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Ukraine
- Thread starter mikexmoran
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- news of 2014 ukraine
oh my!
You don't get it. Western politicians have to care about their voters's worries, such as being nuked. Putin don't. Scaring Europeans and Americans with nuclear war is thus a smart policy for him.
He's old-school 1st Directorate KGB, that's the opposite of stupid.
Again 100% and like the China Commies products of the "Long March" still in power we have to meat Putin threat like Reagan did in the 80's on bring it on and we will do Armageddon now and forgot about The Four Horse Men later.
BlkHawk
Closed Account
I dream of the day when pole dancing becomes an Olympic sport.
Putin is a lying sack of shit living in the old days of the so called USSR.
Ukraine says it is now battling the Russian military
CBS/AP September 2, 2014, 3:26 PM
KIEV, Ukraine - Russian military forces have been spotted in both major rebel-held cities in eastern Ukraine, an official said Tuesday, prompting Ukraine to declare that it now has to fight the Russian army, not just the separatists.
The statement on the Russians by Col. Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for Ukraine's National Security Council, came after the country's defense minister said Ukraine's armed forces are expanding their strategy from just fighting separatists to facing the Russian army in a war that could cost "tens of thousands" of lives.
Lysenko told reporters Russian troops had been seen in the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk, as well as other locations throughout the east. The claim could not be confirmed independently. Lysenko also said 15 servicemen had been killed over the previous day.
Rights groups have claimed recently that as many as 15,000 Russian troops have crossed the border into Ukraine, according to Agence Frence Presse. NATO has estimated that at least 1,000 Russian soldiers have entered Ukraine recently, helping turn the tide in favor of pro-Russian insurgents.
While U.S. officials have been cautious to not characterize Russia's military presence in Ukraine as an invasion, State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki said Tuesday Russia has committed "an illegal incursion."
"We're saying they're violating the sovereignty of Ukraine," Psaki said.
In Moscow, a Kremlin aide sharply criticized EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso for breaching confidentiality when he quoted Russian President Vladimir Putin as saying that Moscow could take over Kiev in two weeks if it wished.
Yuri Ushakov, the Russian leader's foreign policy adviser, told reporters that Putin's statement was "taken out of context and carried a completely different meaning."
Ushakov lashed out at Barroso, saying it was a breach of diplomatic practices and "unworthy of a serious politician" to speak publicly about a private conversation. Barroso had briefed the EU's 28 leaders hours after the phone conversation at a summit in Brussels - from where the information eventually leaked.
Moscow said it was ready to make public the disputed phone conversation between Putin and Barroso, according to the Russian news agency ITAR-TASS.
Putin's comment reportedly came in response to Barroso pointing out Ukrainian and Western reports that Russia had sharply escalated the conflict in eastern Ukraine by sending regular army units into Ukraine. NATO estimates that at least 1,000 Russian soldiers have entered Ukraine, helping turn the tide in the last week in favor of the pro-Russian insurgents. The military alliance also says 20,000 other Russian soldiers have been positioned along the Ukraine-Russian border.
Ushakov on Tuesday reaffirmed Moscow's repeated denial that it has sent any soldiers into Ukraine, even though a rebel leader said last week that Russian servicemen on leave were among some 4,000 Russians fighting in Ukraine.
Ukrainian Defense Minister Valeriy Heletey said on his Facebook page that the counter-insurgency operation against the rebels is over and the nation's military was now facing the Russian army.
"This is our Great Patriotic War," he wrote, using the local terminology for World War II.
Russia's Foreign Ministry dismissed Heletey's remarks as "shocking" and accused him of trying to shift blame and keep his position amid a series of defeats suffered by the Ukrainian military.
Pro-Russian rebels have been fighting Ukrainian government troops since mid-April in a conflict that has left more than 2,500 people dead and forced at least 340,000 to flee. In the last week, the rebels have scored significant gains on the ground, launching a new offensive along the Sea of Azov coast.
Efforts to negotiate a peaceful settlement to the hostilities, which followed the ouster of Ukraine's pro-Russian president and Russia's annexation of Crimea in March, have failed.
