Americans are stupid

[BlueBalls]

Yea? Well... so is ur mom!

 

[Facetious]

 

[Facetious]

I agree that we need to refocus on education in this country. But it goes further than that, since there are some very smart people who don't have college degrees and there are some really stupid bastards who have a wall full of them. Agree? :dunno:

IMO, we focus too much on crap that doesn't matter. I bet the majority of the people in the clips I posted, who didn't know what "suffrage" meant, could tell us all about Kim K@rdashian or Lindsay Loh@n. But I bet they'd be hard pressed to even know which party their member of Congress belongs to, much less his name. Too many of us don't have basic knowledge about important things, but we have loads of knowledge on things that mean little or nothing.

What good is a head full of useless knowledge or a head that primarily exists in an echo chamber, incapable of independent thought... unable to acquire or process data and come to a rational conclusion? I won't say that we're more stupid than a lot of other (developed) nations. But our lack of knowledge on many topics, combined with our arrogance, does seem to make us appear stupid too much of the time, IMO.

Do you think that our dumbing down came about by (A) sheer happenstance, or was it (B)a carefully orchestrated movement carried about deep within the bowels of our political apparatus?... (C) other?

Let's get down to the root cause of the problem and exterminate from within! :flame:

:nanner:

 

[Rey C.]

Do you think that our dumbing down came about by (A) sheer happenstance, or was it (B)a carefully orchestrated movement carried about deep within the bowels of our political apparatus?... (C) other?

Let's get down to the root cause of the problem and exterminate from within! :flame:

:nanner:

Excellent question. Too bad I don't know enough about what led us to this to give you an excellent answer. Short of verifiable, objective evidence, I'm really not prone to conspiracy theories. So I doubt that I would accept B) as a primary root cause. Considering what schools were like when I was a child compared to now, I'd say it's probably a combination of bad education management (including the DoE and the NEA), lack of education policy at the federal and state levels and bad/lack of parenting.

My mother was a teacher. Several other family members are/were teachers. My ex-fiancee was/is a teacher. My current girl is a school administrator. I've taught classes to adults (mostly in work place settings), but never kids. Anyone who has the patience and courage to teach kids deserves a medal, IMO. And I'll be honest, from what I've seen of today's kids, I'd have to put most of the blame on parents. These brats and monsters didn't get dropped off here from outer space. When I was in high school I coached little league basketball. With sports, the kids WANTED to be there. And if they acted up, I would run their little asses (literally) until their tongues hung out. But teachers in a classroom don't often have kids who want to be there. And even in sports, if you took kids and ran them up & down the court like I used to do as punishment, the mommy ducks and daddy ducks would call 911 and try to have you arrested. Today's kids are soft, fat, weak and lazy because that's how their parents are raising them.

 

[dongkong]

Most people take Govt and American History before they get out of high school. So could this be the result of bad teachers? This idea that because people cant pass the citizenship test really dosnt prove that Americans are stupid. Most people who take the citizenship test are given a study guide. Are you you telling me that if you gave Americans a study guide and then asked them these questions, They wouldnt know the answers? Im sure most Americans would pass after studying. My grandfather took the citizenship exam and passed. That was about 20 years ago, If you ask him the same questions. Id be surprised if he can answer even 1 of them correctly. Bottom line Americans arnt any more stupid than people from other countries.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Most people take Govt and American History before they get out of high school. So could this be the result of bad teachers? This idea that because people cant pass the citizenship test really dosnt prove that Americans are stupid. Most people who take the citizenship test are given a study guide. Are you you telling me that if you gave Americans a study guide and then asked them these questions, They wouldnt know the answers? Im sure most Americans would pass after studying. My grandfather took the citizenship exam and passed. That was about 20 years ago, If you ask him the same questions. Id be surprised if he can answer even 1 of them correctly. Bottom line Americans arnt any more stupid than people from other countries.

