Are you worried about the economy?

[titsrock]

Why does the Republican Party have no problem spending $700billion on warmongering without any exit strategy or "end plan" yet when it comes time to spend tax payer money on CORPORATIONS and INFRASTRUCTURE projects which directly affect Americans...we get the full-throated Tax-payer R A G E out of them.....

$15billion to keep the U.S. TEMPORARILY out of depression over the Holidays vs $700billion in Iraq/Afghanistan...hmmm. Is there even a debate here?

 

[LBP 76]

Sorry man, free market did not solely cause this mess. Government manipulation started this.
This mess is the result of the government and the Fed and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac deliberately and artificially raising housing prices by encouraging American's to go more into debt then they ever have been. Remember a few months ago when Greenspan said 'OOPS'?
The government started it, the banks ran with it and the masses fueled it.
If the government had said 'no' to big debts, not slashed interest rates too low for too long and reeled in Freddie and Fannie years ago (who yesterday admitted that they deliberately granted and/or insured risky mortgages); this would have been a minor recession.
And now the solution to a recession caused by too much accumulated debt and artificially high house prices is much more accumulated debt to keep the house prices artificially high?
How does more debt solve the problem of too much debt?

 

[titsrock]

You have placed Gov't in the wrong part of the "equation." Gov't is at the END, not the beginning. Gov't was moved to the end of the line by all that deregulation.

The masses fueled it>>The Banks ran with it>>Fannie and Freddie assisted

 

[LBP 76]

You have placed Gov't in the wrong part of the "equation." Gov't is at the END, not the beginning. Gov't was moved to the end of the line by all that deregulation.

The masses fueled it>>The Banks ran with it>>Fannie and Freddie assisted

Fannie and Freddie handled or insured over 1/2 the mortgages. And the Fed sets the rates. Both answer to the government. In addition, the Bush and Clinton administration's took steps to make home ownership easier.
The masses can't get the loans without the banks. And the banks can't give the loans if the government tightens the money supply. But if the government keeps rates low and lowers home ownership requirements then that allows the banks to write more mortgages and that allows them to grant more mortgages.


And I'll ask you again, with respect; how do you get out of too much debt by getting into more debt?
It will get you through the day or even the month. But eventually it just makes a bad situation worse.

 

[titsrock]

I think the masses have been played. Interest rate cuts were in response to the Internet Stock bubble implosion. You can have me with "Government Manipulation" if we assign blame to President Bush and his "ownership society" comment from his First Term.

The way we get out of debt by getting into more debt is if this new debt is the primary gasoline which ignites the overall economy and this overall economy resurgence allows us to raise taxes to address the longterm debts we've accumulated before. And if we stop warmongering. And if we put back gov't regulation. And then we strengthen the dollar.

I would still like to know why we debate $15billion versus $700billion?

And since Greenspan is a Repub/Libertarian, can we also finally throw dirt once and for all on Libertarianism as a realistic political philosophy?

 

[LBP 76]

The way we get out of debt by getting into more debt is if this new debt is the primary gasoline which ignites the overall economy and this overall economy resurgence allows us to raise taxes to address the longterm debts we've accumulated before. And if we stop warmongering. And if we put back gov't regulation. And then we strengthen the dollar.

Most people would agree with you. I personally think it's a recipe for a much longer, far worse situation. We will see.

I would still like to know why we debate $15billion versus $700billion?

Yeah, that does seem silly.

And since Greenspan is a Repub/Libertarian, can we also finally throw dirt once and for all on Libertarianism as a realistic political philosophy?

I'm no Libertarian.
I love their foreign policy (to butt out), their freer laws and their Austrian school economics. But they want to basically gut the government (no Medicare, etc.) and make it every person for themselves.
I am NOT for that.

 

[titsrock]

^
Fair enough.

I think a lot of our economic meltdown and fear COULD be mitigated RIGHT NOW if we put democratic principles AHEAD of protocol and installed the new president NOW rather than Jan 20. This lag time, given the messes we're in, is harming us.

 

[marquis2]

That's my point. Let the buyer beware.

I have lost (and made) lots of money over the years on real estate and stock speculation. And lots of salespeople, middlemen, bankers, stock brokers, etc. told me bad or unrealistic information to their benefit and often, my detriment. And they will have to answer for their own karma.
But the bottom line is it's my responsibility. I knowingly and voluntarily entered into an economic agreement on a subject I did not know much about. And so did these consumers.
And I take full responsibility for my losses.
And so should they.

