was 911 an inside job?
- Thread starter MASTERWES311
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It doesn't bother me that we don't have anything there yet. In a way I sort of prefer it. It's better that way than to hastily put something up because people believe they have to. The spot will always be there in the future. If we are going to replace them with another building we might as well do it right. At least if we let it sit for a while we can't screw it up. Besides it's not like we need a physical object to remember the important aspects of what happened there.
I'll just say that regardless of how you feel about the destruction of the World Trade Center and Conspiracy Theorists, you have to be really naive or just ignorant if you honestly beleive that there hasn't been massive and complex frauds, lies and cover-ups commited against the public by many organizations, not discluding the american government.
Just to name one (of many, even one's that I know have been posted on this board before) is the so-called "Watergate Scandal" of the Nixon Administartion. Ok, One more, how about Enron?
My point is to counter the often heard arguement against conspiracy theories: "they (whoever) couldn't pull off a conspiracy without someone slipping up and having the truth be found out (therfore, concluding that there must not have been one)." But that just seems to prove that they could and would, by the fact that they did and still do. History makes it obvious that someone's motivation to carry out a conspiracy isn't determined by it's ability to remain undetected (or in some cases, as mentioned, to be completely exposed), but to be carried out in the first place (as the above examples also show. the act was commited and public awareness about it was purposely rendered inacurate - the conspiracy was pulled off, albeit not ultimately succesfull.)
You also could not make that same argument against the "9/11 conspiracy" on account that there is clearly many people that believe it have been a conspiracy and don't accept the given explanation, and there is plenty of "evidence" that they have gathered to come to thier conclusion. It's really just a matter of what or who you believe.
I guess what I'm getting at is that it doesn't really matter, because we will most likely never know all the facts about it. The real important question is whether or not you think that someone (and depending on who) could and would do such a thing, and in light of that, how that shapes your perspective?
Just to name one (of many, even one's that I know have been posted on this board before) is the so-called "Watergate Scandal" of the Nixon Administartion. Ok, One more, how about Enron?
My point is to counter the often heard arguement against conspiracy theories: "they (whoever) couldn't pull off a conspiracy without someone slipping up and having the truth be found out (therfore, concluding that there must not have been one)." But that just seems to prove that they could and would, by the fact that they did and still do. History makes it obvious that someone's motivation to carry out a conspiracy isn't determined by it's ability to remain undetected (or in some cases, as mentioned, to be completely exposed), but to be carried out in the first place (as the above examples also show. the act was commited and public awareness about it was purposely rendered inacurate - the conspiracy was pulled off, albeit not ultimately succesfull.)
You also could not make that same argument against the "9/11 conspiracy" on account that there is clearly many people that believe it have been a conspiracy and don't accept the given explanation, and there is plenty of "evidence" that they have gathered to come to thier conclusion. It's really just a matter of what or who you believe.
I guess what I'm getting at is that it doesn't really matter, because we will most likely never know all the facts about it. The real important question is whether or not you think that someone (and depending on who) could and would do such a thing, and in light of that, how that shapes your perspective?
The biggest problem with most conspiracy theories is that almost all of them fly in the face of things like the Scientific Method and Occam's Razor. Using a logical and scientific approach to the question of was it really like they said it was you have to ask yourself what's more believable and in fact more probable according to know facts, the people who say it was an inside job or the standard view that it was a bunch of terrorist. Considering the 9/11 conspiracy theories, like most "conspiracy theories", lack cohesiveness between people that believe it and they keep using lack of evidence as arguments in it's case it's hard to believe in it. Most conspiracy theorist go by their subjective feeling on things because they don't like something or someone and argue much of their point by telling the people that don't believe in them that they can't prove what they say didn't happen. Using an example I read before about somebody arguing against conspiracy theories I could say that my theory is that all unsolved murders in the world are in fact due to mole men from the center of the Earth. After all it's not like anybody else can prove me wrong.
I believe most conspiracies people actually do try to pull off don’t work out or aren’t keep secret forever because in fact somebody usually comes forward or the complexity it takes to carry them out. That's probably why the few big conspiracies of the past have been told to us like Watergate.