Yes they are given a study guide because they aren't from here therefore they don't know much about our country. An American shouldn't need a study guide to pass the citizenship test because all of the things on that test you should've learned from your education, they teach all that stuff to you in school

If you're an American and you need a study guide for this, something is wrong.
http://www.history.com/interactives/citizenship-quiz

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

Harvard economist Roland Fryer has identified five habits of successful schools in America, and spending more $$$ isn't one of them:

Harvard economist (and Freakonomics friend) Roland Fryer has a new paper out (full version here) that takes a look at the specific successful habits of charter schools. Along with co-author Will Dobbie, Fryer collected “unparalleled data” on 35 elementary and middle charter schools in New York City by conducting extensive interviews and videotaping classrooms.
Their results are fairly counter-intuitive. They showed that traditional solutions like class size, per-pupil expenditure, and the number of teachers with advanced degrees are not correlated with effectiveness, and in fact, “resource-based solutions” actually lowered school effectiveness.
Instead, they found five qualities that made up about 50 percent of a charter school’s effectiveness. These are:
1. Frequent teacher feedback
2. Data driven instruction
3. High-dosage tutoring
4. Increased instructional time
5. Relentless focus on academic achievement.
For example, a high-achieving charter middle-school teacher gets feedback 13.42 times per semester, versus 6.35 times at other charter schools. Similarly, high achieving middle-schools test their students 4 times per semester, compared to 2.4 at other schools.
Perhaps even more interesting, these qualities remained paramount to a successful charter school despite different styles of environment, such as “Whole Child,” “No Excuses” (like KIPP), and teacher-retention.

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/12...es-five-habits-of-successful-charter-schools/

So the next time some tool bitches about the taxpayer spending more on education (we already spend more than the Western world), refer them to this study.

 

[Rey C.]

Harvard economist Roland Fryer has identified five habits of successful schools in America, and spending more $$$ isn't one of them:



http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/12...es-five-habits-of-successful-charter-schools/

So the next time some tool bitches about the taxpayer spending more on education (we already spend more than the Western world), refer them to this study.

I absolutely agree with all that he's said there. And I agree with you that it's not so much the amount of money spent, as it is the way that money is spent. But one thing that he's left out is parent participation. Unless the parent drills the importance of education into the child's head at an early age, you're facing a lost cause. You cannot teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Or as I put it (when I make the case for firing a plant manager or superintendent that I've worked with... and who just doesn't get it): "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time... and it annoys the pig. Sometimes all you can do is make bacon." IMO, there are WAY too many "lil oinkers" in America's classrooms.

The infrastructure is falling apart in this country. And not just the physical infrastructure; our intellectual infrastructure is crumbling as well. And just like the physical, there just doesn't seem to be a plan in place at the federal or state levels to deal with the intellectual infrastructure either.

And it's more than just about passing a citizenship test. How the hell can you have a functioning democracy with voter participation rates in the low 50's (on average)?! How the hell can you have a functioning democracy with more people knowing who Kim K@rdashian is than their member of the House???!!! The U.S. has one of the lowest voter participation rates in the developed world. But our per capita consumption of video games is one of the highest in the developed world. Math and science scores place us around 27th globally (last I checked). At some point, we have to face the truth: we are fucked unless we change our ways and reorder our priorities. Having the most badass military in the world isn't worth a crap if all it's protecting is the right to play World of Warcraft at 3AM.

 

[xfire]

America has some of the stupidest motherfuckers in the world, no doubt about that. We've also got the smartest motherfuckers here, too. Outliers mean jack shit. Learn normal distribution.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

America has some of the stupidest motherfuckers in the world, no doubt about that. We've also got the smartest motherfuckers here, too. Outliers mean jack shit. Learn normal distribution.

And that is the problem I have with how we place in polls. When you have 100 million weighing us down in polls, they are very skewed. Suburb kids (with two parents and a solid home environment) I believe do just fine and if we just tested them we would fare much better in these polls. Of course Fins are going to test the best in the world when they are only 5-10 million population and the poverty rate is non existent.