Imo, Ignorance is a reason, but it's not an excuse; especially in law or in business.

Not entirely.If a layperson goes to an expert for advice and acts on that advice then some or most of the resulting responsibility rests with the expert.In the UK there have been many instances of companies selling unsuitable financial packages to members of the public who had a right to good professional treatment.In these cases the companies have been required to pay compensation.

 

[LBP 76]

Not entirely.If a layperson goes to an expert for advice and acts on that advice then some or most of the resulting responsibility rests with the expert.In the UK there have been many instances of companies selling unsuitable financial packages to members of the public who had a right to good professional treatment.In these cases the companies have been required to pay compensation.

Maybe. But I believe strongly in 'let the buyer beware'.

Owning a home is a big responsibility. And you have to be ready for it. If you aren't, you have no business owning one.
As far as I am concerned, owning a home is not a right; it's a privilege.
If people are SO ignorant that they would go massively into debt because a complete stranger (no matter what his/her credentials) tells them to then they are to weak and naive to be in the real estate market. And I have almost no pity for them as it's going to be my tax dollars that bails their ignorant asses out of this mess.

 

[busenbust]

Quite a lot of banter in the news about housing having reached a 'bottom': don't believe the hype/nonsense

 

[Funkwerkz]

Right now, Dow Jones is 348 points up and tries to reach 9000 points. The Christmas effect is obviously seen. FED indicated the signals of printing money to provide liquidity in markets. That 0.25% interest rate is quite dangerous, there are less things to get rid of recession. Stop cutting interest rates. Everybody tries to stop natural selection and feed the weak. Let weaks collapse and strongs survive.

 

[Facetious]

bump

A resounding YES !

 

[busenbust]

I smell Trouble :o

 

[Ovidius]

It will be "fun" to watch the US trying to make stuff for export with large parts of its industrial capacity gone overseas. For once I am happy not to live in California.

 

[D-rock]

At the rate it's going the Dow is soon going to be lower than it was way back when I was in high school. :eek: I'm not adjusting for inflation or anything either.

 

[lovejoy]

It will be "fun" to watch the US trying to make stuff for export with large parts of its industrial capacity gone overseas. For once I am happy not to live in California.

1. US and the West can recover and start making high quality products at reasonable prices. There are millions of Chinese/South American/Central American immigrants living in N. America willing to make low wages in the factories (just like Wal-Mart $9.00 buck for 5 hours part-time job, or UPS lifting boxes for $10) But it is also time for all Americans to work hard and demand less.

2. Tax rebate will not work in this "Depression" and the Republican voodoo policies will not fly. The Government has to create millions jobs(15-30 million jobs) paving roads, rebuilding schools and not wait for the "rich" citizens to renovate their homes and get tax rebate. it won't work.

3. The US Government will play central role to rebuild infrastructure and allow more Americans to have jobs, decent pay jobs and encourage comapnies not to ship jobs to China. The stock market will continue to slide because of loss of confidence in the bull market.

4. It is a very rough ride and the economy is too soft now. Get out there and spend some money to buy a new car/home.electronic items !!

 

[ChefChiTown]

I'm not worried about the economy. I'm just worried that people will continue to bitch and moan, while waiting for a God damned handout to solve their problems, instead of being a true American and working hard to get what they want. If people continue to sit back and point fingers, it's only going to get worse. That worries me.

Can't afford your rent? Move somewhere cheaper.
Can't afford car payments? Walk, ride a bike or take a bus.
Can't afford food? Stop eating out so much and buy cheaper groceries.
Can't find a job? Look harder and stop settling on unemployment.

The economy isn't going to improve if people continue to sit on their ass and wait for it to get better. Get up, sweat a little and things will be fine.

 

[D-rock]

I'm not worried about the economy. I'm just worried that people will continue to bitch and moan, while waiting for a God damned handout to solve their problems, instead of being a true American and working hard to get what they want. If people continue to sit back and point fingers, it's only going to get worse. That worries me.

