing things misses allot of gory details as to why we're not. All that said, it should be irrelevant (at this point) anyway since the pricing is most likely not relating to actual demand or shortages. As many oil exporting cartels and countries increase and decrease supplies as needed. So goes with refining as well.