Now that's not saying that every conspiracy theory ever made was wrong or it's technically impossible for one to happen. That's also not saying all standard accepted views of events adequately explain every last little tiny detail of what happened, but when the majority of facts don't point the way of conspiracy theories it's pretty silly to keep believing it because there is a small chance a small number of them might have a very slim chance of being right.
shh. you'll wake them up.
But yeah, ya know, I really don't think that the moon landing was fake, and that a UFO crashed in Roswell, but then again look at how many people believe that the Bible is 100% true. I'm not making a claim on the validity of any beliefs here, just that people seem quite willing to believe things based on very little evidence.
Like I said, it comes down to what you think about a lot of other things. But i'm just saying that I'm not going to totally write any of them off, especially one's that deal with things that are very much possible like simply killing or stealing and trying to get away with it, as opposed to unicorns and vampires.
I never believed the explanation for the sudden collapse of the two towers, either they were built sub-standard or they were rigged with explosives in a controlled explosion.
I subscribe to the theory of state sponsored terrorism so Bush could have a war in Iraq (Bush is said to be in the pockets of Saudi oil barons, who could have been wiped out if Saddam had pushed it in 1990).
Or it's the First Wave by the Mole Men.
I subscribe to the theory of state sponsored terrorism so Bush could have a war in Iraq (Bush is said to be in the pockets of Saudi oil barons, who could have been wiped out if Saddam had pushed it in 1990).
Or it's the First Wave by the Mole Men.
Come on, this sort of conspiracy-theorizing is just not helpful to anyone.
why not?
There were a few very good documentaries about this, that in my mind made it very clear why the buildings came down as a result of the impact and fires.
A while back I stumbled on an Islamic site in English that made the claim a demolition company took the towers down. I felt it was too controversial to post the link, and felt the "evidence" was very sketchy. I've also seen other information even better about a controlled demolition and just don't think it's so.
I don't think greed in this country is quite that out of control yet. Close but not yet.
A while back I stumbled on an Islamic site in English that made the claim a demolition company took the towers down. I felt it was too controversial to post the link, and felt the "evidence" was very sketchy. I've also seen other information even better about a controlled demolition and just don't think it's so.
I don't think greed in this country is quite that out of control yet. Close but not yet.
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Yes and while I would agree that 9/11 has been exploited immensely by the govt for its own purposes I think there is no way its an inside job.First they would never be able to keep that concealed as they are just not that competent.To many people would have been involved for it to be kept secret very long.
Probably was not a conspiracy. As an aside, i remember the way they 'handled' Waco - that was an absolute disaster: so many innocent men, women, and children killed. saw a tv documentary about it and you really felt for the people inside. not sure if one can call it murder, but it was a mess.
not picking on you here fri my man, just that you have inspired me to dicussion and made me think about things latley.
the destruction of the World Trade Center was supposedly plotted out (by al queda) by something like 19 people. and since half of them were suicide commandos in the mission, and the other half we haven't caught, it really doesn't seem that complex or complicated to me. You could have one cubicle in the *** (fill in the three letters of your choice) that put this one out, and then cut off everyone down to one guy involved that has the information locked in his filing cabnet. ever read tom clancy or ludlum?
I don't think they're that competent either. Other than some of the riduculous things I've seen like "Alien Autopsy", no conspiracy can hold together that long to keep Roswell such a secret. Probably, a bunch of typical bureaucrats saying "Weather ballon", that now turned into a coverup what was just stupidity.
I did post a link to a site that claimed a missile hit the Pentagon, although I don't believe that either.
I did post a link to a site that claimed a missile hit the Pentagon, although I don't believe that either.
I'm not feeling picked on lol.I have read enough of your posts to respect your views even if we are somewhat apart at times.The 19 were the hijackers themselves who all died on 9/11.The plot was supposedly hatched by Bin laden and couple of other top aides.The inside job theory is that explosives were placed in the bldg's as some assert there is no way that just the planes hitting them was enough to bring them down.I still think it would come out if an american demoliton team had planted bombs in the towers.I could be wrong but lacking evidence I think it is just a conspiracy theory.And again I say the administration has criminally fear mongered the event to gather more power to themselves through things like the patriot act and warrantless wiretaps.I don't think they did it but they sure are using it.
There might be a link to a film on the board here somewhere. A woman narrates the rate of fall of the towers as being faster than gravity I believe. They also claimed work was done on floors closed for renovations, and that was where a lot of the explosive materials were rigged just prior to 9/11.
