*2020 US Presidential Elections* - Candidates, Statistics, Campaign Timelines, Debates

[gmase]

So states where republicans still hold power are making desperate attempts to rig their electoral systems to keep republicans in power. This is a party that knows it's out the door unless it can maintain it's grip on power, by any means necessary.

It's the same old playbook, voter suppression through reduced early and mail in voting, new voter ID laws, etc. While most are framing it as an attempt to ensure election integrity, some, like republican board of elections member Alice O'Lenick in Atlanta, are saying the quiet part out loud - They don’t have to change all of them, but they’ve got to change the major parts of them so that we at least have a shot at winning.

The republican party is in it's death throes, and good riddance I say, but where it still holds power there is still danger to democracy. You want to have a conservative party, that's fine, but not this group of fanatical extremists. They've been quietly consolidating their stranglehold on US politics for decades with initiatives like red map, it's going to take a lot more than 1 presidential election to get them all out.

Good assessment, but ...

Despite winning the Presidency and gaining ground in the Senate, the Dems did not do themselves many favors in November.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/04/statehouse-elections-2020-434108

I wouldn't say the Republican Party is in 'its death throes.' They made gains in November and the conservative mind is not going anywhere. It may be split in the near future, but there is a reasonable segment of people not happy with liberalism. Biden was not Trump or Hillary. A better vision is needed. I would suggest ramming as much as possible into the next two years.

 

[mongo18]

I would suggest ramming as much as possible into the next two years.

That's what we're all hoping for. Americans are terrified of "liberalism" and "socialism" because on average they don't know what either of those terms mean. Those on the right are screaming "socialism" as loud as they can right now, but if Biden can achieve the policies he's pushing so far, the majority will see their standard of living improve, and the state of the nation improve, and then it will be up to republicans to take it all away again, rather than just blocking it like they have been.

Even the link you posted just reinforces my point that republicans have no hope of winning a fair election. If the dems had achieved what they just achieved in a fair and balanced system, it would be good but not extraordinary. The results they achieved with the entire system rigged against them proves that they have the support of the majority. The republicans haven't been a majority in my lifetime, and never will again. Sure, the conservative mind isn't going anywhere, but it certainly isn't growing in popularity. I doubt there's many 10 year olds now who will be proud republicans 10 or 20 years from now.

You can only get so far on hatred and lies, and trump has really exposed the right for what they are. They have nothing to offer a forward-looking society.

 

[mongo18]

Another thing that occurs to me regarding the future competitiveness of the republican party is the quality of it's members. The party has been able to hold on to so much power, for so long, despite being such an obvious minority, thanks largely to the work of unscrupulous, but competent, people.
But these new tea party-qanon mongrel republicans like hawley, boebert, and greene are the new generation, and they're not greedy, calculating, power mongers. They are full on fucking lunatics. Are they going to be thinking long game or short term? And what the fuck are their priorities even going to be? What would success look like to these people?

 

[Luxman]

Hawley, Boebert, and Greene, like most republicans, are driven primarily by greed, they only pretend to believe the lies and disinformation they preach.
They're pandering to the ignorant and disinformed republican base, for votes and donations, so they can stay in office and abuse their power, to enrich themselves.
They are also pandering to the greed driven corrupt corporate ahole republicans, who donate to and expect the republican party to cut taxes and regulations to corporations and corrupt rich aholes.

Inside the U.S. Capitol at the height of the siege

 

[mongo18]

See here. The first 6 minutes of this BTC vid is CNN journo Pamela Brown absolutely holding madison cawthorn's feet to the fire over actual proof of election fraud. I could be wrong, I hope I'm not, but I kinda suspect that people are not going to put up with near as much shit from the right as they used to. I think even those on the other side accept that they bear some responsibility for the position we're in because they let the right get away with far too much bullshit that can't be justified.
Of course, once things settle down a bit and normalcy returns everybody might forget all about this and go back to worrying about themselves and republicans could scheme their way back in while nobody's paying attention, but it feels like we're getting closer to the time when people won't forget, and won't back down. This one could be it if we keep it fresh in each other's minds.

 

[gmase]

That's what we're all hoping for. Americans are terrified of "liberalism" and "socialism" because on average they don't know what either of those terms mean. Those on the right are screaming "socialism" as loud as they can right now, but if Biden can achieve the policies he's pushing so far, the majority will see their standard of living improve, and the state of the nation improve, and then it will be up to republicans to take it all away again, rather than just blocking it like they have been.

Even the link you posted just reinforces my point that republicans have no hope of winning a fair election. If the dems had achieved what they just achieved in a fair and balanced system, it would be good but not extraordinary. The results they achieved with the entire system rigged against them proves that they have the support of the majority. The republicans haven't been a majority in my lifetime, and never will again. Sure, the conservative mind isn't going anywhere, but it certainly isn't growing in popularity. I doubt there's many 10 year olds now who will be proud republicans 10 or 20 years from now.

