ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Eh, that's usually what people do after they say "I agree with you", so I just assumed.
Who Do You Blame For Job Losses?
- Thread starter HeyFellas
- Start date
Eh, that's usually what people do after they say "I agree with you", so I just assumed.
E) A Global Economy
Pressing the nuke button (again), then not getting my point at all ...
I mean, why-oh-why do people bring up entertainment-related salaries? They are not remotely "real world." Sigh.
But what you see and think a nurse does is not what a nurse does. There are far greater liabilities at work. I'll also use a licensed engineer as an example as well here.
A lot of times people bitch about an engineer charging $200/hr to sign off on something, especially since they never meet him. They'll bitch about how the city "forces" them to do such, and that it's a "tax" they don't need. If you think that's all the engineer does, think again!
Same deal with nurses. In any medical location, you have two types of licensed professionals who are accountable to the public, nurses and doctors. At their facilities, if any technician fucks up, if any paper pusher gives the wrong chart, the nurse and/or doctor is not merely just liable in any civil suit, but the state-backed licensing board can and will bring action against them, possibly even criminal negligence. It's called "negligence" for a reason, not "intentional." It's that level of liability, not even "manager" like, but well, well beyond.
I've seen it first-hand with my father, who is a licensed civil engineer. Over his career, people have fucked up, bad, I mean really stupidly. They've used his seal without getting his sign-off, like when he's been out-of-town or otherwise unreachable to get something pushed out. Nearly every time, it works out, nothing was wrong. A few times, my father caught their mistakes after-the-fact, made sure they were corrected, and re-issued it. But in one case, my father had already broken ties with another firm (he owned his own business), and they took on some additional work off of a joint project. They misrepresented my father as being on the project, clearly fraud. And because my father was the only licensed professional involved, he was the only one the state could go after, so the client made it about him.
My father didn't even know about it, until the job was done wrong and then, almost immediately ...
- His license had action pending, and his file stated such (which would show up to anyone who tried to hire him for most any work)
- The state (public funds) brought suit against my father, no cost to the client he never even knew about
- He had to prove he had nothing to do with it, after-the-fact, essentially guilty until he proves to the board of his peers that he was innocent
- Peers don't like "bad apples" in their mix, so if you don't have integrity in front of a state licensing board, your career is permanently over, and that thread is horrible to see in action, first-hand
Because engineers are licensed, they are accountable to the public. You can pick up the phone and call the state and they will take it from there. I'm not talking things as simple as a real estate license or such, I'm talking engineering, law, medicine, the ones of 5-10+ years education+experience to even get it, with 6+ month review processes at several stages.
It took a good 6 months for my father to be cleared. But it was a bitch for awhile. And in the end, he still got a probationary slap, which was stuck to his file for a year (and cost him business all that year). To this day, I don't understand that, and several people on the board were outspoken against the probation for good reason. I think they were using him as an example to other engineers on ensuring that any time you have such a break with a firm out of ethical issues, you go beyond just breaking the relationship, but you report it so they cannot continue. My father was just trying to get out but not screw over the other firm, even if they were unethical SoBs, and so damn wish he would have. Oh, I remember those conversations with them when this was going on, some people are more than willing to take good people and fuck them over because they are not liable (although there were still issues of fraud they had to answer for), all while people like my father was.
Medical is the same way. It's beyond being personally and professionally accountable. It's about serving the public's trust. You will forfeit your own livelihood to enforce statues. The statues are written by peers. When you cross those statues, even if unintentionally, those peers take issue. And it could be the end of your career, regardless of how honest of a person you are. It's no longer just about you.
I've talked at end about this with why Environmental Engineering was licensed by the '80s, and how it improved environment policy for states far more than any legislation. Because you get both the engineers writing the statues and holding each other accountable under the threat of criminal negligence, so the "threat of getting fired" is nothing that bothers you, especially since any company that does such won't be able to find anyone else and won't get any work that requires licensed engineers for that matter.
Is it the nurse? LPN or RN? Or some technician?
In any case, if you see mistakes, report them! Even if they are by a technician, the LPN, RN, MD, etc... are liable for those mistakes. You need to report them. Peer medical professionals want you to report them, because they affect everyone else who is licensed. So if you've had bad experiences with a few nurses and/or a few medical offices, then the state board wants to know about it!
