Re: Cheating...Is It Forgivable? Doesn't matter, it's not the point ...
When you have kids, it gets more complicated, of course. If the couple is not having sex, then if sex is important to one, there has to be an outlet. Fidelity can be a twist on words. After all, men desire their partners and, despite common assumption, aren't born to cheat, and don't cheat any more than women. The statistics on this have been repeatedly shown to be related to income, and female infidelity have risen with that reality (similar from the '80s on-ward).
Adults must talk. They must work through issues. Relationships are about compromises. If sex is important to one partner, then it's important. It's just as important as another partner wanting to feel special. There are no "absolutes" on this, it's all relative. Partners have to compromise.
Because relationships are not about "absolute values," but about two people finding a compatible set of values. To be a partner, you must accept someone else's views as your own, and it can be a challenge to find an union of values that work. That's even more of a challenge when someone's values change, or they weren't honest before.
Marriage is an agreement, but that doesn't mean when the agreement changes you have to accept. It happens.
Partners who act differently before marriage and after are 100% of the problem in a relationship. Most specifically, my wife will rip a woman a new one -- even a friend of hers -- when they complain about their husband wanting something, and it was something she gave him before marriage, but stopped after marriage.
Women are just setting themselves up for failure.
Men, we have our issues as well. Taking our wives for granted after we marry them is just as much of an issue. Many times it's very important to the woman that they feel special, and if you have changed how much you think of her after you marry her, then don't expect her to want to make love as much.
I don't know what is good. But I do know what is bad.
Telling others about your martial issues, especially family and those who know you in reality (let alone someone you fancy of the opposite sex) never works. Couples, even couples that split, keep their issues to themselves or a trusted third party they both agree to engage. One-way, one-sided, complaints and other rants never help the relationship, and issues and concerns should only be confided into parties both trust, and with all views presented.
The key is to find a compromise, or agree that one cannot be found. Ignoring issues and sharing them with others never works. And drowning them out with conflict-based or post-anger, make-up sex guarantees failure. If there is one lesson I wish I could teach kids and young adults, it's that not only does conflict-based sex, but post make-up sex, never works. So many adults harp on avoiding pre-marital sex. Some even say this is how they force themselves to work out problems. In reality, it has nothing to do with allowing/denying pre-marital sex, but forcing couples to work out differences and come to compromises ... instead of just jumping in the sack to resolve them.
Sexual responsibility is a broad consideration, one most adults and -- even worse -- most adults poorly pass down to their kids. Most often its just a horrible re-enforcement of absolute values that have nothing to do with the real problems. And that's just sad.
It may be the choice of friends I have, but the majority of my colleagues have had their wives cheat on them, not vice-versa. What's worse is that after the divorce, these women have the balls to bitch about who my friends are sleeping with. I think it's the fact that many of my friends are hurt for 18+ months, but finally "move on."
I am regularly finding the 18 month (1.5 year) "time factor" to be common to many things. Whether it's the sexual drive of a woman dropping after 18 months with the same man or a man being attached to a woman and can think of no other (such as post break-up), it seems to be common. It could also explain both the divorce rates within the first three years (within the double of 18 months) as well as the fact that most people, at least Americans, change jobs within the same period (often starting to despise roles after 18 months).
And if you cannot come up with any answers, then you should ask her why. You need to talk it through with her. You need to tell her you need your sexual gratification and if she won't provide it, then what can you be allowed to do to have it.
In all cases, talking is the best resolution, even if it results in a split. And my wife and I agree, telling each other that we want to have another than each other before it happens is what is not best, but what is required. To do anything less is to insult the trust of the relationship, even if the relationship would end as a result of the honesty. It's the responsible, considerate thing to do.
Forgiveness doesn't matter.
But if there is one constant in the US, statically speaking, we are immature and love to sexually gossip about others. We do it to make ourselves feel better. Instead of looking at our own lives, we like to look at others instead. That's what drives a lot of people, especially in the easily offended and judgemental US.
Side Tangent:
For those that have noted me on the board over the years, I have a tendency to piss many people off. However, I invite anyone to look at my history, and note the overwhelming majority of times where I pissed someone off, it was because they were already judging others. I have started to avoid it over the last few years, but sometimes I feel really strongly about something to billow out my opinions.
In most cases, I'm actually not disagreeing with someone, but only disagreeing with their logic, or asking them to reflect within. The few cases where I openly disagree with someone, it's often physics or engineering at work, and should not be disputed unless someone has the background (popular opinion doesn't override physical reality, especially since less than 1% have the background to understand, so I will receive little support). Although I have to admit that my micro/macro-economic views are far more capitalist rather than socialist, so those are never going to be popular here, and macroeconomic views are always subjective (microeconomic views are more of an exact science though, especially when it comes to realities of both consumer choice and impact of income taxes, especially on small business owners).
It's the same "insanity" that drives my relationship views. Self-responsibility, instead of excuses of actions and pointing to others and judging them, is the big difference. I more recently call this the "Paris Hilton syndrome." It's not what Paris Hilton does, it's what people use to excuse their views on all sorts of things, not realizing that the supermajority of successful people are self-made, very frugal and very responsible.
I wouldn't say "inviting" but it's extremely unhealthy for the relationship. If the couple can't work-it-out, then it's a real problem if sex is important to at least one partner. Sometimes people change and they should split.