:2 cents:

 

[xfire]

Exactamundo, my bloodshot friend. The fact that our scores are down actually proves that America is a greater place that provides opportunity for everyone, including the not-so-bright. For all I know the Chi-coms just put a bullet through the head of anyone that doesn't perform well.

 

[Rey C.]

America has some of the stupidest motherfuckers in the world, no doubt about that. We've also got the smartest motherfuckers here, too. Outliers mean jack shit. Learn normal distribution.

Assuming there could be agreement on what and how "stupid" is defined and what factors make that up, let's say we do have normal data sets. We could do means testing, right? So if the average (mean) American ranks 27th globally in math and science, doesn't that (at least somewhat) suggest...? :dunno:

I see people every month at different facilities who (supposedly) have shiny, new engineering degrees... yet they can't form complete sentences in an email or in a report. There are some who are so pitiful that I make them send reports to me or my assistant before they go out to customers or clients. If they were born somewhere else, that would be understandable. But that's usually not the case. They were born right here. Probably as a result of my "abusive" childhood (being criticized if I used improper grammar ), I tend to judge people harshly, in professional settings, if they can't "speak the language". Right or wrong, at work, if you sound stupid, I assume you probably are. On message boards and with friends, I say let it fly. When it's just shits & giggles, ain't nothin' wrong with sayin' "ain't" every now & agin! But at work, you should know how to communicate. Which brings me to another point: our literacy rankings place us at 20th in the world! :wtf:

 

[xfire]

So if the average (mean) American ranks 27th globally in math and science, doesn't that (at least somewhat) suggest...? :dunno:

I work with statistics all the time and the first rule anyone should know about them is that they can be used to prove anything. For example, if I want to discredit the argument that "Americans are stupid", all I need to do is counter with these numbers... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp-economy-gdp-nominal and assert that any country with the largest GDP of any other couldn't possibly be stupid, right?

I see people every month at different facilities who (supposedly) have shiny, new engineering degrees

Let me stop you right there and ask you simply this; did you have all your shit together ripe out of college? I didn't and I wouldn't bust balls too hard, if I were you.

 

[Rey C.]

And that is the problem I have with how we place in polls. When you have 100 million weighing us down in polls, they are very skewed. Suburb kids (with two parents and a solid home environment) I believe do just fine and if we just tested them we would fare much better in these polls. Of course Fins are going to test the best in the world when they are only 5-10 million population and the poverty rate is non existent.

:2 cents:

When you look at stats, among the issues you run into is common cause vs. special cause. If some portion (usually a fairly small portion) of your result has been affected by a special cause event (a huge snow storm that kept kids out of school for six months or something like that), then what you're saying is true. But you can't cherry pick the sample population to juice the results. If we're talking about Americans, then the American kids sampled in East L.A. are as much Americans as the American kids in Palos Verdes. Add to that, effective random sampling relies on a sample population that is reflective of the overall population. So if the overall population is made up of 20% "kids in single parent homes", then the random sample should be made up of about the same percentage.

I'm not being shitty or picking on my fellow Americans. But we have to compete globally. And in a competition, no one cares about your childhood, whether your dad threw a ball to you as a kid, if you went to bed hungry last night or anything else. Either you are prepared to face your competition... or you're not. Whether I'm bidding against someone at an auction or I'm getting ready to evict them for non-payment of rent, I don't care to hear a hard luck story. My goal in life is to take care of me and mine... not you and yours. We should all know and accept that life ain't fair. So best to be as well prepared as possible. And if you aren't... :dunno:


All I'm saying is, America is clearly falling behind in MANY areas. And rather than make excuses, we need to step up to the plate.

 

[Thomas O'Malley]

http://board.freeones.com/showthrea...ratch-and-the-other-misguided-members-in-here

The living example on this very board.

 

[xfire]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp-economy-gdp-nominal

South Korea
Education- #1
Population- #25 48,580,000
GDP- #12 $1,467,000,000,000.00

United States
Education- #14
Population- #3 312,799,000
GDP- #1 $14,720,000,000,000.00

The comparison only gets worse for other countries the further down the list you go.