You can only get so far on hatred and lies, and trump has really exposed the right for what they are. They have nothing to offer a forward-looking society.

Yes, no one truly understands what 'socialism' means. The US is a partially socialistic country now (e.g., social security, medicare, medicaid, et al.). It has lost its true meaning and is only a pejorative. Eugene Debs rolls.

Yes, no one truly understands what 'liberalism' means. It is defined as "a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law." (It sounds like a Republican talking point actually. It is my philosophy although I typically get boxed as a conservative. The point of divergence is who qualifies as 'all'. I have no qualifier: all = all.)

Here's the conundrum: Conservatives are better at understanding power and how to apply it. Liberals are better at improving the human condition. The better salesperson wins. Every woman, African-American and Native American who voted can thank a liberal. That scares too many people.

 

[gmase]

Another thing that occurs to me regarding the future competitiveness of the republican party is the quality of it's members. The party has been able to hold on to so much power, for so long, despite being such an obvious minority, thanks largely to the work of unscrupulous, but competent, people.
But these new tea party-qanon mongrel republicans like hawley, boebert, and greene are the new generation, and they're not greedy, calculating, power mongers. They are full on fucking lunatics. Are they going to be thinking long game or short term? And what the fuck are their priorities even going to be? What would success look like to these people?

The quality is diminishing in the House due to the gerrymandering. I am unsure about the Senate (Cruz and Hawley excepting).

They are thinking short-term, the priorities are gun, gas, and god, and success will never be achieved as there will always be someone to put down or oppress. Boebert should focus on helping her district not herself. She is a disgrace to Colorado.

 

[Theopolis Q. Hossenffer]

And as has been said we are partially Socialist. And it has been fought tooth and nail all the way. In the 1930's Social Security was going to destroy the family, make people lazy and shiftless and in general destroy the nation. In the 60's The Great Society was going to end America as we know it. Free medical care for seniors will destroy the budget and force rationing for medical care. Helping hands for those in need, that will make people lazy and unwilling to work. Destroy families. Obamacare, will destroy medical care as we know it(common theme apparently) and make if unaffordable for the poor. Rationing, Death Panels, end of modern society. Now if any politician even mentions touching any other these programs(even more and more Obamacare) they are in deep shit. Imagine taking Social Security and Medicare form all those White Trumpistas. They would riot. Course they think God is providing it I suppose but still.

 

[mongo18]

I typically get boxed as a conservative....Conservatives are better at understanding power and how to apply it.

I think that's another term that means a lot of different things to different people. Given the last 4 years, it's tough to see what principles "conservatives" hold dear. I guess maybe the term was co-opted by the far right, whose base might overlap so much that conservatives who are not extreme right are in the minority.

I imagine that early republican conservatives were for small, local governments, with a community focus. Locals supporting each other, fiscal responsibility, moderation in all things, jesus, fierce patriotism, that type of thing. There's plenty of evidence around of old school republicans supporting common sense social programs in a way we all know they wouldn't today. Of course they were racist as fuck too, but it was a different time, and a person could be on board with the platform in general even if they weren't really into the racism stuff.

Along the line somewhere (possibly right around reagan), republicans seemed to pivot from all that god and loving thy neighbor crap, to loving money and power. Why help the working class, when you can help yourselves and the wealthy and just tell the working class that you're helping them too? That's the kind of thinking that dominated "conservatism" from at least as far back as reagan, right into Obama's term. They spread whatever version of the truth they wanted through willing participants like fox news and right wing radio, while they quietly starved the economy and siphoned off more and more for themselves and their rich mates. We all know how the economy's been trending during that period. So I don't think fiscal conservatism applies anymore, nor does helping out your local communities and small, non-intrusive government. During this period, when you consider what Americans actually get for their tax money, they became probably the highest taxed nation on earth, with almost no domestic programs to show for it.
During this period, "conservative" became all about political control. This is when redmap and similar initiatives happened. Not worrying about ideas or policies or good governance, getting red asses into seats so the dems would be effectively impotent for the rest of time. They might have been able to keep this going if they could hold it together and keep it in their pants. They were still racist as fuck, and fiercely patriotic (nothing more infuriating than a Russian existing!), and slowly choking off the life of the economy, but they could just blame the everyday difficulties of life on those non-republicans and still scrape together enough votes to get by.

Of course, they couldn't hold it together and keep it in their pants. When a black man was elected president in 2008, "conservatives" lost their collective fucking minds. Fuck fiscal conservatism. Deficits don't matter under a republican government, only a democrat one. Fuck knowing what's in the constitution, nobody else does, right? Just make up whatever suits you at the time. Family values? Jesus? Moderation? Public service? None of that shit matters, as long as you're owning libs. Fighting socialism, even if the benefits of that socialism would serve your friends and neighbors.

