What makes people vote republican

[bodie54]

Good post, No_Man

My biggest disagreement with you would be on abortion, though I'll grant it's a tough issue. Imo your arguments reduce the mother to little more than an incubator, and rely far too heavily on the idea that abortion is generally used as a convenience. The women I've known that have had abortions (and there have been many, including a couple of girlfriends who'd had one before I met them) ALL struggled mightily with that decision. None of them made it lightly. All of them were haunted, to one degree or another, by their decision, but felt that on balance they made the right one.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Good post, No_Man

My biggest disagreement with you would be on abortion, though I'll grant it's a tough issue. Imo your arguments reduce the mother to little more than an incubator, and rely far too heavily on the idea that abortion is generally used as a convenience. The women I've known that have had abortions (and there have been many, including a couple of girlfriends who'd had one before I met them) ALL struggled mightily with that decision. None of them made it lightly. All of them were haunted, to one degree or another, by their decision, but felt that on balance they made the right one.

Abortion is an issue that will be argued for and against until the end of time. There will always be people that claim it's solely the woman's choice and there will always be people that claim it should be a joint decision. Then, if the pregnancy is caused due to rape, now what do you do? :dunno:

My mom was impregnanted twice due to rape in her teenage years and she didn't abort either child. Speaking from personal experience (I guess that's what you would call it), abortions are something that are going to cause controversy no matter what the decision is. If you don't get one, people will tell you that you were wrong. If you do get one, people will tell you that you are were wrong. It's a shitty part of life that no one should have to deal with, but, unfortunately, we do.

It's just as bad as the subject of religion...everyone thinks they know what everyone else should be doing, when, in all reality, there is no right or wrong answer.

 

[Dootifull]

Most people end up voting what their parents voted for. Very few people make informed decisions when it comes to voting.

 

[meesterperfect]

I don't live in the states anymore and have no plans on returning.
But I can't predict the future.
I do love the country but mostly for what it was, not what its become.

I'm not as much a republican as I am an anti democrat.
Government is way too big, too in my face and too in my bank account.
Too many laws, too many regulations, too many taxes.
Too many taxes because as the monster grows, it needs our money derived from our hard work to feed on.
I know the democratic party contributes to this much more than the republican party does.

Another reason, Bill Clinton. In 8 years he did next to nothing and THE GOV grew and grew and the quality of life went down and down.
Those were the years I watched my state turn to shit and half the people I know move out of it.

Sure many hate Bush mostly for the unpopular situation in Iraq. That is a mess.
Other than that......well its tough times, theres alot of bad shit going on in the world.
Also, as the population grows, resources dwindle, prices go up, cant blame that on Bush.

I just can't relate to the priorities of politicians such as Clinton, Kennedy, Kerry, Reid, Murtha, Pelosi, Boxer, Obama , Biden and the rest.
Nor the newspeople, actors, or regular people who side with them.

I know that with a democrat in office the quality of life will continue its downward momentum much faster than if a republican is in.

Honestly, ( negative me talking) I feel it doesn't much matter at this point, I think the country's fucked either way, the damage is done, the society is almost ruined and I can't see it getting better, only..........

 

[No_Man]

Good post, No_Man

My biggest disagreement with you would be on abortion, though I'll grant it's a tough issue. Imo your arguments reduce the mother to little more than an incubator, and rely far too heavily on the idea that abortion is generally used as a convenience. The women I've known that have had abortions (and there have been many, including a couple of girlfriends who'd had one before I met them) ALL struggled mightily with that decision. None of them made it lightly. All of them were haunted, to one degree or another, by their decision, but felt that on balance they made the right one.

I understand completely what you're saying, and its true. As I prefaced, it was a decision I came to via logic, and I think that's reflected in how I said it. Truthfully, though, most good legal statutes have to arise from a certain level of dispassion. In my experience, the best circumstance is when the law is written by the mind and then applied by the heart. In other words, in an ideal world, I think abortion should be completely illegal, but then applied by compassionate judges who listen to the circumstances and decide how much emotional trauma was involved in coming to the decision that it was necessary. But even if that doesn't happen (and it won't), shouldn't there be compassion for the children who are being killed? I mean, just because you don't hear the baby scream doesn't mean that you haven't just tortured and killed a human being. I find it hard to believe that there is any situation that fully justifies that, and I think many women are haunted by their decision for that exact reason.

