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Americans wouldn't have to pay taxes if....

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
Abortion is closing up shop but TNA will be around forever.:facepalm:

:nono:


That's exactly the response I expected from you. Here's ol' Will taking his scissors to the constitution again. :facepalm:

I'll give you this much, Mr. Cupcake, at least you're consistent.

Not at all.


No, it's not...it might be killing, but it's not murder. There's a difference...but hey, you want to keep the babies around, you adopt them all. And abortion will never go away, if you make it illegal, it will take place in back rooms, just like it used to. Drugs are illegal, are they gone? Booze was once illegal, how did that work out for us?

Murder, the end.
 
There is a difference in murder and homicide, did you know that will?

The law says it is not. Until the law says otherwise, please stop using Gary Bauer type rhetoric.
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
It is only my opinion, but here's how I see it. If there is a separation of church and state...which I believe should exist, but really doesn't seem to, then yes, seeing as how the state can't govern by religious belief, it must govern by state belief, which means science must be the yard stick, and seeing as how doctors have determined when life begins and ends, if they say it's not dangerous. There ya go. Plus I would go so far as to also bring up the right to the pursuit of happiness. If the woman would suffer undo lifelong anguish, that's on her, as cold as it might sound. Although I do not feel tax payers should have to pay for them, especially if they are used as a form of birth control. However, birth control should be supplement-ally paid for.

Duly noted rev but the point I was trying to make is that abortion, like tax-exemption for religious organizations, is constitutional only because the SCOTUS has interpreted it to be as such. Doesn't make it right....doesn't make it wrong. It simply makes it the law as the court interprets it....period. So, if one uses a SCOTUS decision to justify the constitutionality of a given issue, one must also acquiesce to all said decisions as being within the bounds of the constitution. Whether or not one agrees with them is moot. That's why Will's stances are so myopic. He proudly touts the infallibility of the constitution when it happens to concur with his personal biases and he denigrates it when it doesn't. Sorry....it doesn't work that way in the real world.

So....Will....you are in favor of Islamic religious groups and organizations operating and promoting their doctrines and political agendas in the USA on a tax-free basis? Just want to hear you say "yes" to that question if you truly believe what you wrote earlier. :dunno:
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
Duly noted rev but the point I was trying to make is that abortion, like tax-exemption for religious organizations, is constitutional only because the SCOTUS has interpreted it to be as such. Doesn't make it right....doesn't make it wrong. It simply makes it the law as the court interprets it....period. So, if one uses a SCOTUS decision to justify the constitutionality of a given issue, one must also acquiesce to all said decisions as being within the bounds of the constitution. Whether or not one agrees with them is moot. That's why Will's stances are so myopic. He proudly touts the infallibility of the constitution when it happens to concur with his personal biases and he denigrates it when it doesn't. Sorry....it doesn't work that way in the real world.

So....Will....you are in favor of Islamic religious groups and organizations operating and promoting their doctrines and political agendas in the USA on a tax-free basis? Just want to hear you say "yes" to that question if you truly believe what you wrote earlier. :dunno:

Yeah, I guess I did miss your point. I tend not to think much about the Supreme Court. Half the shit they decide on, is constantly challenged, complained about, or just plain ignored by political powers, with fresh pens or fanatical groups with an agenda. But you tend to look at things with far less of a hateful outlook, then I do.

B.C. said:
There is a difference in murder and homicide, did you know that will?

I did not know that, please, do tell.

Will E Worm said:
Murder, the end.

So fucking what. People get murdered everyday, all day, some just as innocent as a child, some that deserve it. Strapping some sick fuck to an electric chair is murder too, but you don't snivel about that. I'll do you one better, I think we should all get 2 free ones a year.
 
Homicide is the taking of a human life by another human being. That is why some deaths are deemed justifiable homicide.

Murder is a criminal act of taking human life that was intentional, not always premeditated, but intended.

That is why criminal homicide where two people are involved in an altercation and one ends up dying is sometimes deemed manslaughter because the intent of taking of the life is not apparent or a preponderance of the evidence does not support a charge of murder
 
Under section 508ca of the tax code, churches are exempt from applying to the IRS for tax exempt status. So churches are automatically exempt from income taxes under the federal tax code without first applying to the IRS for recognition of exempt status.
 
Under section 508ca of the tax code, churches are exempt from applying to the IRS for tax exempt status. So churches are automatically exempt from income taxes under the federal tax code without first applying to the IRS for recognition of exempt status.

Do you know what happens to people that set up fronts for non compliance and evasion?

There is no separation wall of church and state violated if the government verifies that they received a legitimate exemption.

So what is your point?
 
Do you know what happens to people that set up fronts for non compliance and evasion?

There is no separation wall of church and state violated if the government verifies that they received a legitimate exemption.

So what is your point?

My point is nothing. I was just stating churches are automatically exempt. Jeez...........:facepalm:
 
Yes how dare someone care about our 3rd world electrical grid right? Especially considering that we built much better power grids in Iraq which fucking sucks.

