Who decides what is right and what is wrong?
What's wrong with rape and murder? Animals do it all the time. :dunno:
That's what we are, right............just animals?
Do you fear death?
- Thread starter Bearded_Menace
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Who decides what is right and what is wrong?
What's wrong with rape and murder? Animals do it all the time. :dunno:
That's what we are, right............just animals?
i'm with you on this...that and dying without feeling like i accomplished what i wanted to in life
that is a good line...
I both hear and read about people with this sentiment and for the life of me I don't understand it.
What's the big deal with dying alone ? :dunno:
Being loved and having somebody to love is more important to some people than either life or death itself. To some it might very well be one of the meanings of life and the essence of why we are put here to "live" in the first place. It might not necessarily have to be ones family, but to go through life without those feelings and never caring for other people would be a pretty hollow one.
Who decides? Society does. This is what differs us from the animals, as higher primates we are conscious, societal creatures. We can see that the murder of one of our group by another is wrong because it lowers the ratio we have to perform out primary function, which is to pass on our genes. The good of the group is one of the most important thing we have acquired throughout the evolution of us as societal creatures, because it is that group and by group I mean the species that allows for the protection and propagation of the species.
So hopefully you can see how fallacious it is to compare us to just any other species because while we are still animals we have that special ability to be conscious of our surroundings and of the fact that we know what death is and what it can do separates us from that of any other species.
That's what we are, right............just animals?
Indeed we are.
But you say that so derisively, why?
I don't fear death as such because i know its coming, everybody knows this. The only thing i fear is HOW. I don't want to be murdered / tragic accident etc, and i guess no-one wants that. Maybe when im nearing the end the fear of death itself will increase tremendously, but as of now, no.
I knew you would go the society route.
So had you been an Aztec you would have gladly sacrificed people to the gods? Had you been German during the WWII era, you would have gladly done whatever despicable act the Nazis told you to just because they were considered acceptable?
I believe humans are born with an inner understanding of right from wrong (or a "soul" if you will), whether or not they want to admit it. There are many times in my life that I wanted to do something wrong but knew that I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I went through with it. That has nothing to do with society. That has to do with "self."
Good lord, talk about beating a dead horse.
Alright lets get back into it. I go down the society route because there is significant research to suggest that this is the case. Check out some of the work that E.O. Wilson is doing for example in the field of sociobiology and look up Kin Selection and the work of W.D. Hamilton. If you read what they have to say on the subject of evolutionary altruism it's pretty interesting stuff and it does have a lot of support. But you giving me indications of evolution scepticism, leads me to the conclusion that you won't read what they have to say or if you do you won't be reading with an open mind.
Oh 'morality' never leave us again.....
I find it funny that you give examples of how the collective can do abhorrent things such as sacrificing people in order to appease their gods or to participate in the various acts that the Nazi's participated in. But then you go onto say that human beings have it ingrained into them that there is a significant right and wrong and that there are lines you do not cross etc. The obvious question here is where where the Aztec's or the Nazi's "souls" during these times (please don't say they were under the influence of the Devil I would really like a more comprehensive answer than that). Did these people lose there sense of right and wrong? At those times did they believe that they could do anything and it was perfectly acceptable to do so? No of course not, they had their own sense of morality just as much as you or I have the only difference being that they had been socially conditioned to recognise that what they were doing was the correct thing to do. Their inner "soul" as you call it was in perfect harmony for the most part with what they were doing. A few might have seen the error of their ways but the vast majority of those involved knew and accepted with clear heads that what they were doing was right, or at least acceptable because the later goal would be accomplish and they would live in harmony once it was done. Do you see the pattern here?
Why is this the case? It is because there is no objective moral framework from which all humans hold themselves to. What we see as being right or wrong is completely different from those that lived at other times throughout the lifetime of our species. It changes from generation to generation. With the continued level of murder, genocide, war etc that plagues many nations throughout are world are a testament to that. The will be times when there are those that see it as perfectly acceptable to murder one or indeed thousands of people and there will be those willing to go along for the ride. Are these people devils? No, they're just as human as you or I, but it is the nature of the society in which they live and how they were raised within it that allows them to carry out these sorts of actions.
A quick thought experiment - I know you're a religious guy, so I ask you: if God were to finally show himself to the world and decree that all men were to kill their first born to appease him would you do it? You Might sat that God would never do that (although he has in the past if we're to believe the gospel), but just humour me for a second. Would your morals go out of the window to appease your creator in the way that you believe the Aztec's did. I mean all of our morals are given to us by God right? If he sees it right for you to murder your children as a gift for him in all of his divine wisdom and grace you would have to do it wouldn't you? Or would there be that voice inside of you that says 'no'. Lets not forget this is you creator giving you an order, if you don't you'll go to hell. So what do you say to him?
I fear death terribly. There is so much I still have to/want to do in this world and I think I wouldn't fear it as much if I knew there was some kind of afterlife with consciousness. I am somewhat religious but I have my doubts about a lot of it so to come to terms that when we die, we just "tune out" for good, so to speak. Yeah, not ready for that yet.
So I fear death and I love life too darn much. Life is amazing sometimes.
Thanks.
So I fear death and I love life too darn much. Life is amazing sometimes.
Thanks.
I will start reading up on them today.
I don't believe they had clear heads, not for a second.
Their souls were completely intact and no, they weren't influenced by the devil.....some of them were just down right evil. Others were afraid of how they would be punished if they didn't do what they were told. I'm not disagreeing with that. What I'm saying is that people know right from wrong, some just choose not to care. Others might do what's wrong because they are told to, but regret it later. An atheist friend of mine told me once that everybody is just "grey", and that there is no "black" and "white" or "good" and "bad." I don't buy into that. Some people are more good and some people are more bad. I'll let you try to decide for yourself what category Hitler fell under.
What you're saying is that if a majority of society says something is right, then it is so. How can that be? If society overwhelmingly says that some guy is going to make a great leader (which happened with Obama, even my mom voted for him and she's conservative) then why haven't I felt the desire to vote for any of these guys? I'll tell you why. I know it's the wrong thing to do. I have yet to vote in any American Presidential Election because I have seen through our last few Presidents.
So far society told me I should vote for Bush....twice. :1orglaugh
Then society said Obama is going to "change" things. :rofl:
That's just one example.
I could go on all day about things I don't agree with in society.
If I knew without a shadow of a doubt that it was God, then yes. But, the Bible warns of the antichrist. If I had doubt that it was really God, then no. It depends on the situation.
But, you didn't answer my question. If you were a German, and Hitler ordered you to perform some kind of bizarre experiment on a Jew which would require you to torture them and eventually kill them....would you have done it, or would you have faced your punishment?