 

[bodie54]

Another reason, Bill Clinton. In 8 years he did next to nothing and THE GOV grew and grew and the quality of life went down and down.

That's interesting Mr P. Your experience of the Clinton years is the complete opposite of mine, as well as the opposite of just about everybody I know :dunno:

Honestly, ( negative me talking) I feel it doesn't much matter at this point, I think the country's fucked either way, the damage is done, the society is almost ruined and I can't see it getting better, only..........

At times it really does feel like we're circling the drain, which I'm sure is one of the reasons Obama's so popular. At the very least he seems dedicated to interrupting that cycle. While he might turn out to be a collossal failure, he also has a potential upside that McCain simply doesn't offer.


Bombadier - I read the article. I thought the author made some good points, but that at intervals his reasoning was a bit weak, even a bit convoluted. Among other things I wasn't moved by him using the functionality of the intensely stratified, authoritarian Indian culture to justify a desire in modern american republicans for the kind of structure they tend to favor.

 

[meesterperfect]

That's interesting Mr P. Your experience of the Clinton years is the complete opposite of mine, as well as the opposite of just about everybody I know :dunno:
.

I made good money in the 90's, but could never really get ahead.
What I'm saying is that prior to the 90's a family, even a family of one, could get by alright on one income.
It wasn't until the 90's when it became almost impossible to survive on one income, therefore work work work,stress stress stress, wups, there goes the quality of life......wavfile.toiletflushing

It was those years also when I saw the sector of society who live of the taxpayers grow and grow.....
I'm not putting all the blame on the democrats and clinton, but to me it was those clinton years when society and quality of life began going down rapidly.

 

[Nester6]

http://edge.org/3rd_culture/haidt08/haidt08_index.html


I sincerely believe the Republicans are much stronger and studied when it comes to national defense. I also am more aligned to tax cuts and especially tax cuts for businesses that are really the driving force to the economy. I also believe Republicans can get things done. The Democrat congress for the last 2 years has the lowest popular ratings ever and just accomplish gridlock.
I have no problem voting for many excellent Democrats on the state and local level.

 

[tubuler]

^ I wouldn't attribute all of those problems to the democratic party Mr.P. Look at the past eight years. For most people, supporting themselves on one income has become even tougher than it was in the 90s. And I'm not even talking about supporting a family on one income. I'm talking about just supporting ones self on a single income. Jobs that pay a "living wage" are becoming fewer and fewer.

 

[tubuler]

I sincerely believe the Republicans are much stronger and studied when it comes to national defense. I also am more aligned to tax cuts and especially tax cuts for businesses that are really the driving force to the economy. I also believe Republicans can get things done. The Democrat congress for the last 2 years has the lowest popular ratings ever and just accomplish gridlock.
I have no problem voting for many excellent Democrats on the state and local level.

The democratic congress hasn't done much the past two years because they barely have the majority and they also have to contend with a president that vetoes anything they try to pass. See list of Bush vetoes here ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_vetoes#George_W._Bush
Notice that he didn't veto anything until 2006. So the blame for legistlative gridlock shouldn't only be placed on the democrats.

 

[bodie54]

No_Man

I hear and understand where you're coming from.
And you already know all the counter arguments so I won't bother going there, except to say...

I find it hard to believe that there is any situation that fully justifies that.

And I find it hard to believe anyone would insist a woman bear the child of a rapist. To me that's just incomprehensible.

I think many women are haunted by their decision for that exact reason.

No doubt. When one is given ultimate authority one also bears full responsibility. But that's not a bad thing, nor does being haunted necessarily = being wrong. Far better (imo) to have a woman wrestle inwardly with her own decision than to have that decision, and it's consequences, determined by a disconnected other.

 

[No_Man]

And I find it hard to believe anyone would insist a woman bear the child of a rapist. To me that's just incomprehensible.