Representatives of Ukraine, Russia, the pro-Russian rebels and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe made another attempt Monday to reach an accord in Minsk, the Belarusian capital. Rebels presented a negotiating platform that dropped their previous demand for full independence and expressed readiness to negotiate a settlement that would respect Ukraine's territorial integrity in exchange for a broad autonomy for its eastern provinces.
The talks lasted several hours and were adjourned until Friday, when the parties are expected to discuss a possible cease-fire and a prisoners' exchange.
However, the prospect of talks between Ukraine and the rebels appear dim.
"We don't cooperate with terrorist organizations," said Iryna Herashchenko, the presidential envoy for eastern Ukraine, according to the Interfax news agency.
And Oleh Tyanhybok, leader of the nationalist Svoboda party, said "I would warn the president and diplomats from sitting at the talks table" with rebels.
Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on Tuesday urged the United States to use its influence with Ukraine to encourage efforts to reach a political settlement.
"It's necessary to restrain the party of war in Kiev and only the United States can do it," he said at a briefing.
Ukraine says it is now battling the Russian military
CBS/AP September 2, 2014, 3:26 PM
KIEV, Ukraine - Russian military forces have been spotted in both major rebel-held cities in eastern Ukraine, an official said Tuesday, prompting Ukraine to declare that it now has to fight the Russian army, not just the separatists.
The statement on the Russians by Col. Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for Ukraine's National Security Council, came after the country's defense minister said Ukraine's armed forces are expanding their strategy from just fighting separatists to facing the Russian army in a war that could cost "tens of thousands" of lives.
Lysenko told reporters Russian troops had been seen in the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk, as well as other locations throughout the east. The claim could not be confirmed independently. Lysenko also said 15 servicemen had been killed over the previous day.
Rights groups have claimed recently that as many as 15,000 Russian troops have crossed the border into Ukraine, according to Agence Frence Presse. NATO has estimated that at least 1,000 Russian soldiers have entered Ukraine recently, helping turn the tide in favor of pro-Russian insurgents.
While U.S. officials have been cautious to not characterize Russia's military presence in Ukraine as an invasion, State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki said Tuesday Russia has committed "an illegal incursion."
"We're saying they're violating the sovereignty of Ukraine," Psaki said.
In Moscow, a Kremlin aide sharply criticized EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso for breaching confidentiality when he quoted Russian President Vladimir Putin as saying that Moscow could take over Kiev in two weeks if it wished.
Yuri Ushakov, the Russian leader's foreign policy adviser, told reporters that Putin's statement was "taken out of context and carried a completely different meaning."
Ushakov lashed out at Barroso, saying it was a breach of diplomatic practices and "unworthy of a serious politician" to speak publicly about a private conversation. Barroso had briefed the EU's 28 leaders hours after the phone conversation at a summit in Brussels - from where the information eventually leaked.
Moscow said it was ready to make public the disputed phone conversation between Putin and Barroso, according to the Russian news agency ITAR-TASS.
Putin's comment reportedly came in response to Barroso pointing out Ukrainian and Western reports that Russia had sharply escalated the conflict in eastern Ukraine by sending regular army units into Ukraine. NATO estimates that at least 1,000 Russian soldiers have entered Ukraine, helping turn the tide in the last week in favor of the pro-Russian insurgents. The military alliance also says 20,000 other Russian soldiers have been positioned along the Ukraine-Russian border.
Ushakov on Tuesday reaffirmed Moscow's repeated denial that it has sent any soldiers into Ukraine, even though a rebel leader said last week that Russian servicemen on leave were among some 4,000 Russians fighting in Ukraine.
Ukrainian Defense Minister Valeriy Heletey said on his Facebook page that the counter-insurgency operation against the rebels is over and the nation's military was now facing the Russian army.
"This is our Great Patriotic War," he wrote, using the local terminology for World War II.
Russia's Foreign Ministry dismissed Heletey's remarks as "shocking" and accused him of trying to shift blame and keep his position amid a series of defeats suffered by the Ukrainian military.