If we don't fix our power grid we are going to be very sorry. Look at how long it took after hurricane sandy hit the coast. it took weeks for some people to get power back. in germany it wouldn't have gone down at all. we are exposed to terrorism to our power grid

And how is it bringing religion into government if they have to pay taxes on the millions they take from citizens and buy real estate with it? Thats fucking stupid and I'm embarrassed that you said some shit so dumb.
 
I have experienced at least six hurricanes during my lifetime and 2 or 3 were category 3 or higher storms. In each case the power was restored in less than 3 days.

The power grid and infrastructure argument is a diversion used by the left to attempt to channel money away from projects vital to our security and the military.
The roads that I travel to and fro work each day seem fine and the thunderstorm that hit last night didnt result in any major power outages.

So I ask you, have you ever been to Russia and Ukraine? Because I have and have seen first hand what a third world infrastructure looks like. Even to the point of crossing into Ukraine by train and waiting 4 hours for the wheels to be changed to be able to operate on old Soviet era tracks.

And churches have legitimate reasons to purchase real estate.

Just change your name to Mariah Mussolini and get it over with.
 
As for your VERY limited experience with hurricanes, my power blinks out at least 10 times every week. Why I ask Duke Energy, and they tell me that with all the people running their a/c the system gets overloaded. So how is that a "good system?" Our power grid is horrible but you being a fucking tea bagging in denial republican you will never admit it. You can blow your smoke up the asses of anyone you want but the reality is the reality. Our power grid has been declared horrible in every evaluation that has happened for the last 20 years. Putting it in the hands of corporations who make profit makes it 100 times worse. What's the business model of most corporations? "Provide as little product/service for as much profit as possible" SO they skimp on every cost and use the old concept that it's easier to say "sorry" that to ask permission.

Hurricane Sandy knocked out tens of thousands of people's power and because the power companies are for-profit, they took their sweet time and cut every cost possible to restore the power. Some people were without power for 3 weeks.

Legitimiate reasons? The cahtolic church is the largest holder of commercial real estate in the world. And as to your argument before, by providing a financial benefit to religious institutions, government is supporting religion which it is NOT supposed to do. Furthermore, if they give exemption status to believers but not to non-believers, then they are being partial based on belief, and that is also illegal. And there is no such provision in the constitution that churches should be exempt from paying taxes. Its a privilege, not a right. They also get special treatment by the IRS that other non-profits don't which is bullshit.

And here is the BIGGEST crock of shit.... by giving churches tax exemptions, the government is requiring ALL americans to support religion. One of my favorite authors Mark Twain said it beautifully... "no church property is taxed and so the infidel and the atheist and the man without religion are taxed to make up the deficit in the public income thus caused." SO when you bitch about your tax dollars paying for medicine for poor people, you are being a fucking hypocrite. You don't mind it going towards churches because you believe in the big book fairy tales so you're okay with it. But under the EXACT same circumstances but for a different cause you throw a fucking fit. HYPOCRITE.

And the church of scientology is considered a religion in the US and many other countries no matter what they really are. They are no more a cult than mormons or jehovah's witnesses or evangeslists. They all prey on their congregations to fund their bullshit. They all sell something that they can never deliver that can't even be proven exists. No religion is better than any other.
 
Here you go this says it perfectly:

Should churches be tax exempt? Those who say yes believe that tax exemption keeps the government out of church finances and therefore maintains the separation of church and state; as the Supreme Court stated, “The power to tax involves the power to control.” Advocates for the exemption also say that churches deserve this tax exemption because they provide essential social services– “the social benefit theory” of tax exemption. Churches, they claim, provide great benefits to society by their good works. Churches help the poor and the people in need; they provide many social services for the destitute and needy, and reach out to them in different ways. This results in things like reduced crime rates due to lives that have been changed and suicides that have been prevented.

On the other hand the opponents argue that giving churches special tax exemptions does not separate church from state but rather violates it and that tax exemptions are a privilege, not a right guaranteed by the US Constitution. They also say that in tough economic times the government cannot afford what amounts to a subsidy worth billions of dollars every year. Another argument is that it can be easily abused. For example, there are bogus churches that are set up for the sole purpose ofavoiding taxes. According to an IRS attorney “there was a brothel “church,” where sisterly love is offered to male worshippers in exchange for donations. In Hardenburgh, New York several years ago, 235 of the 239 property owners in that town were granted religious tax exemption because the properties of the owners were made branches of the mail-order “Universal Life Church.” In Wisconsin, hotels, pay parking lots, farms, and communion wafer bakeries are among the church holdings that are tax exempt. Overall, at least $4.2 billion in tax-exempt religious property now exists in that state alone. This is costing taxpayers even more money because they have to monitor and uncover these types of tricks.

Lastly, it costs average people a lot of money. Just think of it this way, for every tax dollar a religious organization does not pay, you and I are paying for it. And many of those religious organizations are amongst the wealthiest organizations in the world; for example by 1971, the total of real and personal property owned by U.S. churches was around $110 billion. In New York City alone, the amount was $3 billion in 1989. A 1986 study showed religious income in that year roughly $100 billion, or about five times the income of the five largest corporations in the U.S.