When you have kids, it gets more complicated, of course. If the couple is not having sex, then if sex is important to one, there has to be an outlet. Fidelity can be a twist on words. After all, men desire their partners and, despite common assumption, aren't born to cheat, and don't cheat any more than women. The statistics on this have been repeatedly shown to be related to income, and female infidelity have risen with that reality (similar from the '80s on-ward).
Adults must talk. They must work through issues. Relationships are about compromises. If sex is important to one partner, then it's important. It's just as important as another partner wanting to feel special. There are no "absolutes" on this, it's all relative. Partners have to compromise.
Because relationships are not about "absolute values," but about two people finding a compatible set of values. To be a partner, you must accept someone else's views as your own, and it can be a challenge to find an union of values that work. That's even more of a challenge when someone's values change, or they weren't honest before.
Marriage is an agreement, but that doesn't mean when the agreement changes you have to accept. It happens.
If there is one thing my wife and I agree on the most, it is this ...
Partners who act differently before marriage and after are 100% of the problem in a relationship. Most specifically, my wife will rip a woman a new one -- even a friend of hers -- when they complain about their husband wanting something, and it was something she gave him before marriage, but stopped after marriage.
Women are just setting themselves up for failure.
Men, we have our issues as well. Taking our wives for granted after we marry them is just as much of an issue. Many times it's very important to the woman that they feel special, and if you have changed how much you think of her after you marry her, then don't expect her to want to make love as much.
I don't know what is good. But I do know what is bad.
Telling others about your martial issues, especially family and those who know you in reality (let alone someone you fancy of the opposite sex) never works. Couples, even couples that split, keep their issues to themselves or a trusted third party they both agree to engage. One-way, one-sided, complaints and other rants never help the relationship, and issues and concerns should only be confided into parties both trust, and with all views presented.
The key is to find a compromise, or agree that one cannot be found. Ignoring issues and sharing them with others never works. And drowning them out with conflict-based or post-anger, make-up sex guarantees failure. If there is one lesson I wish I could teach kids and young adults, it's that not only does conflict-based sex, but post make-up sex, never works. So many adults harp on avoiding pre-marital sex. Some even say this is how they force themselves to work out problems. In reality, it has nothing to do with allowing/denying pre-marital sex, but forcing couples to work out differences and come to compromises ... instead of just jumping in the sack to resolve them.
Sexual responsibility is a broad consideration, one most adults and -- even worse -- most adults poorly pass down to their kids. Most often its just a horrible re-enforcement of absolute values that have nothing to do with the real problems. And that's just sad.
Yep, it's a reality in many states.
It may be the choice of friends I have, but the majority of my colleagues have had their wives cheat on them, not vice-versa. What's worse is that after the divorce, these women have the balls to bitch about who my friends are sleeping with. I think it's the fact that many of my friends are hurt for 18+ months, but finally "move on."
I am regularly finding the 18 month (1.5 year) "time factor" to be common to many things. Whether it's the sexual drive of a woman dropping after 18 months with the same man or a man being attached to a woman and can think of no other (such as post break-up), it seems to be common. It could also explain both the divorce rates within the first three years (within the double of 18 months) as well as the fact that most people, at least Americans, change jobs within the same period (often starting to despise roles after 18 months).
I don't think the "cheating" is the event. I think "cheating" is an attitude. If you're thinking of having other women, then you have to ask yourself why. If it's because she's not making love to you, then ask yourself why.
And if you cannot come up with any answers, then you should ask her why. You need to talk it through with her. You need to tell her you need your sexual gratification and if she won't provide it, then what can you be allowed to do to have it.
In all cases, talking is the best resolution, even if it results in a split. And my wife and I agree, telling each other that we want to have another than each other before it happens is what is not best, but what is required. To do anything less is to insult the trust of the relationship, even if the relationship would end as a result of the honesty. It's the responsible, considerate thing to do.
Forgiveness doesn't matter.
I think people shouldn't judge others at all. They don't have the full story at times.
But if there is one constant in the US, statically speaking, we are immature and love to sexually gossip about others. We do it to make ourselves feel better. Instead of looking at our own lives, we like to look at others instead. That's what drives a lot of people, especially in the easily offended and judgemental US.
Side Tangent:
For those that have noted me on the board over the years, I have a tendency to piss many people off. However, I invite anyone to look at my history, and note the overwhelming majority of times where I pissed someone off, it was because they were already judging others. I have started to avoid it over the last few years, but sometimes I feel really strongly about something to billow out my opinions.
In most cases, I'm actually not disagreeing with someone, but only disagreeing with their logic, or asking them to reflect within. The few cases where I openly disagree with someone, it's often physics or engineering at work, and should not be disputed unless someone has the background (popular opinion doesn't override physical reality, especially since less than 1% have the background to understand, so I will receive little support). Although I have to admit that my micro/macro-economic views are far more capitalist rather than socialist, so those are never going to be popular here, and macroeconomic views are always subjective (microeconomic views are more of an exact science though, especially when it comes to realities of both consumer choice and impact of income taxes, especially on small business owners).
It's the same "insanity" that drives my relationship views. Self-responsibility, instead of excuses of actions and pointing to others and judging them, is the big difference. I more recently call this the "Paris Hilton syndrome." It's not what Paris Hilton does, it's what people use to excuse their views on all sorts of things, not realizing that the supermajority of successful people are self-made, very frugal and very responsible.
