What do ALL American warmongering windbags have in common?

[darthtexan]

Did you really just use Neo-Con and Intellectual in the same sentence?...LOL...that's the joke of the century.....wait, you called John McCain a NeoCOn Intellectual, now that is the funniest thing I think I have ever heard in my life, what kind of drugs are you on?

Oh and its not a fucking joke to use liberals like Paul Krugman and intellecutal in the same sentence? The same Paul Krugman who believes the economy improves when whe have a hurricane or an earthquake? That's the fucking joke of the century.

 

[darthtexan]

Oh yeah, I also support the Second Amendment, the death penalty and dealing with illegal immigration unlike McCain/Kennedy. My big thing is I don't think we need anymore war. And TBH, I've met a number of service members who've done a tour (including my sister's ex boyfriend who lost his leg to small arms fire) and plenty of them have said they didn't want to be over there.

I'm sick of all the war-windbags that blast that shit all day. We've already wasted trillions - we need not waste anymore.

FINE bro. So tell Michael Ledin and Brill Kristol why theyre wrong and stop calling them chicken hawks when they have sons in the military. Oh and by the way, we are spending even less on foreign policy than we spent during the Anti-Soviet buildup of the 80s, way less than we spent in Vietnam, and TONS less than we spent in WW2. So please dont mention money in your arguments. The number one priority investment of any country is national defense. It is the one thing the Constitution explicitly demands the Federal Government to spend money on.

 

[Galactic]

Wanna see riots in the streets ala 1960s America? Bring back the draft and watch the fun begin.

Fuck, I actually agree with Jagger here.

 

[Galactic]

There's only one draft I like....


Draft beer. Drink heavily.

Fixed.

 

[Rattrap]

The number one priority investment of any country is national defense. It is the one thing the Constitution explicitly demands the Federal Government to spend money on.

Now if only it was spent on actually defending us, instead of these wars of aggression...

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

FINE bro. So tell Michael Ledin and Brill Kristol why theyre wrong and stop calling them chicken hawks when they have sons in the military. Oh and by the way, we are spending even less on foreign policy than we spent during the Anti-Soviet buildup of the 80s, way less than we spent in Vietnam, and TONS less than we spent in WW2. So please dont mention money in your arguments. The number one priority investment of any country is national defense. It is the one thing the Constitution explicitly demands the Federal Government to spend money on.

A couple windbags with little ones serving, but I don't even know if they are on the front lines. Could be engineers for all I know.


Our spending on "national defense" (I laugh at that term when our southern border is still being infiltrated) is excessive to say the least:

The United States remains the global leader in defense spending, surpassing the next closest country by more than eight times.

In a recent speech to the Navy League’s annual Sea-Air-Space Exposition, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates pointed to just a few of the many extreme cases in which U.S. defense outweighs that of other countries:

The U.S. operates 11 large carriers, all nuclear powered. In terms of size and striking power, no other country has even one comparable ship.
The U.S. Navy has 10 large-deck amphibious ships that can operate as sea bases for helicopters and vertical-takeoff jets. No other navy has more than three, and all of those navies belong to pure allies or friends. Our Navy can carry twice as many aircraft at sea as all the rest of the world combined.
The U.S. has 57 nuclear-powered attack and cruise missile submarines – again, more than the rest of the world combined.
Seventy-nine Aegis-equipped combatants carry roughly 8,000 vertical-launch missile cells. In terms of total missile firepower, the U.S. arguably outmatches the next 20 largest navies.
All told, the displacement of the U.S. battle fleet – a proxy for overall fleet capabilities – exceeds, by one recent estimate, at least the next 13 navies combined, of which 11 are our allies or partners.
Those numbers focus only on the Navy, but extreme examples like these span every branch of the Department of Defense.

http://armscontrolcenter.org/policy/securityspending/articles/US_vs_Global/

If you don't see this you are just plain mistaken.

 

[Ike Stain]

I know. My dad's friend said all he had to do was apply for college, make the grades and he was scott free. Then he just went into the reserves and he didn't have to go to that foreign nation and get dismembered.

Rangle tried to introduce legislation not long ago to reinstate the draft, for the sole purpose that there would be a mass uprising against the war from the younger Americans. I can see the logic. One way or another, I am getting shipped off to "basic" if they reinstate it for sure. I wouldn't mind shooting an M4 for a while, but I'll pass on losing my legs to an IED in Iran.

I hear you, brother. In my opinion it's always workers fighting workers while the fat cats keep drawing those big checks.