Like I said, logical laws applied with compassion. Example: A wife kills her husband to get his insurance money using an elaborate premeditated plan vs. A wife kills her husband in a fit of panic and rage when she discovers him molesting their daughter. According to the law, they're both homicide and should be punished equally and severely. According to human compassion, the two cases are totally different and even opposite. And its this exact reason that our legal system uses a jury of peers and experienced judges.

My point: just because you define abortion as murder doesn't mean that every girl who has one necessarily must end up in prison for 25 to life. The law must be flexible or it ceases to serve the people. Where it bends and where it stays rigid is for legislatures, judges, and juries to decide, but it can and must be done.

 

[D-rock]

Abortion is only murder to somebody if they not only consider a unborn baby not only a life, but also a person. I think there is an important distinction between the two. To me a "person" doesn't start until after birth. In all honesty I think most people when they get down to it probably feel the same way, where they don't consider the lives equal, even if they don't admit it to themselves. If a invitro fertilization clinic was on fire and about to be destroyed and there as a hurt person unable to get out in the hallway that you could help and keep from dying, I have a hard time believing that most people would rather carry out a container full of unborn embryos, even if there are thousands of them, than help just that one person. In the same respect I don't want to prosecute somebody because they might inadvertently run over and destroy some mold that will evolve into an intelligent, sentient, sapient, emotionally feeling species in three billion years. Now on a personal level I don't like abortion and would never want one done with a child I had a hand in creating, but I'm not going to deny somebody else the right to have it done just because of my own personal beliefs. I don't like telling other people what to do with there own bodies and, I don't enforce my religion on anybody else. Other than that, on a moral level, I consider what they do between them and God without me involved in there.

If you want to blame the fact we are no longer a one income society where most people can get by with and honest days work for an honest days pay, let alone where it's hard to even find work anymore then blame our cutthroat capitalistic economy and the mockery it has become, and the way our politicians have sold us out on it the last four decades if not more. The republicans have been more at fault with that not only in economic philosophy, but in being in the pocket of big business and the rich more than the dems. (Although despite the believe of some the democrats are definitely not blameless when it comes to things like that either. Example: see Clinton and NAFTA) I'm still can't believe there are fools out there that think things like "supply side economics" and giving billionaires and businesses even more tax breaks are a good ideal when the obvious truth about it has pretty much come and bitched slapped everybody not in the top 10% of wealth in the face after all that time.

I'm also different than most other people when it comes to voting. I think we live in too much of a "me me me, what can I get for myself" world. I don't just think of myself. Other than something that I consider goes against constitutional/human rights I'm willing to do things for the betterment of the community, even if I personally won't benefit from it or even if it ends up hurting me. Too many people just think of what’s good for themselves. Too many people are also willing to screw over somebody else to get ahead.

 

[calpoon]

Say what you want about the war, WE HAVEN'T BEEN ATTACKED SINCE 9/11 2001! THAT is FACT.

The earth also hasn't been destroyed by an asteroid since then either, are we supposed to attribute that to Bush? maybe we should attribute it to the power of prayer from all the faithful that kneel by their bedside every night.

sorry, but construing a (lack-of) effect to be the result of a cause to which all probability attests may very well be entirely random coincidence is not the way that thinking people operate.

Let me put it this way, there wasn't a terrorist attack on the nation for seven years before 2001 and seven years before the War On Terror; nor was there one in the following seven years under the program, so it seems just as likely that the two have zero relationship to each other.

 

[Roughneck]

Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies?

Well, like, in your opinion dude.

I personally can't understand why people think there is a difference between Republican and Democrat - they are both parties which are pro-State, pro-government, pro-militarism, anti-liberty. There is no measurable difference.

cheers,

 

[Roughneck]

And I find it hard to believe anyone would insist a woman bear the child of a rapist. To me that's just incomprehensible.

Is it the fault of the child it was conceived through rape?

Just asking.

cheers,
R. (who is "marginally" pro-choice. Marginally... because despite being older than dirt he cannot make up his mind if abortion is right or wrong).

 

[AFA]

And just exactly WHO is gonna pay for those "windfall Profits"? That is a BS term by the way, no such thing.

ONE thing is for sure, The oil companies are NOT gonna take it lying down, you and I will pay for that with higher gas prices.

It's been proven over and over that LOWER taxes lead to a BETTER economy.

