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Bin Laden Statue

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
An absurd and deliberately overstated sarcastic suggestion designed to counter the equally ridiculous arguments by those on the other side of the issue that we should correspondingly tear down statues of Washington, Jefferson etc, bulldoze civil war battlefields or put Fred Sanford on the $20 bill. Honestly, I fail to understand why so many seem to have trouble making the distinction on this issue quite frankly and I say this as someone whose ancestors were both slave owners and fought for the confederacy so if there's anyone who should have their panties twisted about this in defense of supposedly protecting "southern heritage", it's someone like me.
 
FDR put 120,000 japanese americans into concentration camps. That's a shitload of public schools that need to be renamed not to mention our currency changed.

Truman nuked innocent civilians in 2 major cities, a war crime that no other leader in the history of mankind has committed. Guy has a couple schools in his name too.
Why not put up a statue of him right next to the atomic dome in Hiroshima? They could even fund it from the payments the Japanese government makes to the US for their Military bases.
 

meesterperfect

Hiliary 2020
We were taught Japan was never going to surrender and they would fight to the last man (or at least until the finale of Breaking Bad in 2013).
But I've heard that they were trying to surrender but they wanted assurance that the Emporer was not to be harmed. Then they got nuked.
I don't know what to believe but at this point in my life my mind tells me to believe nothing that comes from the US GOV post 1915'ish.
Either way, dropping those kinds of bombs on civilians is pretty sickening and I don't believe it was anywhwere close to necessary.
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Truman nuked innocent civilians in 2 major cities, a war crime that no other leader in the history of mankind has committed. Guy has a couple schools in his name too.
Why not put up a statue of him right next to the atomic dome in Hiroshima? They could even fund it from the payments the Japanese government makes to the US for their Military bases.

A ridiculous analogy to the OP that isn't even worthy of debate.

We were taught Japan was never going to surrender and they would fight to the last man (or at least until the finale of Breaking Bad in 2013).
But I've heard that they were trying to surrender but they wanted assurance that the Emporer was not to be harmed. Then they got nuked.
I don't know what to believe but at this point in my life my mind tells me to believe nothing that comes from the US GOV post 1915'ish.
Either way, dropping those kinds of bombs on civilians is pretty sickening and I don't believe it was anywhwere close to necessary.

I totally agree that the very idea of dropping atomic bombs on anyone for any reason is repulsive in the extreme. However, attempts at revisionist historical thinking without offering any type of alternative solution to the problem that Japan presented in World War II are probably better left unsaid.

This subject has been debated many times on this forum. The US would have most definitely accepted an unconditional surrender by the Japanese and, considering their incredibly hopeless military and logistical situation, that's exactly what they should have done. At the point in time the bombs were dropped there was no indication that such a surrender was imminent. American troops invading Saipan had just witnessed the mass suicides of many of the island's citizens (women grabbing their children and jumping from cliffs rather than risk capture at the hands of the Americans) and a banzai charge to the death of 4,000 Japanese soldiers. Faced with the choice of either launching Operation Downfall or dropping the bombs, Truman decided to end the war as quickly as possible and with the least possible loss of life in the process. Hundreds of thousands of American troops and Japanese troops and civilians would unquestionably have been killed in a seaborne invasion of the Japanese islands and the Bushido code would have prevailed to the bitter end (and it would have indeed been very bitter). Truman was a generally overrated president in almost every regard save for his gutsy decision to drop the bombs in August of 1945. As horrific and graphic as the results of the bombs being dropped had been, they most definitely served their purpose by drawing the war to a swift and decisive close and, when viewed from a strictly tactical viewpoint, inflicting minimal casualties in the process.

If anyone has a reasonable alternative strategy to present that would have resulted in the same type of conclusion to the war rather than simply making one-sided moral judgements about the decision to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki I am all ears.
 