Pro-Russian rebels have been fighting Ukrainian government troops since mid-April in a conflict that has left more than 2,500 people dead and forced at least 340,000 to flee. In the last week, the rebels have scored significant gains on the ground, launching a new offensive along the Sea of Azov coast.
Efforts to negotiate a peaceful settlement to the hostilities, which followed the ouster of Ukraine's pro-Russian president and Russia's annexation of Crimea in March, have failed.
Representatives of Ukraine, Russia, the pro-Russian rebels and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe made another attempt Monday to reach an accord in Minsk, the Belarusian capital. Rebels presented a negotiating platform that dropped their previous demand for full independence and expressed readiness to negotiate a settlement that would respect Ukraine's territorial integrity in exchange for a broad autonomy for its eastern provinces.
The talks lasted several hours and were adjourned until Friday, when the parties are expected to discuss a possible cease-fire and a prisoners' exchange.
However, the prospect of talks between Ukraine and the rebels appear dim.
"We don't cooperate with terrorist organizations," said Iryna Herashchenko, the presidential envoy for eastern Ukraine, according to the Interfax news agency.
And Oleh Tyanhybok, leader of the nationalist Svoboda party, said "I would warn the president and diplomats from sitting at the talks table" with rebels.
Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on Tuesday urged the United States to use its influence with Ukraine to encourage efforts to reach a political settlement.
"It's necessary to restrain the party of war in Kiev and only the United States can do it," he said at a briefing.
Does anybody else have the feeling by the time any of the economic sanction stuff has any meaningful effect Ukraine as we know it is going to be gone? If people are really serious about stopping this the play baby crap needs to end, and something substantive to stop it needs to happen. Even if Russia is going to extort other world powers and The West by threatening the end of the world in some ways risking that is better than letting somebody like Putin run roughshod with impunity and continually getting away with it because others are to scared to act.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
With Obama heading to Estonia to talk with leaders with the other two Baltic States of Latvia and Lithuania he needs the other NATO major players to stop the paper tiger tactics and start building up the borders with troops with all NATO troops contributing their fair share of troops (Hear that France} to show we are not playing with you anymore with your Hitler tactics with land grabbing.
Otherwise the West is looking like Chamberlain in the late 30's when he thought Hitler got enough land with peace talks until Hitler got greedy and took Poland.
But the German economy is heavily tied with trade with the Russians. Go figure as that was the major fight in WWII in Europe as Hitler had 2/3 of his troops fighting the Russians.
Obama to the Baltic States: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/w...-reassure-baltic-allies-over-russia.html?_r=0
With Obama heading to Estonia to talk with leaders with the other two Baltic States of Latvia and Lithuania he needs the other NATO major players to stop the paper tiger tactics and start building up the borders with troops with all NATO troops contributing their fair share of troops (Hear that France} to show we are not playing with you anymore with your Hitler tactics with land grabbing.
Otherwise the West is looking like Chamberlain in the late 30's when he thought Hitler got enough land with peace talks until Hitler got greedy and took Poland.
But the German economy is heavily tied with trade with the Russians. Go figure as that was the major fight in WWII in Europe as Hitler had 2/3 of his troops fighting the Russians.
Obama to the Baltic States: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/w...-reassure-baltic-allies-over-russia.html?_r=0
^^^^
PS: NATO has to come to the Baltic States aid anyways as we added them to NATO and the pact calls for defense of all.
Start the military build up now is IMO. With mobile ICSM to call Putin's nuke bluff.
PS: NATO has to come to the Baltic States aid anyways as we added them to NATO and the pact calls for defense of all.
Start the military build up now is IMO. With mobile ICSM to call Putin's nuke bluff.
The Russians have hundreds of thousands of regular troops (not counting reservists) in the European part Russia, so NATO forces in the Baltics will be out manned and outgunned.
We can match that and more.
With the 100K we brought back from Iraq means the Americans can supply at least 25K-50K in troops with the support in arms and supplies.
But the others in NATO have to add the other 75% more on our committed as Putin is on their front doors and not ours and we should not take the lead from a problem that has started 100 years ago in Eastern Europe. .