The state will take it from there, no cost to you. That's why we license them. It's a public safety requirement. Peers do not take kindly to peers who diminish the respect of the license that others value and put their trust in, and when it's about such professions where criminal negligence is a regular accusation it's damn serious.
Now, and I mean this with the utmost respect, if you're just saying "they make mistakes" because ... well ... you don't think it's "fair," then, again, no offense, shut the fuck up. You don't go around just saying things like that! You're fucking with people's livelihoods. I'm not talking their job. I mean you're going to destroy their entire career by being so loose with words. You'll flush all that education, experience, licensing, peer-review, etc... down the drain. For what? Because you didn't think they were any different?
You have no idea of the liability difference! Shut up. Again, I'm not saying this to be rude. But I still cannot believe you said something like that!
I said this before and I'll say it again and again and again, don't treat licensed engineering, law and medical professionals as "just any other worker" in this world. They are not. They are people entrusted with the public's safety, and that's a really, really heavy weight on your career.
It's the #1 reason why I have not bothered with keeping an engineering license. I don't want the liability. I don't get much of any work that requires a PE, I never did, so I just didn't bother to hold the license. If I hold a PE, people can use the state to harass me. Not worth it. I get asked if I'm a current, licensed PE regularly, and I'm like "hell no, I don't want the liability unless people are going to pay me for it." I can deal with multi-million dollar civil liability. But all I need is the state bearing down on me for some criminal negligence because someone else fucked up that I had nothing to do with it, but I'm a PE so I'm the guy they can use the state to go after me.
I mean, as often as at least once per year, someone gets pissed off about the amount they paid for the work my father did, which was excellent. Most of the time, it had nothing to do with my father, but the state's requirement and my father was the engineer involved. They'd make a complaint. And the board gets tired of dealing with that shit. And every damn time we'd confront the client after my father was cleared (for legal reasons, never during), and it was always the same. "Oh, I didn't realize ..."
That's you my friend. Don't go around saying your nurse(s) make(s) mistakes unless they really do! And then, report it to the state medical licensing board. Even if it's a tech at a location, report it. Even though the tech cannot be held liable, the nurses and/or doctors failing to ensure things can be, and that's why the liability exists. To avoid the "finger pointing" non-sense. "The buck stops" with the LPN, RN, MD, etc..., regardless of who did it in the office.
No offense, but this really lowers my opinion of you. You went from making a value judgement on salary, then making a laughable analogy to entertainment (God, wow, okay), which I could excuse (and laugh at with regards to the second), to accusing nurses of making mistakes. Now if you'd like to clarify what you mean by "mistake," I'm all ears. But, and no offense, when some of us professionals "make mistakes," it's our career.
Again, and I cannot emphasize this enough, I am tired of people making false reports of licensed engineering, law and medical professionals because they had a pricing dispute, not an actual claim of negligence or other issue with protecting public safety. That's what the boards are for, not petty bullshit. You did the 1-2 right there that is exactly the problem. That attitude.
I mean, do you carry the standard $2M liability insurance that even just small-time consulting engineers do? I won't even bother talking about the amounts and rates that nurses, let alone doctors, do. Seriously dude, that's the difference. That's why $20/hr is not atypical, and probably low for the sheer liability and responsibility of being a LPN or RN. Honestly dude, I cannot believe you even went there.
And the "mistakes" comment, I honestly hope you clarify that. Because, well, as someone who has served our country, you should know about the dangers of making assumptions of what people do and others assuming what they do. I'm still shocked you'd not value what a nurse is as far as education, internship, licensing and the resulting, sheer liability.
To compare to a cook, sorry dude. Who different world of requirements. There are cooks who make a lot. But to be a "standard cook" versus a "standard nurse" -- wow -- dude, off-the-mark.
I cannot believe you even went there. That analogy is so -- he he, "out-of-the-ballpark" that its pathetic that you even went there. Sorry, had to say it.
I mean, why-oh-why do people bring up entertainment-related salaries? They are not remotely "real world." Sigh.
Okay dude, you're still missing something damn big here. I'm going beyond the 5+ years of education, internship, licensing, etc... That alone should have you "wake up" to the fact and realize that you have to go through quite a bit to be a nurse.
But what you see and think a nurse does is not what a nurse does. There are far greater liabilities at work. I'll also use a licensed engineer as an example as well here.