But I've heard that they were trying to surrender but they wanted assurance that the Emporer was not to be harmed. Then they got nuked.
This is true. All diplomatic negotiations pointed to this, and even Tojo himself was willing to accept it, which is why he took 100% of the blame at the Tokyo trials and relived the Emperor of any responsibility.
The US/Truman also knew this, which is why they insisted "unconditional surrender or nothing". As General Groves was quoted "You don't spend 2 billion dollars without anything to show to the taxpayers"; they needed Japan to stay in the war until they dropped the bombs both the justify the cost and also keep Stalin in check.
 
If anyone has a reasonable alternative strategy to present that would have resulted in the same type of conclusion to the war rather than simply making one-sided moral judgements about the decision to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki I am all ears.
Simple: Offer the Potsdam declaration with the clause that the Japanese wanted: that the Emperor would be protected. They ended up doing this anyways.
If you wanted to sweeten the deal, you could also have provided a demonstration of the bomb in a non-populated area (like at sea) along with the revised Potsdam declaration. The Japanese are told they can keep the Emperor, and see the bomb they will face if they don't accept. No "mass casualties on both sides" Done deal.
 

Supafly

Retired Mod
Bronze Member
Don't be so backwards! I want to see his family back in Formula 1 sponsorship - the sport of gentlemen

williamsfw07qwsyb.jpg


This is real history.
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Do elaborate. I thought it was pretty apt.

Glad to. As it applies to a comparison to the bin Laden suggestion which was meant to be a deliberate exaggeration of the popular right-wing inference that confederate monuments are worthy of preservation in public venues in order that they might be celebrated in the United States of America....yes, in that specific context I think it is a ridiculous analogy. Kindly tell me how you think it is appropriate and I'll reconsider.

Simple: Offer the Potsdam declaration with the clause that the Japanese wanted: that the Emperor would be protected. They ended up doing this anyways.
If you wanted to sweeten the deal, you could also have provided a demonstration of the bomb in a non-populated area (like at sea) along with the revised Potsdam declaration. The Japanese are told they can keep the Emperor, and see the bomb they will face if they don't accept. No "mass casualties on both sides" Done deal.

OK. Your suggestion is totally legitimate in theory but was rightfully rejected in practice for very specific reasons. If one considers the circumstances at the time and framed against those of the recent past (if you want a reference to the many atrocities that the Japanese committed during the war, I'd be happy to provide them), to have responded in such an acquiescent and pacifist manner would have failed to deliver a very brutal but also very necessary message not only to the government of Japan but, more specifically as it applied to future geopolitical concerns, the Soviet government as well. Even though we ultimately allowed Japan to keep their emperor as they desired, we made it clear to them that the decision to do so was absolutely and completely ours, not theirs. We had also made it clear to the Japanese government via back-channels that nothing short of unconditional surrender was acceptable to us. They refused the offer even though their situation was completely hopeless from a military standpoint. They knew they faced certain annihilation if they continued the conflict and yet they persisted. The responsibility for what followed was therefore theirs in every respect. It must be remembered that they were the ones who attacked us and started the war so the responsibility for the ramifications on their end rested completely with them. I will freely concede that using the bombs was unquestionably a measure of absolute extremity but, unfortunately but necessarily for them, the Japanese were the media by which the message to never again attempt to fuck with the United States was delivered to the entire world. There was no reason to "sweeten the deal". On the contrary, the more bitter the lesson being taught, the better (and I am not a war hawk at all! :banger:).

The question of morality, if that forms the basis of your argument, is not being debated. I simply maintain that the decision was the right one as it pertained to the safety, security and overall well-being of the United States...literally one where the ends justified the means. Hence, that is the reason that commemorations to Truman (or Tibbets or Oppenheimer or Einstein for that matter) in public places in the United States are not only completely appropriate but most certainly would stand in stark contrast to those of figures like Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis, not to mention the tongue-in-cheek reference to Osama bin Laden in the OP.