But but, if Putin gets China on his side then the shit will hit the fan big time with WWIII.
bobjustbob
Proud member of FreeOnes Hall Of Fame. Retired to
Putin hit back with sanctions. Imports of meat, fish, milk and fruit from the United States, European Union, Australia, Canada and Norway. The ban, effective immediately, is expected to last for one year. Big fucking deal. We don't sell that much shit to them anyway. Starving your people sure will drum up support for him in Ukraine.
I agree that Putin sanctions on food is nothing on oil exports in dollar to dollar wise.
But what about the Germans in NATO who might not support the oil sanctions in years go by as they are the number one importers of Russian oil.
We might need the Saudi's to go over their OPEC quoted to supply the Germans to get them to say fuck your food sanctions and starve your people with key produce that gives the vital vitamins and minerals like K from bananas that is essential for proper heart movement.
Could very well be, although the sanctions are already helping push Russia's economy close to a recession.
http://www.ibtimes.com/russias-economy-close-recession-sanctions-food-import-ban-1670980
So much depends on exactly what Putin's designs are. My guess is he'd be content with a (relatively) small land corridor in SW Ukraine connecting Russia to Crimea. At least on the surface of things that would settle any strategic, security and access concerns he might have about Crimea. I don't think Russia really wants to function as occupiers of the entire country. But what right does he have to even a small piece? None at all.
Russia would badly maul much of a NATO force stationed in the Baltics states when they invade. We would be fighting the second most powerful military in the world; we will not be fighting terrorists. The Soviet spent 20% of GDP on Defense, and the Russians have some of the best equipment in the world. The Yakovlev Yak-141 engine design was bought from the Russians. The F-35B was achievable by the use of Soviet technology.
Boeing gets much of its aluminum from Russia, and The U. S. space industry uses a large amount of Russian rocket engines. The Russians could've really hurt those two industries with sanctions.
Oil and natural gas taxes make up at least 50% of the Russia's federal budget. The Russians have made new energy deals with China and India. They talking to South Korea (not sanctioning Russia) about building a natural gas pipeline through North Korea to South Korea. And The Japanese government is obsessed with getting the two southernmost Kuril Islands back from Russia. The Russians will most likely get a new energy agreement from the Japanese in a Kuril Island deal. The Russians are doing a good job devastating their oil and natural gas export markets.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...gas-supplies-for-at-least-another-decade.html
correction: that would be SE Ukraine, of course.
Just now reading on Google News that a major cease fire agreement may be pending between Ukraine and Russia. ....
edit: but it seems The Kremlin is claiming it can't formally agree to a cease fire because it was never involved in the conflict to begin with
Yeah, like anybody believes that at this point.
Well, let's hope Russia is simply trying to save face, and will still help broker a cease fire between Kiev and the separatists.
edit: but it seems The Kremlin is claiming it can't formally agree to a cease fire because it was never involved in the conflict to begin with
Yeah, like anybody believes that at this point.
Well, let's hope Russia is simply trying to save face, and will still help broker a cease fire between Kiev and the separatists.
No one country can take on the whole world, plus us with the Canadians could always open a second front going through the Bering Sea to force the Russian to fight on both sides to thin their forces out with a third front from the Caucasus
America stills has the number one Navy and Air Force and unlike fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan where they are using guerrilla warfare tactics fighting the Russian would be a conventional war.
The Russians have most of their forces massed in two areas along the European and Chinese borders. The Russian Northern Fleet is very powerful, and we don't have many icebreakers for operating in the Artic Ocean. The Russians have the second or third biggest air force in the world, and its air defense network is second to none. The Russian Southern Military District is in charge of the Caucasas. A conventional war with Russia would be extremely costly for both parties.
It's hard for me to imagine any of the super powers being foolish enough to engage another in a broad scale conventional war. At some point the side that's losing would use its nukes, the other side would retaliate, and then we'd all be history.
Exactly two main points on costly for both sides and foolish. But at the same time NATO has to show some teeth now instead of paper tiger talks with securing the borders from the Baltic and Caucasus that have NATO members.
But America should not be relied on to do all the heavy lifting with troops and equipment as this a Europe problem.
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