But you're pretty smart so they'd likely have jobs for you that didn't involve face-to-face with IEDs. While I know one guy who served in Vietnam as a sniper doing "political work" (he slept outside for a year when he got back,) I also knew guys who spent the whole war stationed in a missile silo. My buddy has a friend who apparently spent the whole war stationed in Alps, skiing every day. The military can be crazy like that.

 

[Jenkum]

FINE bro. So tell Michael Ledin and Brill Kristol why theyre wrong and stop calling them chicken hawks when they have sons in the military. Oh and by the way, we are spending even less on foreign policy than we spent during the Anti-Soviet buildup of the 80s, way less than we spent in Vietnam, and TONS less than we spent in WW2. So please dont mention money in your arguments. The number one priority investment of any country is national defense. It is the one thing the Constitution explicitly demands the Federal Government to spend money on.

Michael Ledeen and Bill kristol are both scumbag Israel-Firsters, they only care about themselves and Israel. They dont give a fuck about the USA, or the US citizens. Let them fight their own wars, it's time that Americans stop killing and getting killed to further the agenda of Non-Americans.

 

[Pattheprovo]

Meh military industrial complex. Fucking grinding wheel. Your lucky if your stationed in an allied nation. Handy as fuck.(wonder what sorts are cushioned) Other options involved IEDs and insurgents taking pot shots at you.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

Meh military industrial complex. Fucking grinding wheel. Your lucky if your stationed in an allied nation. Handy as fuck.(wonder what sorts are cushioned) Other options involved IEDs and insurgents taking pot shots at you.

I imagine the foreign poontang would be proper no matter where we would be stationed. You know all the ladies love us 'merican boys.

 

[Will E Worm]

None of them is going to get drafted.

Also, they have never been in the military.

Bush, Clinton, Obama, were never in the military.

Actually, the moral of this thread is the question: Do you all see a draft in America's foreseeable future?

Obongo wants to have forced military service. That is un-American. :nono:

 

[Jagger69]

Obongo wants to have forced military service.

Watching too much johnsreport methinks, Will.

 

[Will E Worm]

Watching too much johnsreport methinks, Will.

No.

He has said he wants people to have to serve in the military.

 

[Supafly]

I hear you, brother. In my opinion it's always workers fighting workers while the fat cats keep drawing those big checks.

But you're pretty smart so they'd likely have jobs for you that didn't involve face-to-face with IEDs. While I know one guy who served in Vietnam as a sniper doing "political work" (he slept outside for a year when he got back,) I also knew guys who spent the whole war stationed in a missile silo. My buddy has a friend who apparently spent the whole war stationed in Alps, skiing every day. The military can be crazy like that.

Here in Germany, the 'Bundeswehr' (German Armed Forces) used to be a real summer camp for many guys for long years. Until the politics changed and they actually had to go to other countries and actually fight people.

There were special forces teams who did that a lot, but pretty much under hush-hush conditions, but a majority was, after boot camp, which is 6 months of hell, have lazy jobs.

Now we are in several other countries, and soldiers actually die

German Overview on where we have soldiers

On the US soldiers here, most of them sit at the Frankfurt area, like, the Rammstein air base (Yeah, that band named themselves after that base, where a big, fatal air show crash happend years ago)

 

[monicasilver]

Good thread.

I think Mitt is reading the people wrong. Attacking Obama on being too soft probably will not play out. People are tired of Afghanistan and Iraq. Bin Laden was caught under Obama's watch and the drone program is more productive than ever. I see posts on the Internet about North Korea and Iran. I'd like to just take a breather and let our boys heal.

 

[cindy CD/TV]

Good thread.

I think Mitt is reading the people wrong. Attacking Obama on being too soft probably will not play out. People are tired of Afghanistan and Iraq. Bin Laden was caught under Obama's watch and the drone program is more productive than ever. I see posts on the Internet about North Korea and Iran. I'd like to just take a breather and let our boys heal.

Agreed, Monica, except for one thing...
Our enemies aren't going to sit idly by and ALLOW us take a breather and heal, unfortunately. Islamic extremists and Iran and North Korea all would like to see bad things happen to the United States. 1) N. Korea, for all of its bluster, won't dare lift a finger without say-so from China. 2) Iran is cleverly playing for time (it rattles its saber to get attention, then does a mea culpa and promises to return to the negotiating table) while working to complete its nuclear program. 3) Worst of all, Islamic extremists are more than fanatical enough to smuggle a nuke up the East River and vaporize much of New York City -- they have the motivation but lack the means. Iran, however, lacks the will to confront the U.S. directly -- i.e., they lack the motivation. But they could develop a nuke and give it to one of their proxy elements who do have the motivation to martyr themselves by blowing up a U.S., Israeli or European city.