I look forward to any response....I enjoy this type of discussion very much. :thumbsup:
 

Supafly

Retired Mod
Bronze Member
So how should a Bin Laden statue, a Hitler statue exactly look like? Like all the classic statues we see in so many parks, in front of state houses, etc.? An exact likeness, striking a big pose? Is that your idea?

And what would such a statue exactly inspire in watchers? Other than being a fantastic opportunity for fans to have a cumulating poin for their hate-filled minds?

You just don't think this shit through, mate. You have to think about what this is for, and how this can be transformed in bronze, or rock, or whatever
 
Glad to. As it applies to a comparison to the bin Laden suggestion which was meant to be a deliberate exaggeration of the popular right-wing inference that confederate monuments are worthy of preservation in public venues in order that they might be celebrated in the United States of America....yes, in that specific context I think it is a ridiculous analogy. Kindly tell me how you think it is appropriate and I'll reconsider.



OK. Your suggestion is totally legitimate in theory but was rightfully rejected in practice for very specific reasons. If one considers the circumstances at the time and framed against those of the recent past (if you want a reference to the many atrocities that the Japanese committed during the war, I'd be happy to provide them), to have responded in such an acquiescent and pacifist manner would have failed to deliver a very brutal but also very necessary message not only to the government of Japan but, more specifically as it applied to future geopolitical concerns, the Soviet government as well. Even though we ultimately allowed Japan to keep their emperor as they desired, we made it clear to them that the decision to do so was absolutely and completely ours, not theirs. We had also made it clear to the Japanese government via back-channels that nothing short of unconditional surrender was acceptable to us. They refused the offer even though their situation was completely hopeless from a military standpoint. They knew they faced certain annihilation if they continued the conflict and yet they persisted. The responsibility for what followed was therefore theirs in every respect. It must be remembered that they were the ones who attacked us and started the war so the responsibility for the ramifications on their end rested completely with them. I will freely concede that using the bombs was unquestionably a measure of absolute extremity but, unfortunately but necessarily for them, the Japanese were the media by which the message to never again attempt to fuck with the United States was delivered to the entire world. There was no reason to "sweeten the deal". On the contrary, the more bitter the lesson being taught, the better (and I am not a war hawk at all! :banger:).

The question of morality, if that forms the basis of your argument, is not being debated. I simply maintain that the decision was the right one as it pertained to the safety, security and overall well-being of the United States...literally one where the ends justified the means. Hence, that is the reason that commemorations to Truman (or Tibbets or Oppenheimer or Einstein for that matter) in public places in the United States are not only completely appropriate but most certainly would stand in stark contrast to those of figures like Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis, not to mention the tongue-in-cheek reference to Osama bin Laden in the OP.

I look forward to any response....I enjoy this type of discussion very much. :thumbsup:

yeah fuck all that.

Japan was in no position to negotiate a damn thing after what they did. Unconditional surrender or else.

Look at Japan now. I fucking lived it firsthand. America's benevolence.

Imagine if the Soviet Union had conquered them. They should be on their knees thanking God that we did first.
 
So how should a Bin Laden statue, a Hitler statue exactly look like? Like all the classic statues we see in so many parks, in front of state houses, etc.? An exact likeness, striking a big pose? Is that your idea?

And what would such a statue exactly inspire in watchers? Other than being a fantastic opportunity for fans to have a cumulating poin for their hate-filled minds?

You just don't think this shit through, mate. You have to think about what this is for, and how this can be transformed in bronze, or rock, or whatever

For the Bin Laden statue at the 9/11 memorial, I'm thinking something similar to the Christ the Redeemer statue in Rio. I want this to be the most beautiful statue ever made
 

Supafly

Retired Mod
Bronze Member
I advise to go Futurama and make that a holographic, moving statue. Displaying him rubbing his hands, plotting plans on a map of the USA, and of course, getting mowed down by SEAL Team Six
 
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