Can't afford your rent? Move somewhere cheaper.
Can't afford car payments? Walk, ride a bike or take a bus.
Can't afford food? Stop eating out so much and buy cheaper groceries.
Can't find a job? Look harder and stop settling on unemployment.

The economy isn't going to improve if people continue to sit on their ass and wait for it to get better. Get up, sweat a little and things will be fine.

You got a very unrealistic view of what people are able to do. Just going out there and magically being able to find or do something doesn't happen. I would say with all those things you mentioned a lot of people are already at the point where they can't go any lower, don't have any of those options at their disposal at all, or can't find anything that doesn't exist in the first place.

 

[Member2019]

You got a very unrealistic view of what people are able to do.

I disagree! People making excuses is how we got into this mess.

Just going out there and magically being able to find or do something doesn't happen.

Actually, it's that simple. People making excuses is how we got into this mess.

I would say with all those things you mentioned a lot of people are already at the point where they can't go any lower, don't have any of those options at their disposal at all, or can't find anything that doesn't exist in the first place.

Then they aren't looking in the right places. They are still trying to maintain "The Jones" lifestyle. I see them living next to me every day. It is possible for two people making minimum wage (over $30K/year) to live well enough. My wife and I live comfortably on $30K/year.

People need to sweat out a new lifestyle. If they don't, they deserve the continued issues. Taking money from the responsible to pay for their lifestyle is not sustainable.

 

[D-rock]

I disagree! People making excuses is how we got into this mess.

Actually, it's that simple. People making excuses is how we got into this mess.

Then they aren't looking in the right places. They are still trying to maintain "The Jones" lifestyle. I see them living next to me every day. It is possible for two people making minimum wage (over $30K/year) to live well enough. My wife and I live comfortably on $30K/year.

People need to sweat out a new lifestyle. If they don't, they deserve the continued issues. Taking money from the responsible to pay for their lifestyle is not sustainable.

You know Prof, usually I don't even read your post anymore having been conditioned to automatically skip past almost all of them a long time ago (like a lot of people here I imagine). Not only are most of them needlessly long, even for me, and not to the point, but you might be the biggest pseudo-intellectual I have ever known. I'm guess I'm lucky I stumbled on this post. I hate to say this Prof, but somebody has to. You're not smart. You're not as smart as you think you are, not just in common sense either, but in textbook intelligence also. You might have a few people that agree with you, but that's more because they don't know enough either to see past it or you tell them what they like to hear.

There is a big difference between just making excuses and having true reasoning based in reality that common sense and experience gives you. I don't know maybe you live in some Horatio Alger version of reality where people magically can get anything to happen by just "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps" and good fortune will land their way. Maybe your afraid your economic libertarian/capitalistic philosophies don't always work in the real world and don't want to accept it. I don't know. I do know people that would almost kill for a minimum wage job right now, which is pretty sad. Out of my immediate family (brother, sisters, and parent) 2 of the six of us have found work and one is for minimum wage and it's not like we haven't just lost our jobs recently or we haven’t been looking for years. It's not something that is uncommon around here and many other places in the country.

Still with the scenario you gave one would have to somehow look past the facts both people are working and they both have to be working unlike in decades past, meaning they are probably screwed if they ever want a family even a small one and have something other than television raise their children, they probably have crappy health care if they have it at all, there is a good chance they work some grueling job where their body will get broken down for the benefit of other people as the years pass with nothing to show for it, like my late father, and the prospect for them ever getting lasting financial security or a better life get dimmer as time goes on. Saving for their kids college education would be an epic struggle. They would probably have to continually live one small step from some unforeseeable event leads them to catastrophe because they have no margin for error. Of course all that depends on the fact they can even find and continually keep that sad minimum wage job in the first place which is very far from certain. I guess if your definition of "sweat a new lifestyle" includes living paycheck to paycheck for pretty much all of your life and having to worry each day what the future holds or being on the bring of homelessness and soon to be homeless if things don't get better soon then you might be right. Maybe...just maybe it isn't their fault they and we as a people are in this mess. Maybe…just maybe the people you speak of aren’t irresponsible at all. Maybe...just maybe they have been the victim of a system both created and tailored to benefit the relatively few at the expense of everybody else, and as time goes on the breaking point gets harder to push back and contain. Maybe your economic philosophies just don’t amount to much when it comes to it. Then again, you’re the smart one Prof. What do I know?