We all want these wars to go away, to get our warriors out of harm's way at long last. But sadly that's not the world we live in. We, as a country, are in greater peril now than we ever were during the mid- to late Cold War. Despite all the tensions with the Soviet Union, they didn't want to be obliterated by nukes any more than we did. Neither side was crazy enough to "push the button." Terrorists think on a different level. They BELIEVE, wholeheartedly, that sacrificing their lives by killing their infidel enemies is an instant ticket to Paradise and 70 virgins, etc. People who aren't afraid to die, or sacrifice the lives of countless others along the way, are very, VERY dangerous. As war-weary as we all are, we can't stop. We can't afford to. This conflict against Islamic extremism isn't even close to being over. The locations and the names of the enemies may change, but the war will go on and on. For years. Maybe decades.

 

[monicasilver]

Agreed, Monica, except for one thing...
Our enemies aren't going to sit idly by and ALLOW us take a breather and heal, unfortunately. Islamic extremists and Iran and North Korea all would like to see bad things happen to the United States. 1) N. Korea, for all of its bluster, won't dare lift a finger without say-so from China. 2) Iran is cleverly playing for time (it rattles its saber to get attention, then does a mea cupla and promises to return to the negotiating table) while working to complete its nuclear program. 3) Worst of all, Islamic extremists are more than fanatical enough to smuggle a nuke up the East River and vaporize much of New York City -- they have the motivation but lack the means. Iran, however, lacks the will to confront the U.S. directly -- i.e. they lack the motivation. But they could develop a nuke and give it to one of their proxy elements who do have the motivation to martyr themselves by blowing up a U.S., Israeli or European city.

We all want these wars to go away, to get our warriors out of harm's way at long last. But sadly that's not the world we live in. We, as a country, are in greater peril now than we ever were during the mid- to late Cold War. Despite all the tensions with the Soviet Union, they didn't want to be obliterated by nukes any more than we did. Neither side was crazy enough to "push the button." Terrorists think on a different level. They BELIEVE, wholeheartedly, that sacrificing their lives by killing their infidel enemies is an instant ticket to Paradise and 70 virgins, etc. People who aren't afraid to die, or sacrifice the lives of countless others along the way, are very, VERY dangerous. As war-weary as we all are, we can't stop. We can't afford to. This conflict against Islamic extremism isn't even close to being over. The locations and the names of the enemies may change, but the war will go on and on. For years. Maybe decades.

We don't disagree on this. (pardon the double negative) I'm just a little less sure than you are.

 

[Rattrap]

I hear this a lot. I'm going to ask some key - and serious - questions to some of your points:

Agreed, Monica, except for one thing...
Our enemies aren't going to sit idly by and ALLOW us take a breather and heal, unfortunately. Islamic extremists and Iran and North Korea all would like to see bad things happen to the United States.

Why?

3) Worst of all, Islamic extremists are more than fanatical enough to smuggle a nuke up the East River and vaporize much of New York City -- they have the motivation but lack the means.

Why do they have the motivation?

We, as a country, are in greater peril now than we ever were during the mid- to late Cold War.

Why? And what role might have the US played in creating our own peril?

Terrorists think on a different level. They BELIEVE, wholeheartedly, that sacrificing their lives by killing their infidel enemies is an instant ticket to Paradise and 70 virgins, etc. People who aren't afraid to die, or sacrifice the lives of countless others along the way, are very, VERY dangerous. As war-weary as we all are, we can't stop. We can't afford to. This conflict against Islamic extremism isn't even close to being over. The locations and the names of the enemies may change, but the war will go on and on. For years. Maybe decades.

Religious extremism is incredibly dangerous, no doubt; it isn't, however, the main driving force - it's but a tool for the shepherds to heard the sheep to arms. What motivates the shepherds? Nationalism. The Tigers of Tamil of Sri Lanka, for example, are a secular group, but are responsible for far more suicide terrorism than any of the middle eastern groups.

You know what gets nationalists up and armed more than anything else? An enemy - perceived or not - in their backyard.

...how long have we been in their backyard?

 

[cindy CD/TV]

I'll give it a shot

I hear this a lot. I'm going to ask some key - and serious - questions to some of your points:


Why? Because they have never sat by. Islamic fanatics have been targeting America and its citizens for half a century ... see below.