A lot of times people bitch about an engineer charging $200/hr to sign off on something, especially since they never meet him. They'll bitch about how the city "forces" them to do such, and that it's a "tax" they don't need. If you think that's all the engineer does, think again!
Same deal with nurses. In any medical location, you have two types of licensed professionals who are accountable to the public, nurses and doctors. At their facilities, if any technician fucks up, if any paper pusher gives the wrong chart, the nurse and/or doctor is not merely just liable in any civil suit, but the state-backed licensing board can and will bring action against them, possibly even criminal negligence. It's called "negligence" for a reason, not "intentional." It's that level of liability, not even "manager" like, but well, well beyond.
I've seen it first-hand with my father, who is a licensed civil engineer. Over his career, people have fucked up, bad, I mean really stupidly. They've used his seal without getting his sign-off, like when he's been out-of-town or otherwise unreachable to get something pushed out. Nearly every time, it works out, nothing was wrong. A few times, my father caught their mistakes after-the-fact, made sure they were corrected, and re-issued it. But in one case, my father had already broken ties with another firm (he owned his own business), and they took on some additional work off of a joint project. They misrepresented my father as being on the project, clearly fraud. And because my father was the only licensed professional involved, he was the only one the state could go after, so the client made it about him.
My father didn't even know about it, until the job was done wrong and then, almost immediately ...
- His license had action pending, and his file stated such (which would show up to anyone who tried to hire him for most any work)
- The state (public funds) brought suit against my father, no cost to the client he never even knew about
- He had to prove he had nothing to do with it, after-the-fact, essentially guilty until he proves to the board of his peers that he was innocent
- Peers don't like "bad apples" in their mix, so if you don't have integrity in front of a state licensing board, your career is permanently over, and that thread is horrible to see in action, first-hand
Because engineers are licensed, they are accountable to the public. You can pick up the phone and call the state and they will take it from there. I'm not talking things as simple as a real estate license or such, I'm talking engineering, law, medicine, the ones of 5-10+ years education+experience to even get it, with 6+ month review processes at several stages.
It took a good 6 months for my father to be cleared. But it was a bitch for awhile. And in the end, he still got a probationary slap, which was stuck to his file for a year (and cost him business all that year). To this day, I don't understand that, and several people on the board were outspoken against the probation for good reason. I think they were using him as an example to other engineers on ensuring that any time you have such a break with a firm out of ethical issues, you go beyond just breaking the relationship, but you report it so they cannot continue. My father was just trying to get out but not screw over the other firm, even if they were unethical SoBs, and so damn wish he would have. Oh, I remember those conversations with them when this was going on, some people are more than willing to take good people and fuck them over because they are not liable (although there were still issues of fraud they had to answer for), all while people like my father was.
Medical is the same way. It's beyond being personally and professionally accountable. It's about serving the public's trust. You will forfeit your own livelihood to enforce statues. The statues are written by peers. When you cross those statues, even if unintentionally, those peers take issue. And it could be the end of your career, regardless of how honest of a person you are. It's no longer just about you.
I've talked at end about this with why Environmental Engineering was licensed by the '80s, and how it improved environment policy for states far more than any legislation. Because you get both the engineers writing the statues and holding each other accountable under the threat of criminal negligence, so the "threat of getting fired" is nothing that bothers you, especially since any company that does such won't be able to find anyone else and won't get any work that requires licensed engineers for that matter.
Hold on now!
Is it the nurse? LPN or RN? Or some technician?
In any case, if you see mistakes, report them! Even if they are by a technician, the LPN, RN, MD, etc... are liable for those mistakes. You need to report them. Peer medical professionals want you to report them, because they affect everyone else who is licensed. So if you've had bad experiences with a few nurses and/or a few medical offices, then the state board wants to know about it!
The state will take it from there, no cost to you. That's why we license them. It's a public safety requirement. Peers do not take kindly to peers who diminish the respect of the license that others value and put their trust in, and when it's about such professions where criminal negligence is a regular accusation it's damn serious.
Now, and I mean this with the utmost respect, if you're just saying "they make mistakes" because ... well ... you don't think it's "fair," then, again, no offense, shut the fuck up. You don't go around just saying things like that! You're fucking with people's livelihoods. I'm not talking their job. I mean you're going to destroy their entire career by being so loose with words. You'll flush all that education, experience, licensing, peer-review, etc... down the drain. For what? Because you didn't think they were any different?