Let's look at GDP side-by-side-
USA GDP- #1 $14,720,000,000,000.00
SoK GDP- #12 $1,467,000,000,000.00

So, Americans are stupid compared to?

 

[Rey C.]

I work with statistics all the time and the first rule anyone should know about them is that they can be used to prove anything. For example, if I want to discredit the argument that "Americans are stupid", all I need to do is counter with these numbers... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp-economy-gdp-nominal and assert that any country with the largest GDP of any other couldn't possibly be stupid, right?

No, that's usually just a cop-out, used by those who are looking at something which is either ill defined or isn't being properly measured/analyzed. If we were to agree upon and set a standard definition for this, as I mentioned before, and employed a standard measurement system, something as simple as a means test would paint at least a basic picture. That's the wonderful thing about math (statistical or otherwise): if everyone is looking at the same numbers, there's no way to arrive at a (radically) different answer. Only if one of us is measuring an apple and the other measuring an orange will that happen.

As for GDP, one might ask what the correlation and causal relationship is between "stupidity" and Consumption + Gross Investment + Government Spending + (Exports - Imports). Not trying to be funny, but I really don't know.

If a case could be made that GDP has such a relationship to "stupidity", then I would agree that our overall level of "stupidity" (by that measure) isn't so bad. But when one considers that roughly 70% of our GDP is made up of Consumption, yet we carry one of the highest private debt levels in the world combined with a relatively low savings rates, I don't know how well that relationship would hold up to scrutiny.

Let me stop you right there and ask you simply this; did you have all your shit together ripe out of college? I didn't and I wouldn't bust balls too hard, if I were you.

It's not about busting balls. And I'm truly not trying to be a dick. Seriously. Sorry if it's coming off that way. And I'm not here to toot my own horn. But actually, yes, I did have my shit together right out of college (and before). I didn't take summers off and I worked externships and internships to get a better feel for the real world. I really did bust my ass in school and as soon as I got out. Going without sleep for 24-36 hours, or sleeping on the floor of my office when I was too tired to drive home, was just what I felt I HAD to do to get me to where I wanted/needed to be. And along the way, I also caught some lucky breaks... mainly because I was always "somewhere" - which makes being in the right place at the right time much more likely. I was hired at a mortgage company, and was able to buy into it, because they saw me as a go-getter/maniac for money. Admittedly, I was (and maybe still am) an out of balance human being. I've often chosen opportunities to make money over relationships. I've fucked up a LOT of good relationships. But when it came to making a $, I did not fuck around even a little bit. That's not to say that I also haven't had some MASSIVE fuck-ups over the years though. Trust me, I have done at least my share of stupid shit. Just not enough that it's taken me down Lesson #1: Don't take an interest in a strip bar in lieu of a commission. If the "managers" don't pay the payroll and income taxes, the IRS will haul your dumb ass into the Big Chair too. Now I know. So... no more absentee owner titty bars for me. :hatsoff:

My father never got the chance to go to college. He didn't even get the chance to finish high school. During the Great Depression, he was up before the sun rose and went to bed after the sun set. He lost out on that chance because he had to feed his family on the farm. So he was not educated. But in more ways than I can count, he was a lot smarter than me. Having an MBA doesn't make you smart. And not having one doesn't make you stupid. But too many kids now days (IMO) want to "find themselves" and talk about how hard they have it. We're all born ignorant. But to willingly stay that way makes one stupid, IMO.

 

[xfire]

Only if one of us is measuring an apple and the other measuring an orange will that happen.

That's the entire gist of what I'm saying. I don't know what you studied in college, but, whatever it was didn't value brevity.

 

[Icewater Jones]

There is about a grand canyon wide difference between 'stupid' and 'uneducated'.

 

[xfire]

What's the measure of stupid? At best it's an adjective, like boring. At worst it's an insult. Are Americans, as a whole, boring?