Why do they have the motivation? Because they hate us. Right or wrong. For some it's rivalry (China, N. Korea). For Islamic extremists, they have hated us since the day we backed the formation of the state of Israel. And to this day our support of Israel has incurred their undying hated. Even the moderates in the Middle East are not happy with our support and policies regarding Israel. N. Korea, in short, wants the entire Korean peninula for itself. They hate us because we have stood in their way for nearly 60 years and have tested us often over the last few years to see how committed we are to S. Korea. China hates us because we back Taiwan to the hilt. China has promised to retake Taiwan someday -- and we are sworn, like we are with Israel, to come to their aid if they are attacked. Worse, China is eating our lunch economically, holding a ridiculous amount of U.S. debt (we borrow 42 cents from them on every dollar we spend). Additionally, China is developing next-generation military hardware (much of it stolen and spied from us) that could put them on a level playing field with us in a military confrontation. Scary. China has the wealth and coerced support of more than a billion people to feed into its growing and evolving military.


Why? And what role might have the US played in creating our own peril? The term fanatical should cover that. Because that's what they are. They believe they are doing God/Allah's will in fighting evil. Again, our support of Israel, as well as our friendship with Britain (which used to hold great colonial sway in the Middle East) inflames the religious and, yes, nationalist fervor. Iran's regime has had us in their crosshairs since coming to power in 1979. They hated our support of the Shah and they hate our continued support for Israel in its struggle with Hamas, Hezbollah and Palestinian statehood. But Iran, at least, is one of the most evolved of the Middle Eastern nations. Despite falling under the thumb of a radical theocracy, many Iranian people desire democracy or some sort. They chaff under the rule of the Ayatollah and the ruling clerics. By all accounts, many typical Iranians fear that their government is dragging them into a conflict with the West that will lead to their destruction. We should pray for the day that the Iranian people overthrow their government and take control. It worked in Tunisia, it's worked in Egypt so far (but the jury is still out), it worked in Libya, and it will ultimately work in Syria. You're correct about nationalism being a motivator. That is what led to the Arab Spring last year -- Arabs as a people, not as Muslims, taking out their anger, not on the West, but on their oppressive governments. Again, if a revolution begins in Iran, we should support it fully. The time of dictatorships and authoritarian regimes is slowly becoming extinct. But the few that remain are desperate to hold onto power.


Religious extremism is incredibly dangerous, no doubt; it isn't, however, the main driving force - it's but a tool for the shepherds to heard the sheep to arms. What motivates the shepherds? Nationalism. The Tigers of Tamil of Sri Lanka, for example, are a secular group, but are responsible for far more suicide terrorism than any of the middle eastern groups. I agree that regimes often use religion as a tool to lead their fanatically loyal, but ignorant, followers to do some very terrible things. But what of terrorist groups like al-Qaida? They did quite a number on us on 9/11 in the name of religion, These guys went down with their airliners screaming "God is great!"

You know what gets nationalists up and armed more than anything else? An enemy - perceived or not - in their backyard. ...how long have we been in their backyard? Yes, we are indeed in their "backyard" and have been for the last decade. The answer as to why should be obvious. The radicals in the region brought it upon themselves. We had no boots on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan BEFORE 9/11. If they don't want us in their backyard, then perhaps they should try being reasonable, stop attacking innocent, INNOCENT Americans around the world, allow Israel to exist without constant threats of its destruction.

Believe me, I'm sick of the U.S. bearing all of the worlds problems -- and bearing all of the blame for them, too. I want our troops to come home. It just isn't going to happen for a long time. China is out there getting stronger every day. N. Korea is a total wildcard and frighteningly unpredictable. Terrorists are patient. They can wait a LONG time for their opportunity to strike. And they aren't limited by worries about collateral damage, the killing innocents. NOTHING we have done as a country prior to 9/11 has warranted, justified the bloodshed visited upon us. We didn't start invading Middle Eastern nations until AFTER we were attacked on our own soil. In the first Gulf War, we drove AWAY an invader. If anything, it is WE who should be hating THEM for the decades of blood and death and fear. They take out their grievances against our policies and our government by hijacking our passenger planes, beheading our journalists (like Daniel Pearl, a Jew) and bombing and gunning down people who are just going about their daily lives. We, the U.S., spend OUR blood and treasure protecting the rest of the world that does not appreciate it. The U.S. appreciates and preserves, to the best of its ability and technology, innocent lives and foreign culture. Our enemies don't, period. So who are the true bad guys here?

 

[bobjustbob]

Scenario: We close all of our military installations around the world and bring all of our troops home. We scale down our military only to protect the boarders of our land. No intervention in any political or human rights concerns. We build an infrastructure that is totally self reliant with our own resources.

Do you think that enemies will vanish and leave us alone?