But how much exactly does the government lose? Ryan Cragun, an assistant professor of sociology at the University of Tampa, and two students examined U.S. tax laws to estimate the total cost of tax exemptions for religious institutions on property, donations, business enterprises, capital gains and “parsonage allowances,” which permit clergy to deduct housing costs. According to them, the US government gives up perhaps as much as $71 billion a year. States bypass an estimated $26.2 billion per year by not requiring religious institutions to pay property taxes. They also examined federal tax exemption laws, and some state and local laws, specifically in their home state of Florida. What they found was that capital gains tax exemptions for religious institutions may be as much as $41 million a year and U.S. ministry may claim as much as $1.2 billion in tax exemptions annually via the parsonage allowance.

Now to answer the “big question”: If churches paid taxes, would it be enough to pay for all the food stamps for every person on welfare? According to Cragum et al the estimated annual government subsidy of religion in the US per year is $71billion:



Federal income tax subsidy $35.3 billion

State income tax subsidy $6.1 billion

Property tax subsidy $26.2 billion

Investment tax subsidy $41 million

Parsonage subsidy $1.2 billion

Faith-Based Initiatives subsidy $2.2 billion

—————————————————

Total $71 billion

The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, formerly the Food Stamp Program, has a diagram of all the monthly costs. By adding up these numbers we can conclude that it would cost about $76 billion to pay for all the food stamps for people on welfare. The diagram can be found here.

From the numbers above we can conclude that it is possible to pay almost all the food stamps of people on welfare if churches paid taxes. So at the end of the day everyone would benefit from Churches paying tax; they are a big part of the American society and they gain a lot of profits through many forms like donations, events, fund-raisers, trips and selling merchandise. Churches are NPO (non-profit organizations), which means that they should be taxed in the same ways as other organizations. Other NPO’s pay taxes on things like profits, franchise, business license tax, property tax and payroll taxes. Also churches use a lot of community resources such as land and real estate. They use even more than other single co-operations. If churches just paid tax on personal property, taxes for everyone would drop dramatically and those earning incomes under $140k no longer have to pay any taxes at all.
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
And here is the BIGGEST crock of shit.... by giving churches tax exemptions, the government is requiring ALL americans to support religion. One of my favorite authors Mark Twain said it beautifully... "no church property is taxed and so the infidel and the atheist and the man without religion are taxed to make up the deficit in the public income thus caused." SO when you bitch about your tax dollars paying for medicine for poor people, you are being a fucking hypocrite. You don't mind it going towards churches because you believe in the big book fairy tales so you're okay with it. But under the EXACT same circumstances but for a different cause you throw a fucking fit. HYPOCRITE.

And the church of scientology is considered a religion in the US and many other countries no matter what they really are. They are no more a cult than mormons or jehovah's witnesses or evangeslists. They all prey on their congregations to fund their bullshit. They all sell something that they can never deliver that can't even be proven exists. No religion is better than any other.


I see what you did there....clever, but it's not the same kind of support, and while I would love to see EVERY religious faction pay their fare share, it's likely not going to happen, until the aliens invade, and disprove God...which isn't going to happen in your lifetime.


Now, as far as the other thing....................GET A FUCKIN GRIP!!!! even you know better then that. DO NOT, even compare the cult of scientology with anything that has existed on this earth, as long as the main three religions. Even though you hate them all, and that is your right, do not insult people by putting those cuntbags in the same class. That's just fucking wrong, and you now it.
 
Thought so. If you are going to try and speak on a topic such as religion, at least try and familiarize yourself with centuries old religions and cults that were established less than 100 years ago and recognize the difference. It makes you look uninformed and silly.

Basically you advocate full blown socialism. No one goes from a Bush voter to card carrying commie like you claim to over a few hot button issues like gay rights and an ill advised war.

You weren't pushed over some cliff by the cowboy from Texas. You were there years ago.
 
Yes I advocate socialism in many cases. Privatization is killing this country because its all about skimping on value to make more profit.

And I swear on my son, I was an avid fox news viewer and republican until 2005. I started seeing the ridiculousness of it all and how hypocritical they all were. When my neighbors came asking for money to buy asthma medication for their 9 year old sister because their father had been laid off and his insurance cancelled and she later died, it changed everything for me. Once I started traveling to Europe and seeing how well things worked there it sunk in. We are nothing but a country controlled by the wealthy with zero concern for the not-wealthy. There is a reason the gap between the 2 has increased in multiples of 100 since we got away from the socialist programs that made this country thrive in the 50s and 60s. I stated reading and paying attention and changed my mind. I know thats such a foreign concept to you but some people are actually capable of changing their position which actually is against my own interests, but in a different way than yours. You support people who give to the wealthy on the backs of the poor, and I support the side that takes from the wealthy and gives to the poor. I am proud to say I changed my side and why. You only are concerned about the wealthy people and adding more zeros to your bank account with total disregard for who it hurts.
 
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