Say what you want about the war, WE HAVEN'T BEEN ATTACKED SINCE 9/11 2001! THAT is FACT.

The same things are said over and over again while facts that take a little bit more thought and less rhetoric are ignored.

The oil companies have a great many lobbyists and that's why we are where we are right now. Politicians bragging about their oil connections is a pretty obvious tip that all is not right in the world.

9/11 was not the result of actions by Iraqis, so why are we there "temporarily" while building the largest permanent US bases ever? It is pretty well known Iraqi involvement and as a threat was distorted completely right after 9/11. I agree with the people who feel every publicized emphasis on new airport security for example is just to show action is being taken. Bin Laden's smartest move is to do nothing while the US bankrupts itself. (It already did some time ago before graciously giving us back our $600 tax boost). Because of that my taxes went from 33% to what? 30%? Big deal, every food item I buy went up. So how do I pay back my part of the $7 Trillion budget gap?

Like everyone managing a household, I know that I have to balance the budget or am in big trouble. The state, and federal governments will be right there to take it from you if you pile up excessive debt, so whether taxes go up or not, it's to pay back the debt already out of control. In the case of the world stage, (and US history), you can't go on with gunboat diplomacy forever, it just isn't going to work.

You know that John Wayne wasn't really a good guy right? :dunno:

 

[bodie54]

According to the law, they're both homicide and should be punished equally and severely.

This isn't my forte but aren't they usually punished differently under the law, with premeditated murder carrying the stiffer punishment?

Is it the fault of the child it was conceived through rape?

Just asking.

No RN of course it's not.

Nor is the mother at fault (imo) for not wanting to bear a child conceived in violence.

 

[Roughneck]

No RN of course it's not.

Nor is the mother at fault (imo) for not wanting to bear a child conceived in violence.

Yes, but the mother isn't the one paying for it with her life.

Don't get me wrong - like I mentioned earlier, I'm marginally pro-choice. Somedays I'm the opinion that "whatever the cause maybe, it's no fault of the child and it shouldn't have to pay in order for someone else to feel better".... and on other days I'm of the opinion "yeah, I'm opposed to it but do I have the right to force someone else on what to do with their bodies?"

Abortion is a moral question I have never been able to satisfactorily resolve, despite having wrestled with my conscience for over 45-50 years...(and especially after my children were born).

The only answer I can satisfactorily agree with so far is:
1. There should be no "one size fits all" 'Abortion Law' - be it pro-choice or pro-life.
2. This is a question strictly for the woman in question, her loved one and her physician.
3. I strongly support/favor adoption over abortion... but I cannot in good conscience support banning abortion all together (see point #1).

I think the key lies in community and personal education, stressing responsibility (safe sex, avoid unwanted pregnancies etc.) so that the issue of "abortion" doesn't rise at all.


cheers,

 

[No_Man]

This isn't my forte but aren't they usually punished differently under the law, with premeditated murder carrying the stiffer punishment?

Yes, but the very question of premeditation is almost always a judgement call by the jury (or grand jury, in some states). Very, very rarely are people dumb enough to actually record themselves on camera saying, "I plan to kill my husband for the following reasons and in the following method..." Most of the time, the jury has to weigh the evidence in order to conclude exactly how and why the murder occurred. Was it planned a month in advance? An hour in advance? 5 minutes in advance? Was it due to greed? Revenge? Manipulation? Mental defect? Emotional trauma?

For example, a wife who has endured decades of physical and emotional abuse by her husband might plan his murder for weeks, and yet be convicted of the least severe degree of manslaughter. At the same time, a man might bring a gun to a convenience store robbery, shoot the clerk in a sudden panic, and be convicted of premeditated murder (murder in the course of an armed robbery is automatically premeditated in most states, regardless of intent). The wife is given a flexible punishment, while the robber is punished by the letter of the law, both based on the circumstances of their crime.

Yes, we've legislated the types of punishment each method and cause carry with them, but its up to the jury (or grand jury) to decide which one applies in any given case. How much should the emotional trauma of the wife mitigate her crime? Should the full extent of the statute be carried out regardless of intent? So this is, again, a case where the definition of "premeditated" (like that of "abortion") implies a rigidity that the actual execution of the law finds more flexible.