Seems like all conservatives have left is racism and hatred. If you're for any of those other things, I don't think you're a conservative anymore. Welcome to the dark side.


Edit: Bubb's preceding post kinda contradicts mine a bit. Maybe those "rugged individualism" republicans have always been there, but in times past, there were some compassionate conservatives too. I don't think there are many of those left, if any

 

[Theopolis Q. Hossenffer]

Mongo back in ancient times(pre Regan) There were two sub spieces of Republican's and Democrats called, now wait for it, Conservative Democrats and Liberal Republicans. Both are almost extinct, surviving mostly in the minds of former members. There is where most deal making occurred. Among folks who could talk rationally and understand one another's positions without fighting and posturing. I agree with a lot of what you say, the tribes are tight and mostly closed. But remember that all Real Republicans and even some Trumpistas are not evil. And all the Democrats are not angels and heroes. Illinois where I live has been run by Democrats for almost 40 years and is one of the most poorly run states in the nation. Tax and spend and get rich and stay in office forever is the mantra. The Government unions tell citizens how their live will be led. Taxes are enormous and we have more governmental units than any other state. All with their hands out. California is Democratic run and another nightmare for folks living there. One thing that I have seen is that often when a program is started to help folks what happens is it takes on a life of it's own. People are hired to administer it, then they become a political voice, then the folks who are being helped get used to the idea of stuff being given to them and voila! An Entitlement is born. What has failed here is the loss of any willingness by our leaders to say no. Easier to just keep going and handing out free stuff. Now that said a lot of your arguments are valid. But the question of how to return common sense to a county spiraling out of control is one I have no answer for.

 

[mongo18]

Mongo back in ancient times(pre Regan) There were two sub spieces of Republican's and Democrats called, now wait for it, Conservative Democrats and Liberal Republicans.

That sure is a mindfuck, but I'm curious to know where the common ground was, that they found. What policies and initiatives did those 2 sides agree on? I think it would be informative to know, because I suspect it would be pretty clear which of the parties would or would not be willing to tread that common ground again, if specific policies or even just agreed upon concepts were known.

What has failed here is the loss of any willingness by our leaders to say no. Easier to just keep going and handing out free stuff. Now that said a lot of your arguments are valid. But the question of how to return common sense to a county spiraling out of control is one I have no answer for.

You lost me there. What is the free stuff being handed out? And to who? And, forgive me if I misinterpreted something, but are you suggesting that an overabundance of excessively generous social programs is one of America's failings?

Picture all of society. It's something we've all chipped in on. Sure, there are a handful of people who will always be a net drain on society, but it's a small number and we'll focus on those with jobs. There are easily enough resources in the USA (and the world, but we'll stick with USA), for everyone who works to have a decent standard of living. You know, not be cold, hungry, homeless, uneducated, sick with no access medical care, that type of thing. So why are there people who work jobs who don't have access to those things? Sure, some jobs are worth more than others, some a lot more, but if you fill a role and contribute to a society where nothing is in absolute shortage, then why should you lack the basic essentials of life, while others pile up more than they could use in a thousand lifetimes?

 

[gmase]

Why do I get the feeling Republicans want everyone to forget the whole day? "In the name of unity, ignore what some of our supporters wanted to do on the 6th. It was all just fun and games." https://thehill.com/homenews/senate...aul-effort-to-declare-trump-impeachment-trial

 

[gmase]

You lost me there. What is the free stuff being handed out? And to who? And, forgive me if I misinterpreted something, but are you suggesting that an overabundance of excessively generous social programs is one of America's failings?

"What free stuff?" is a loaded question. Tax cuts and tax breaks are handouts.

What has failed here is the loss of any willingness by our leaders to say no. Easier to just keep going and handing out free stuff. Now that said a lot of your arguments are valid. But the question of how to return common sense to a county spiraling out of control is one I have no answer for.

As Bubb stated, and as my post above (#1352) illustrates, the leaders have no courage to say anything against their own self-interest. It's easier than saying "We have debt problem and we need to raise taxes to fund our spending priorities." Look at what happened to Bush #41 when he did it.

One issue of polarization is believing the opening offer should be the final offer.

 

[gmase]

This is a wrinkle: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/535991-vermont-sen-patrick-leahy-taken-to-the-hospital

Vermont has a Republican governor!