You have no idea of the liability difference! Shut up. Again, I'm not saying this to be rude. But I still cannot believe you said something like that!
I said this before and I'll say it again and again and again, don't treat licensed engineering, law and medical professionals as "just any other worker" in this world. They are not. They are people entrusted with the public's safety, and that's a really, really heavy weight on your career.
It's the #1 reason why I have not bothered with keeping an engineering license. I don't want the liability. I don't get much of any work that requires a PE, I never did, so I just didn't bother to hold the license. If I hold a PE, people can use the state to harass me. Not worth it. I get asked if I'm a current, licensed PE regularly, and I'm like "hell no, I don't want the liability unless people are going to pay me for it." I can deal with multi-million dollar civil liability. But all I need is the state bearing down on me for some criminal negligence because someone else fucked up that I had nothing to do with it, but I'm a PE so I'm the guy they can use the state to go after me.
I mean, as often as at least once per year, someone gets pissed off about the amount they paid for the work my father did, which was excellent. Most of the time, it had nothing to do with my father, but the state's requirement and my father was the engineer involved. They'd make a complaint. And the board gets tired of dealing with that shit. And every damn time we'd confront the client after my father was cleared (for legal reasons, never during), and it was always the same. "Oh, I didn't realize ..."
That's you my friend. Don't go around saying your nurse(s) make(s) mistakes unless they really do! And then, report it to the state medical licensing board. Even if it's a tech at a location, report it. Even though the tech cannot be held liable, the nurses and/or doctors failing to ensure things can be, and that's why the liability exists. To avoid the "finger pointing" non-sense. "The buck stops" with the LPN, RN, MD, etc..., regardless of who did it in the office.
No offense, but this really lowers my opinion of you. You went from making a value judgement on salary, then making a laughable analogy to entertainment (God, wow, okay), which I could excuse (and laugh at with regards to the second), to accusing nurses of making mistakes. Now if you'd like to clarify what you mean by "mistake," I'm all ears. But, and no offense, when some of us professionals "make mistakes," it's our career.
Again, and I cannot emphasize this enough, I am tired of people making false reports of licensed engineering, law and medical professionals because they had a pricing dispute, not an actual claim of negligence or other issue with protecting public safety. That's what the boards are for, not petty bullshit. You did the 1-2 right there that is exactly the problem. That attitude.
I mean, do you carry the standard $2M liability insurance that even just small-time consulting engineers do? I won't even bother talking about the amounts and rates that nurses, let alone doctors, do. Seriously dude, that's the difference. That's why $20/hr is not atypical, and probably low for the sheer liability and responsibility of being a LPN or RN. Honestly dude, I cannot believe you even went there.
And the "mistakes" comment, I honestly hope you clarify that. Because, well, as someone who has served our country, you should know about the dangers of making assumptions of what people do and others assuming what they do. I'm still shocked you'd not value what a nurse is as far as education, internship, licensing and the resulting, sheer liability.
To compare to a cook, sorry dude. Who different world of requirements. There are cooks who make a lot. But to be a "standard cook" versus a "standard nurse" -- wow -- dude, off-the-mark.
Freeones of course.
Rey C.
Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
For most everyone facing or dealing with a layoff right now or over the past year and a half, it's the recession. But in manufacturing, (in addition to the recession) it mainly has to do with foreign competition, maybe automation as a secondary cause. In the building trades, I guess illegal immigration (in some areas) has a big impact.
Even with a nominal rate at 9.7%, the "real" unemployment rate in the U.S. is probably closer to 18% now. And I read that the nominal rate in Spain stands somewhere around 20%. I'm not sure about the UK, France or Germany. But many of the higher paying manufacturing jobs here will never come back. I know more than a few skilled trades people who had to accept lower paying jobs just to have a job.
As for who to blame... I don't blame the foreigners, whose companies compete with us. I blame the whores in Congress and the White House over the past two decades for selling us out. People can make fun of Ross Perot all they want. But his was one of the few voices in the early 90's to warn us about the eventual result of NAFTA and these other (unfair) free trade schemes.
Democrats and Republicans alike voted for that B.S. Only about 38 Senators opposed the legislation. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce and most conservative think tanks claimed that NAFTA would bring MORE jobs to the U.S. There aren't enough trees on 100 acres of land to hang all of the guilty parties... but I'd be all for making an effort. :cussing:
5: Glenn Beck.