In general, I don't think people can keep their mouths shut long enough to keep secrets. The Peter Principal says most people work their way up to a position of incompetence, and I think that's probably true. It kind of voids the scale of the conspiracy and that all involved can remain silent, and hide all the evidence. Like UFO's, much of it is fragmented, obviously fake, and it seems some whack is always the main supporter of the theory.
Another thing that gets me is on the news today they were saying they heard on the internet that radioactive materials would be brought into NYC, so they are searching cars. Now if you were looking for some fun and were a bad guy, you could leak anything fake you wanted and watch TV to see the big reaction while your friends were plotting the next real hit silently couldn't you? In the meantime Homeland Security would say they protected us again, because no radioactive materials were brought in as a result of our vigilant searching.
In general, I don't think people can keep their mouths shut long enough to keep secrets. The Peter Principal says most people work their way up to a position of incompetence, and I think that's probably true. It kind of voids the scale of the conspiracy and that all involved can remain silent, and hide all the evidence. Like UFO's, much of it is fragmented, obviously fake, and it seems some whack is always the main supporter of the theory.
Another thing that gets me is on the news today they were saying they heard on the internet that radioactive materials would be brought into NYC, so they are searching cars. Now if you were looking for some fun and were a bad guy, you could leak anything fake you wanted and watch TV to see the big reaction while your friends were plotting the next real hit silently couldn't you? In the meantime Homeland Security would say they protected us again, because no radioactive materials were brought in as a result of our vigilant searching.
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Because it is just silly, for starters. Yes, a missile was used to hit the Pentagon! And all of those hundreds of civilian witnesses in the DC/Viriginia area who witnessed a plane hit the Pentagon, they were just seeing things? (I lived in the DC area at the time, and I know a couple people personally who did witness it). The stuff about the WTC is equally nutty.
Aside from this, is there some reason to think it would be implausible for a group of militant Islamic fanatics to plot and carry out such an attack? Frankly, that sounds like something that would be easier to carry out, esp. w/ the suicidal proclivities of some of them, than would some Tom Clancy-like conspiracy on the inside.
I find it mostly to just be a big, unnecessary distraction from identifying the BS that's being perpetrated NOW by the Bush Administration, and putting in the efforts to stop them. I think the theories have been solidly debunked for some time now, and not by Bush Loyalists, either.
That said, the best stuff that I have read about the Bush Administration and 9/11 was this 4-part series:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/sept-j16.shtml
What's said in that series of articles is about as close to conspiracy-theorizing as I will get (I appreciate the articles more for the thorough breakdown of many facts pertinent to the 9/11 attack).
What is more critical at this point, I believe, is if it would be possible for the government to attempt some sort of "inside job" attack to help further consolidate their power. While I would not call it "likely" I would say that it's a distinct possibility, and one that woud certainly not be out of the question for the Bush Administration. Certainly there are PLENTY of right-wingers who relish the idea of another attack, precisely for that reason (to justify the near-elimination of democracy in the US, for the stated purpose of our "safety"). Indeed, there are those who hope and/or pray for another terrorist attack in the US, and they are not always afraid to say so openly, and when they do, the "liberal-biased" media - ever fearful of being labeled "liberally-biased" - will give them a platform for such (treasonous?) insanity. Case in point, this guy who just recently said "we need another 9/11":
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/col...___To_save_America__we_need_another_9_11.html
Lastly, those who haven't seen this (very short - 82 secs.) clip of Dick Cheney in '94, talking about going into Baghdad would create a massive "quagmire", should do so - it's a must-see, a real jaw-dropper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I
Thanks for hearing me out....
Hastily? It will be 6 years since the attack. We have a giant hole in the middle of New York (not counting the geyser thing a couple weeks ago).
Every month that it's there is just says we are a lazy people. Plain and simple. Why can't we let the people of New York vote on a design, hand the building management to the Port Authority...and start rolling in the goddamn cement trucks.
At first, I was one that wanted an exact duplicate of the Twin Towers erected. We shouldn't let terrorists alter our landscape. But..in hindsight..it's too expensive to reconstruct an exact duplicate. And I was cool with the design process that finally began. But shit..it's taking too long now.
If we can't build a building, isn't it a metaphoric interpretation of "America really can't do anything constructive in the world...anymore."