 

[D-rock]

I never got the notion of the government doing it's most basic duty of providing for the well being, safety, health, education, and prosperity of as many of it's people as it can as giving them "free stuff". It's a government's most basic and important function. Just about every other Western industrialized nation on the planet and even some Asian industrialized nations realize that. It's only mainly in the US where people have this stupid belief it should be otherwise. Giving somebody a mansion or a sports car or even a bunch of video games they don't need, now that might be "free stuff". Having people get an actual living wage and not be scarred about going to hospital when they have a health problem isn't giving them free stuff. It's what decent people do when they want to have an ethically run society that actually functions because people give a damn about each other and not just themselves. I don't drive down the road and feel bad I'm getting a free road or or free police patrols to get rid of drunk drivers, or there are free schools. It's things like that that make it so we can have an modern society. I don't just want those things. I want other people to also have those things also.

I also think it's ridiculous when people bring up the cost to deny those. I frankly don't want to hear about that drivel either. I tell you what. Lets get rid of the stupid level of tax breaks for ultra profitable mega corporations. Lets regulate medicine as a human right. Lets get rid of the tax loopholes for the rich. Lets quit spending eight or nine times as much as the next ten biggest militaries in the world after us COMBINED, and then if after all that there isn't enough to go around then lets divvy up what we can in as fair a manner as possible. Until then saying all those things are cost prohibitive is hard to swallow and can't be taken seriously. Despite some thinking the US is the most super duper awesome country ever, and despite us having more wealth not just in total, but almost in capita in the world why is it every other major democratic country in the world seems be able to pull it off but we can't?

 

[mongo18]

Tax cuts and tax breaks are handouts.

Well, depends. Tax breaks for the working class are handouts, tax breaks for billionaires is just letting them keep their hard earned money.

I never got the notion of the government doing it's most basic duty of providing for the well being, safety, health, education, and prosperity of as many of it's people as it can as giving them "free stuff". It's a government's most basic and important function.

Yup. People all too often forget that the government is your government. Government money is your money. The people who work in government are chosen (unless republicans can skew the vote) and paid by you to do what's best for you.

 

[gmase]

I never got the notion of the government doing it's most basic duty of providing for the well being, safety, health, education, and prosperity of as many of it's people as it can as giving them "free stuff". It's a government's most basic and important function. Just about every other Western industrialized nation on the planet and even some Asian industrialized nations realize that. It's only mainly in the US where people have this stupid belief it should be otherwise. Giving somebody a mansion or a sports car or even a bunch of video games they don't need, now that might be "free stuff". Having people get an actual living wage and not be scarred about going to hospital when they have a health problem isn't giving them free stuff. It's what decent people do when they want to have an ethically run society that actually functions because people give a damn about each other and not just themselves. I don't drive down the road and feel bad I'm getting a free road or or free police patrols to get rid of drunk drivers, or there are free schools. It's things like that that make it so we can have an modern society. I don't just want those things. I want other people to also have those things also.

I also think it's ridiculous when people bring up the cost to deny those. I frankly don't want to hear about that drivel either. I tell you what. Lets get rid of the stupid level of tax breaks for ultra profitable mega corporations. Lets regulate medicine as a human right. Lets get rid of the tax loopholes for the rich. Lets quit spending eight or nine times as much as the next ten biggest militaries in the world after us COMBINED, and then if after all that there isn't enough to go around then lets divvy up what we can in as fair a manner as possible. Until then saying all those things are cost prohibitive is hard to swallow and can't be taken seriously. Despite some thinking the US is the most super duper awesome country ever, and despite us having more wealth not just in total, but almost in capita in the world why is it every other major democratic country in the world seems be able to pull it off but we can't?

💯

We can't pull it off because we are stuck with some 'ideal' of the past which is not true. Everyone forgets that oil was a new industry once. How many railroad workers lost their jobs on steam or coal burning engines? Instead of forward-looking visions, many are happy hearing about making America great again. Let's make America great for 'all'.

Well, depends. Tax breaks for the working class are handouts, tax breaks for billionaires is just letting them keep their hard earned money.

Exactly! It's all in the marketing. The bottom line: Tax breaks for billionaires are handouts. Corporate tax breaks are handouts. The military-industrial complex is a handout.

 

[gmase]

Why not? https://thehill.com/homenews/campai...s-who-testified-at-michigan-hearing-says-shes

Going viral after giving a lie-filled rant is qualification enough for some.

 

[gmase]

This one is priceless. Oh the hypocrisy!
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...rd-rejects-request-for-arizona-gop-race-audit

Ward (AZ GOP Chair) said. “And you certainly don’t allow a challenger who lost an election to demand something that they don’t have the right to, and we don’t have the responsibility for providing.”

 

[gmase]

It's time to call Giuliani & Company: https://thehill.com/homenews/news/536641-top-trump-impeachment-lawyer-bowers-leaves-team-report

Trump wants to triple down on the election fraud issue. He still believes in the Big Lie.